OOB's

[Hard Sarge]

Boy this is fun

the English were really a Royal pain !, I can see a couple of Air Marshalls sitting around the table talking and saying, hey, you know, if we do this, that is going to drive them nuts 60 years from now, oh, that is nothing, wait till you see what I got that Polish Squadron doing

which so saying, I am pretty much working off of 4 OOB's I got, and each disagree with each other

the English, liked to pull units out of the line and then put them back and then send them off on training and put them back, put a unit on defence duties, while asking them to mount sweeps over France

so over all, I am going to try and get as close as I can, sometimes, I am going to have to change plane types to match what I want to have (IE, there are a few units that will flew VII's and later XII's both are pretty much, short range intercepters, (but, they did fly over to France everyonce in a while)

the hassle being Productions rates,and upgrade paths

then we get the Mustang, they were a strange bird, they are not recon planes, but they flew recon missions, they are not FighterBombers, but they went out and beat up the roads and Airfields, they are fighters, that do not fight well at med to high alt

so, I do not want to make them Recon units, I do not want to make them Fighterbombers, so over all, they are going to be fighters, that you do not want to use as fighters, they will be a Royal pain in the butt if used right, but...

then we got 10 group, 11 group, 12 group (13's not in the game) but shortly they had ADGB 10 group and ADGB 11 group, and 2nd Tac

not sure how we can handle this, so far, we can't pull HQ, which we could add in the ADGB HQ's a little early, but then there going to be complaints that this didn't happen until later

but still looking into things

[otisabuser2]

I would have been in favour of making the Mustang 1 units Stabs-sized, with 20 pilots in reserve and four flying.

However, will cause problems if any units later became proper Mustang III or Spits acting the the escort role.

[Andy Mac]

British old bean not English (although the English are a royal pain on that we can agree [:D][:D])

Andy Mac = Scottish [:D][:D]

[wernerpruckner]

Hi HS,

let´s bring in the A,B & C flights for the Commonwealth groups [:D]

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: otisabuser2

I would have been in favour of making the Mustang 1 units Stabs-sized, with 20 pilots in reserve and four flying.

However, will cause problems if any units later became proper Mustang III or Spits acting the the escort role.

roger, that is part of the hassle, they will be upgradeing

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

British old bean not English (although the English are a royal pain on that we can agree [:D][:D])

Andy Mac = Scottish [:D][:D]

LOL
but I think I will still have to stand with my statement, it the English that are mucking things up for me, not the Scotts or others from the UK

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: swift

Hi HS,

let´s bring in the A,B & C flights for the Commonwealth groups [:D]

No, don't think so, too much, too many to start with already

I already got 256 with a Squadron in England and a det in the Med, they did fly that way, so added it, but squadrons that were kept in the same general area, I would rather keep as squadrons

having a major hassle with the other flights set up already

from what I have been reading, it didn't work out that neatly, where we could say, A flight always did this, and Ranger flight always did that

ahhh got to head off for work, in morning I got some numbers I may think about posting

[fochinell]

HS,

As for the Mustang I squadrons, they were actually operated on a lower level of established equipment than the normal 16+2 single-engined fighter squadron establishment (sometimes 8+4, but it varied over time, of course [:)]; but frankly I think you should do whatever feels right for game balance.

The ex-Army Co-Operation Command Mustang units split into 2 groups; squadrons like 239 and 170 which converted to Bomber Support Operations (usually in 100 Group) and others, like 2 sqn and 414 Sqn which remained as fighter recce sqns in 2 TAF until the end of the war. The problem with them is that they upgraded to Spit FR XIVs at the end of '44, with some using Typhoon PR IB's, and not Merlin Mustangs.

For the other squadron complications, I'd suggest using a single rationale for the Commonwealth OB - the build-up for D-Day in mid-1944. That means the Allison Mustang ACC units go to Bomber Support ops, with 613 as a Mosquito FB unit in 2 TAF, 616 can stay out until early '45 as a Meteor unit (if included), five MAC Spit sqns transfer to 2 TAF in March '44 (33, 80, 126, 127, 274 sqns). You can resolve other deployment conflicts on the same basis.

And lastly, I hate the indepedent flights and detachments, mostly because I can never get the auto-plotter to plan recce missions with anytbing less than a full squadron. So I'll support any evil HS plan to cut down or eliminate them....

[Hard Sarge]

we working on some ideas with in what the system can handle

any other OOB complaints, needs wants ?

[Hard Sarge]

what about arrival dates ?

now some units came into Threate one, two months before they ever flew there first mission ?

the basic idea, would be, well, the date of the first mission is when the unit is ready, but alot of times, the unit was ready, but was held back, due to HQ demands/reasons

so, since we are the HQ that makes the demands, should we bring in units based as when they arrived, and let the player decide when to use it, or do we try to time the unit to come in (enough time for it to build up) and be ready for the 1st mission flown ?

the hassle with the idea of using them when they first flew, is that we do not force the player to bomb the targets on the date that they were bombed in real life

[von Shagmeister]

what about arrival dates ?

now some units came into Threate one, two months before they ever flew there first mission ?

the basic idea, would be, well, the date of the first mission is when the unit is ready, but alot of times, the unit was ready, but was held back, due to HQ demands/reasons

so, since we are the HQ that makes the demands, should we bring in units based as when they arrived, and let the player decide when to use it, or do we try to time the unit to come in (enough time for it to build up) and be ready for the 1st mission flown ?

the hassle with the idea of using them when they first flew, is that we do not force the player to bomb the targets on the date that they were bombed in real life

I'm sure the units were declared operational when their HQs thought they were ready. As the player (and hence the HQ) you should be able to use them whenever you want. The only caveat being if used straight away their experience should be downgraded accordingly. There was a reason why these units didn't flew ops until a month or two after their arrival in theatre, they weren't deemed ready.

[Hard Sarge]

sure, I understand and agree

but my question is timing and need

if 6 FG's of fighters had shown up in England in the middle of Jan, the high command would be saying, well it going to be 2 months before they are ready for action, and then 2 weeks later the weather front you have been waiting for shows up, and it is now time for Big Week

by your thinking (the high Command) this is the win or lose phase of the war, we can crush the LW now, or we may never get this chance again

do you hold back those new FG's ?

you hold them back you may lose Big Week and D-Day will never happen

which of course, that may be a little extreme, but I am of the Service mind set, and tomorrow is always the most importent day

[von Shagmeister]

do you hold back those new FG's ?

It depends, in real life you have to balance how badly needed the extra units are against how ready they are for action and if these choices exist in the game.

If a training option was included then the units could enter the OoB within a few days of arrival in theatre. They could then be put on training status to work up to operational efficiency or used straight away if the player wants to risk using a really green unit.

If no training option is included then I would say make the units operational +/- a week of their first recorded real life mission to allow for the nature of the weather in NW Europe.

[Hard Sarge]

well, yes and no

I agree, but...

the first date for a unit flying a mission, is not really the first date that the unit flew

they would fly with other units

normally leaders first and then they would add in flights and squadron size units

a lot of the training time was getting used to GB radio system and getting to know the country side

it wasn't learning how to fly or fight

[Speedysteve]

My feelings on it are that we should put the unit in the game from when the 1st mission was flown. As HS says though the problem is that elements of the unit quite often flew on low risk sweeps or with other groups to get them acquainted......

[von Shagmeister]

it wasn't learning how to fly or fight

Well yes and no, to use your term, they could fly but most of the pilots had only trained for combat, few had actually experienced it in the case of US FGs, there is a big difference.

Getting used to UK radio procedure and how things are done in theatre is all part of gaining experience and can make the difference between a good or bad mission.

If the powers that be thought they were ready they would have used them earlier.

Use the 1st mission dates, they flew around that time for a reason. In the OoB I sent you I provided details where individual Sqns flew their 1st missions with other Groups.

If you allow these Groups to fly when they arrive in theatre with a normal exp level you risk the chance of upsetting play balance, you've already said you are going to give every operational USAAF FG in the UK the P-47D-6 (which I personally feel is generous). The Allied juggernaut gathers steam quickly enough as it is without skewing it even more in the Allied favour.

[Hard Sarge]

Any P-47 C's still flying, would of been upgraded to the current D model standards

the US block system for numbering, does not change the starting model type

(P-47 Cs were not made with wing shackles, P-47 Cs in England had wing shackles, they are no longer C models)

the C went out of Production in Mar of 43, and we are suppost to wait another 6 months before the Ds were sent to England ?

for the arrival date, that is open for debate, all I want is something I can make as a standard model, so each unit coming in, can be applied the same way

I will want about a 5 day early before there first mission, to give them a chance to stock up planes and if needed pilots

now something like the 357th, it got to England and couldn't get any planes, after a while, it ended up with 15 Mustangs, and while the pilots could get some training in on flying the plane, not much work could be done in Squadron or Group flying, when it was decided to move the Group to the VIIIth, it got 75 brand new Mustangs as soon as it moved in, and there training really started

so what we really got here, is a unit new to area, under a command that is in talks about tradeing it, not letting it get any planes that the Command figured the 354th would need, but the other Command, had the planes, but would not give them to another Commands unit, and was not ready to pull a combat unit out of the line to have them change over, so the planes sat, the unit sat, until the trade was made

Play balance ? I think the game is a little tilted to the GE size to start with, the Allies see a whole lot more GE planes in the air at the start of the game then the Raids in real life ever saw

[Speedysteve]

Agree on that HS. As it stand now you can have the Axis player MASS 100's of planes and shoot down 100's of Allied planes in 1 day. Not a chance of that IRL.

[von Shagmeister]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Any P-47 C's still flying, would of been upgraded to the current D model standards

the US block system for numbering, does not change the starting model type

(P-47 Cs were not made with wing shackles, P-47 Cs in England had wing shackles, they are no longer C models)

the C went out of Production in Mar of 43, and we are suppost to wait another 6 months before the Ds were sent to England ?

for the arrival date, that is open for debate, all I want is something I can make as a standard model, so each unit coming in, can be applied the same way

I will want about a 5 day early before there first mission, to give them a chance to stock up planes and if needed pilots

now something like the 357th, it got to England and couldn't get any planes, after a while, it ended up with 15 Mustangs, and while the pilots could get some training in on flying the plane, not much work could be done in Squadron or Group flying, when it was decided to move the Group to the VIIIth, it got 75 brand new Mustangs as soon as it moved in, and there training really started

so what we really got here, is a unit new to area, under a command that is in talks about tradeing it, not letting it get any planes that the Command figured the 354th would need, but the other Command, had the planes, but would not give them to another Commands unit, and was not ready to pull a combat unit out of the line to have them change over, so the planes sat, the unit sat, until the trade was made

Play balance ? I think the game is a little tilted to the GE size to start with, the Allies see a whole lot more GE planes in the air at the start of the game then the Raids in real life ever saw

I agree that a/c would be upgraded as and when they could be. But I don't think that all operational groups on 17Aug43 would uniformally be equipped with P-47D-6 mod state a/c, more likely a mixture of D-1/D-2/D-5 standard. I don't know if you've ever worked on a/c, I have for the last 18 years (big slow ones and little fast ones), and fleets of a/c don't all get modified to the latest standard immediately (except for when the safetly of the a/c is affected). Modifications are incorporated when the a/c is due for major maintenance and not every mod is necessarily incorporated. As an example a P-47D-1 wouldn't get modded to D-2 standard then D-4 then D-5 etc. It would probably have as many mods as possible incorporated to get it to the latest standard when it goes for a major ie jump from D-1 to D-5 standard.

The amount of manhours required to incorporate mods is considerable. The 200 hours to incorporate the D-10 water injection mod into P-47C and early D models is for just that mod and thats on top of normal maintenance and operational requirements. Even a simple sounding task like incorporating a new radio system isn't necessarily just slotting the old transceiver out of its mounting tray and putting the new one in. It may involve fitting a new mounting tray and adding a new cable loom, jobs that can soon amass considerable manhours and that's if everthing goes smoothly. Whatever a/c designers claim ease of maintenance often leaves much to be desired especially when carrying out complicated mods that aren't run of the mill tasks.

As for the Axis being able to bring too many a/c to bear I totally agree. The training schools (JG1xx series) could be reduced to a ready schwarm or staffel (einsatzstaffeln), probably the same for the OTUs (JGr. West etc) as talked about in the past. Overall serviceability rates are probably too high all round for all nationalities. However the large number of Axis interceptors available is balanced by the higher than actual figures of RAF day fighters available to a two flight Sqn (24+3 as opposed to 16+2) and the number of USAAF bomber a/c available for ops (32 per Group as opposed to the more normally flown 18-24)

And Steves point about the number of a/c shotdown is valid - way too many, though this could be because of the high numbers of a/c involved rather than the combat routines being too deadly.

[Hard Sarge]

what is the point of not likeing the use of the D-6 ? all it is in game terms is a C with a belly drop tank

the C (until upgraded) could only carry the 200 gallon ferry tank, and to be honest, I don't want to give a 200 gallon drop tank, as there was more hassle to it then just saying it shouldn't carry 200 gallons of fuel

I agree with the why and why the planes would be repaired and upgraded, but it was a pretty standard thing, Maint troops in the 40's are not the same as current day

I been waiting for this one

and the number of USAAF bomber a/c available for ops (32 per Group as opposed to the more normally flown 18-24)

why ?

a Bomber Squadron was 4 planes ? 6 planes ?