Japanese Tank Organization

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el cid again
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RE: Japanese Tank Organization

Post by el cid again »

I don't know how the 'augmentation' principle would work with IJA divisional definitions. Perhaps Cat "A"s could have a couple device slots that are at 0 for most others. The JP 82mm, for example; it wasn't authorized at divisional level, but we encountered it often; or was it the 70mm trench mortar we encountered? It's very noteworthy that throughout the entire Pacific Campaign, the 81 or 82 mm mortar (per se) was not included in any casualty/effectivity analysis performed by either the USMC or the USA.

The 70mm, 82mm and 81mm mortars represent three (or 3.5) generations of Japanese medium mortars. They had the best light mortar in the world - according to one historian who did US, Australian and Japanese armies in his book (Touched With Fire).
But that was a squad level weapon - something we do now - but didn't then! For company or battalion, they used medium mortars. The 70mm is just the oldest of these - a WWI era device. The 82 mm was a Japanese development - a copy of an 81 intended so we could not use their ammunition. But eventually they went over to 81 mm anyway. The first try was too heavy, so they cut it down, and got a rather fine weapon with almot the same performance but easier to carry than most. For that reason it was popular - and you ran into the older mortars only if the new ones were not available (which was often). The Navy, for example, was only given ex-Army 70 mm, and they put them in small detachments of 2, with lots of men to carry them (being heavy). [An IJN "heavy weapons company" usually had one "platoon" of 2 70 mm mortars and one "platoon" of 2 37mm rapid fire guns - these being an older weapon than the German 37mm ATG - a WWI era trench gun. Curiously, my own regiment today has a battery of 19th century 37mm guns - almost the same weapon - there are four - and they are provided with cannister shot - something I didn't realize such weapons had.]
el cid again
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RE: Japanese Tank Organization

Post by el cid again »

Anyway, the differences between category A and B divisions, and which divisions were so designated, were a function more of the operational requirements of the day, rather than a particular divisional designation. A division could be a cat B, with a mountain arty rgt on Monday; a cat B with an A arty rgt on Tuesday; a cat B with a mountain arty rgt and a motorized recce rgt including a tank btn (rgt) on Wed; 2 cat A inf rgts and 1 cat B rgt with an R&S company, a tankette platoon and a FA rgt on Thurs; and a cat A rgt, four indep cat C inf bns, a tank bn (rgt), a motorized rece rgt, and an eng coy on Friday. All interchangeable components; all canibalized from some other division somewhere else; all armed with æàëîñòëèâî ãðå÷èõà (pitiful garbage, to quote Bondarenko).

This is an exaggeration: It would take many weeks to change configuration. And it would not be ideal to do so repeatedly. Actually, it appears that Category A simply means "standing division" -- a peacetime formation augmented for war - and Category B means "augmentation division" - a wartime formation (wartime from a Japanese point of view is half a decade earlier than ours). Category C is a late invention - a special security unit with two brigades - like old WWI divisions - for a different purpose. It really was not a division as a combat unit - but as an admin one. Its brigades each had five independent infantry battalions - each for a different district or town. But Category A and B units could be pack, draft, or what I call semi-motorized. They could have 2, 3 or 4 regiments. They could have regular artillery regiments (field guns), mountain artillery regiments (pack guns), or mixed artillery regiments (motorized and including 105mm howitzers as well as 75mm guns). They could have a cavalry recce "regiment" ( which was NOT purely horse mounted ) or a motorized recon unit - or an attached "tank unit" - and if the latter usually the former tankettes were a separate infantry support unit. [Originally based on European vehicles, they were not silly as usually is said, but were quite efficient in their intended role - weapons and ammunition carriers.]
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Kereguelen
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RE: Japanese Tank Organization

Post by Kereguelen »

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Which divisions were A-Type. Please name even one... (I've found no evidence that a division actually was converted to A-Type).

I asked Taki about this. Here is his reply:

First, I explain about Japanese division classification which is
authorized in Japan.

There were three kinds of divisions in the IJA.

Type A - Regular divisions existing in peacetime
Type B - Divisions newly formed in wartime
Type C - Security divisions

Type A and Type B were not different on organization. But, Type A division
was superior to Type B division in general, because Type A was better than
Type B in the quality of soldiers and Type A had better equipments than
Type B.

Besides above classification, there is a classification on function.

Standard Division
Motorized Division
Mechanized Division
Amphibious Division

It is the different classification. So, each category existed in both Type
A and Type B. For example, 5th Division was Type A and 48th Division was
Type B, though both were motorized divisions.

Probably we're talking about different classifications of Japanese divisions. Not sure if the IJA even used A, B, C as terms. According to various sources the Japanese designations were:

Type A = "ko" = reinforced?
Type B = "otsu" = standard?
Type C = "hei" = special?
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Kereguelen
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RE: Japanese Tank Organization

Post by Kereguelen »

ORIGINAL: el cid again


This is an exaggeration: It would take many weeks to change configuration. And it would not be ideal to do so repeatedly. Actually, it appears that Category A simply means "standing division" -- a peacetime formation augmented for war - and Category B means "augmentation division" - a wartime formation (wartime from a Japanese point of view is half a decade earlier than ours). Category C is a late invention - a special security unit with two brigades - like old WWI divisions - for a different purpose. It really was not a division as a combat unit - but as an admin one. Its brigades each had five independent infantry battalions - each for a different district or town. But Category A and B units could be pack, draft, or what I call semi-motorized. They could have 2, 3 or 4 regiments. They could have regular artillery regiments (field guns), mountain artillery regiments (pack guns), or mixed artillery regiments (motorized and including 105mm howitzers as well as 75mm guns). They could have a cavalry recce "regiment" ( which was NOT purely horse mounted ) or a motorized recon unit - or an attached "tank unit" - and if the latter usually the former tankettes were a separate infantry support unit. [Originally based on European vehicles, they were not silly as usually is said, but were quite efficient in their intended role - weapons and ammunition carriers.]

Category "C" divisions started to form in early 1942 from the Independent Mixed Brigades (China-Type) in China. They formed two brigades with four battalions each (normally five battalions came from the Independent Mixed Bde and three were newly formed). But yes, they were mostly administrative units with no or not much support units (they kept the artillery unit and the engineer unit from "their" Independent Mixed Bde as divisional assets but did not add anything else). - Not all of the Independent Mixed Brigades located in China did convert, some existed until 1945.
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Kereguelen
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RE: Identification of Motorized Divisions

Post by Kereguelen »

ORIGINAL: el cid again
But 28th division had no tanks or tankettes because it fielded a horsed cavalry regiment.

Actually, this is probably incorrect. Part of the problem is what I call evolution: units change over time. Since Joe did the work on major Japanese land combat units, and since he did it following very scholarly standards, I have tended to follow it, except where something specific has come to my attention. Some of his divisions show tankettes - and in odd numbers - if memory serves 28th had 7 tankettes - and others show light tanks - and most show none of either. He is probably right too - because (while it may not seem logical) a "cavalry" recon unit was not entirely horses! It was partially motorized.

Well, I was talking about Dec 1941 in this case (28th division). Many IJA divisions changed during the war, and some received a recce regiments instead of its (partially motorized) original cavalry regiment.
el cid again
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:40 pm

RE: Japanese Tank Organization

Post by el cid again »

Probably we're talking about different classifications of Japanese divisions. Not sure if the IJA even used A, B, C as terms. According to various sources the Japanese designations were:

Type A = "ko" = reinforced?
Type B = "otsu" = standard?
Type C = "hei" = special?

You are perfectly correct - but obviously do not speak Japanese. These are the first characters, in order, in the Japanese syllabic alphabet! You can write these two different ways (besides Roman letters like you used - called Romanji) - as Hiragana or as Katakana. Pronounced exactly the same, you use the first only with a native Japanese word and the second with a word imported from any other language.

Anyway, it is a convention to translate these characters as A, B and C because it is used exactly that way in Japanese organization and administration - to indicate order - just as we use A, B and C. Also, there is the identical implication in Japanese - that Class A is better than Class B which is better than Class C. It is a proper translation.

In a few cases for RHS I have used Japanese terminology. Some air units do not make sense in Western terms anyway - so I call them Kokutai, Sentai, Chutai, whatever they really were called. Other terms I translate literally for "flavor" - e.g. "curved gun regiment" - because I felt it would be humorous and fun to use the real name. [A "curved gun" is not like the German rifle with a curved barrol to shoot around corners. It is a mortar - high angle fire weapon. Similarly, I use "rapid fire gun" for anti-tank guns and "machine cannon" for medium and light AAA units.]
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