WitP II Surface Combat Model Discussion

[Ursa MAior]

Not just for the fun part but to actually be able to have ONE force with different taska (screening, ASW etc.)

[Terminus]

Heh! Let's go all in and have a Harpoon-style formation editor!

[zuikaku]

And lets all be able to giv orders how many shells and what type are going to be loaded in each individual turret! And lets introduce every whale, shark and fish that was historically in the theater [8D]

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Agreed. Let's have TG 58.1, .2, .3, etc.

How about the actual ability to name task forces? It's a simple text string. If they start really early they might be able to program it so it is editable. [8|]

Damien Thorn

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I'm beginning tio see that many complaints/problems are simply as a result of the system doing 12 hour phases that do not run simultainously. We need a time scale where aircraft are in the air longer then a single turn with TF and LCU moving at the same time.

Maybe the answer to many of the game's problems is to have 3 eight hour phases (one night/ two day) and have the air and sea ops run simultaneously. One ground phase a day is probably enough.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: zuikaku

And lets all be able to giv orders how many shells and what type are going to be loaded in each individual turret! And lets introduce every whale, shark and fish that was historically in the theater [8D]

Can we also throw in a routine to determine what a captain had for breakfast...or a fire control team ate? Food poisoning can be nasty...Perhaps we can also craft a menu for the individual crewman and ensure the Brits get their grog....Maybe we should also be tasked with detrmining how many apples oranges and bananas need to be loaded as well TP.[;)]

Sometimes people forget that too much detail will render a game unplayable.

[wobbly]

Just another hair brained Wobbly idea for enhancement of this behemoth.

Surface actions:

One of my quibs about them is the intelligence you gain by looking at the combat replay. All ships are instantly visible.

It seems to me we already have the mechanism to change this. How does having ships unsighted not appear and then ships un-identified be a hazy smudge or a generic outline.

So on your own side you will know you own ships, they either appear as they fire or are fired upon, or are all visible at the beginning. The enemy only appears as they are sighted and are not necessarily properly identified – it might only be class: A Sims type Destroyer (for instance).

You could take this a whole lot further:

Radar only contacts – ships are only identified as the enemy and ships stay at range or close depending on commander.

Invisible torpedo attacks – ships sight enemy but are unsighted themselves – launch torps and turn away. Target has higher chance of being hit and does not even get a sighting report of who got them.

Convoy scatter could work a whole lot better – a 30+ convoy of targets can really scatter. The ships that are sighted though are very likely to be swotted. This could get around the lack of aggression against ‘defenceless’ targets. You still can’t shoot what you can’t see, but things you can see are likely to be squashed.

Own goals – this is a tough one to consider but if you have multiple TFs in the same hex, or a TF is created by a ships falling out of line (through damage), you could even have your own side engaging them, and being engaged in return, until identification is made.

This has to be followed up in combat replays! To accomplish this, only the ships sighted by both sides are show in the replay, and ships type rather than specific ship is used where applicable.

I just think this adds real flavour to the combat replay. It is still as much out of your hands as always but surface on surface combats are the best in the game IMHO. This just really adds flavour. The reduction in intelligence will also add a “what really happened there” accent to it.

Ok – so I was bored!

[bradfordkay]

Mike Scholl wrote:
"Maybe the answer to many of the game's problems is to have 3 eight hour phases (one night/ two day) and have the air and sea ops run simultaneously. One ground phase a day is probably enough."

Beer.

[saj42]

Wobbly has a good idea here.
Now I know many don't like the current combat reply, but at the moment it (IMO) nerfs the FOW. Air search will give a varied report depending on DL, air attack will give details of attacked ships only (not others). In the surface combat replay you see the exact TF composition (with or without ship names).
Now if you take the current DL of the enemy TF into account you would see either:
fully identified ships (eg USS Boise), or
ship class (eg Cleveland class CL), or
ship type (eg DD), or
generic type(eg small combatant, transport, large combatant), or
not see it at all (doesn't appear on display until it opens fire).

FOW should mean just that - we don't have it now with the current combat reply OR the combat text file.

[ny59giants]

Improvements to avoid this on 12/16/41:

Avoid these type of combat results: Force Z against "ONLY" AP's....Yuck!!!
Day Time Surface Combat, near Amboina at 39,73
Japanese Ships
ML Yaeyama
AP Africa Maru
AP Seizan Maru, on fire
AP Siraha Maru, Shell hits 2
AP Somedono Maru
AP Taihei Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire
AP Taizin Maru, Shell hits 1
AP Zyuyo Maru, Shell hits 3, on fire
AP Chinko Maru

Allied Ships
BB Prince of Wales
BC Repulse
CL Danae
CL Dragon
CL Durban
DD Vampire
DD Vendetta
DD Tenedos
DD Electra
DD Express

Japanese ground losses:
11 casualties reported

It is going to be hard enough to slow you, especially with these results. Opened fire at 22,000 yards and close to 17,000. Then break of....for what?? Must be "tea time!!" Your ships "NEVER" fired at me....

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Improvements to avoid this on 12/16/41:

Avoid these type of combat results: Force Z against "ONLY" AP's....Yuck!!!
Day Time Surface Combat, near Amboina at 39,73
Japanese Ships
ML Yaeyama
AP Africa Maru
AP Seizan Maru, on fire
AP Siraha Maru, Shell hits 2
AP Somedono Maru
AP Taihei Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire
AP Taizin Maru, Shell hits 1
AP Zyuyo Maru, Shell hits 3, on fire
AP Chinko Maru

Allied Ships
BB Prince of Wales
BC Repulse
CL Danae
CL Dragon
CL Durban
DD Vampire
DD Vendetta
DD Tenedos
DD Electra
DD Express

Japanese ground losses:
11 casualties reported

It is going to be hard enough to slow you, especially with these results. Opened fire at 22,000 yards and close to 17,000. Then break of....for what?? Must be "tea time!!" Your ships "NEVER" fired at me....

My WitP Zen take on the above...

1. Force Z Commander was under different orders...ie Bombardment...or had orders to be at a different hex at the end of the day or the beginning of the following..."Nice to meet you chaps, but I've got to be on my way."

2. Force Z was concerned about possible carriers and so didn't want to stay in the area.

3. Jap TF was spread out and Z could only engage so many ships.

The list goes on...


Edit : Please start flaming now.

[bradfordkay]

Of course, it is highly doubtful that Force Z would have "bombardment" orders, as the Malayan bases are generally in British hands at the the time...

[Nemo121]

We need a time scale where aircraft are in the air longer then a single turn with TF and LCU moving at the same time.

No we don't. All we need is something similar to what I have read occurs with submarines, which seem to make multiple checks per turn to see if there is anything for them to attack.

This issue can be handled quite easily by dividing each "turn" into multiple phases.

E.g if each 12-hour half-turn is divided into 6 phases the computer can check each TF's speed every 2 hours and see if it would move into a new hex. As it does this all other TFs are also checked and move. Sure it isn't "simultaneous resolution a la Combat Mission" but continuing to execute a full day's orders as a turn whilst dividing that day into more phases ( with movement of TFs and planes occuring in each phase under control of the AI as illustrated above) strikes a good balance between needing no increase in player input whilst allowing for more accurate combat results.

[Sonny]

Just split the daytime into am and pm turns with naval movement and surface combat included in each phase rather than just after the pm air phase. That would be enough IMHO.

[Alikchi2]

Something I spotted that might be relevant to you on this thread.

Here's a thread from WesWorld that shows how a surface combat simulator might work through Microsoft Excel.

http://www.wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.p ... c532cf7447

[el cid again]

I go with the realism camp as Gary noted, but he still has a point. The problem is that right now those intercepts only take place if TF's end the phase in the same hex. Even if they passed each other on opposite courses, there's only an intercept if the end in the same hex.

Perhaps there could be a check to see if TF's intercept during transit rather than just at phase end.

In one of the UV mods, it was said this had been changed - that there was a chance of interception along the route of movement.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I go with the realism camp as Gary noted, but he still has a point. The problem is that right now those intercepts Perhaps there could be a check to see if TF's intercept during transit rather than just at phase end.

In one of the UV mods, it was said this had been changed - that there was a chance of interception along the route of movement.

This never was in UV regarding surface ships... we all hoped for something like that but it nevre happened...

What did happen was that in one of the patches submarines were able to intercept in all HEXes and not the destination HEX only - this is what we currently have in UV and WitP.


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
My ADSL is acting weir today - constant ON/OFF - typos fixed.

[mogami]

Hi, USN ASW TF of 4 DD under command of Cdr TR Stockard ( CO DD Leutze) assigned to patrol hex where USN AO located in support of operations NW of Iwo Jima encounters Japanese TF composed of 10xbarge headed to Iwo Jima. Japanese TF totally destroyed. .

Day Time Surface Combat at 59,51

Japanese Ships
AG AG-102, Shell hits 4, and is sunk
AG AG-112, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
AG AG-114, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
AG AG-116, Shell hits 4, and is sunk
AG AG-117, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
AG AG-120, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
AG AG-354, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
AG AG-357, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
AG AG-361, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
AG AG-363, Shell hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
DD Kimberly
DD Knapp
DD LaVallette
DD Leutze

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I go with the realism camp as Gary noted, but he still has a point. The problem is that right now those intercepts only take place if TF's end the phase in the same hex. Even if they passed each other on opposite courses, there's only an intercept if the end in the same hex.

Perhaps there could be a check to see if TF's intercept during transit rather than just at phase end.

In one of the UV mods, it was said this had been changed - that there was a chance of interception along the route of movement.

Note the combat locations....
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/08/41



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat at 111,68

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga
CV Hiryu
CV Soryu, Shell hits 5
CV Shokaku, Shell hits 1
CV Zuikaku
CV Akagi
BB Hiei, Shell hits 2
BB Kirishima
CA Tone, Shell hits 5, on fire
CA Chikuma, Shell hits 4, on fire
CL Abukuma, Shell hits 12, on fire, heavy damage
DD Akigumo
DD Kagero, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Isokaze
DD Shiranuhi
DD Urakaze
DD Hamakaze
DD Tanikaze
DD Arare
DD Kasumi

Allied Ships
CA Minneapolis, Shell hits 1
CL Detroit
CL St. Louis, Shell hits 3
CL Helena, Shell hits 1
DD Blue, Shell hits 1
DD Helm
DD Mugford, Shell hits 11, and is sunk
DD Henley, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Patterson
DD Jarvis, Shell hits 3, on fire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat at 111,67

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga
CV Hiryu
CV Soryu
CV Shokaku
CV Zuikaku
CV Akagi
BB Hiei
BB Kirishima
CA Tone, on fire
CA Chikuma, Shell hits 4, on fire
CL Abukuma, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Akigumo
DD Kagero, on fire
DD Isokaze
DD Shiranuhi
DD Urakaze
DD Hamakaze
DD Tanikaze
DD Arare
DD Kasumi

Allied Ships
DD Monaghan
DD Aylwin, Shell hits 8, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Allen
DD Schley
DD Ward

[mogami]

Hi, My USN Death Star was operating off coast of Home Islands. Daylight weather over CV TF and they encountered a Japanese transport TF of 2 AK 1 PC and 1 DD. USN escorts blow the Japanese out of the water but IJN DD hits Lexington with torpedo. (38 sys 49 flt 18fire) Lexington gets damage under control near Iwo Jima (but not back in port yet)
IJN submarines in 5 weeks have hit 5xUSN CVE (sinking 2) So I am a bit worried about Lex since she is currently transiting "sub Alley" (area from Iwo Jima south down to saipan)

Over all effort directed against Japanese air power prior to commencing B-29 attacks on Home islands has destroyed 5100 Japanese planes (Japan begins scenario with 6000)