Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

[ChezDaJez]

Chez, were those actual intercepts or just a fictional representation? My reason for the question is that these intercepts are placing HMS Warspite in Puget Sound Naval Yard on Dec 6. If this is true, then she should be on our maps on Dec 7.

Those are the actual Magic intercepts.

You can read all of them HERE.

They paint a pretty good intelligence picture for the entire Pacific.

Chez

[Nikademus]

I see no reason why USN CV's would avoid the northern coast of Hawaii. It seems less plausible at war's start that the US would risk it's precious CV's on ASW duty like the British did in 39 despite the fact that the British quickly got spanked doing it. Yet thats what we did and the Enterprise narrowly escaped getting hit by a torpedo. There's another what if for people [;)]

[ChezDaJez]

In your eagerness to get some US CV's wrecked you are postulating the rediculous. There is one rational "what if" that puts a US CV in Kido Butai's sights..., and that is if the Enterprise Group hadn't been held up a day and had sailed into Pearl on the evening of the 6th. The rest is just "pie-in-the-sky" fanboyism. Like my suggestion of KB wrecking a couple of CV's on French Frigate Shoals through a night navigation error. That's silly..., but so is your "let's say a US CV was screwing around 500 miles north of Oahu for no understandable reason".

Yeah, okaaaayyyyy!!! You have all the answers, Sahib!

Where is the fanboyism in saying that it was possible for a US CV to encounter KB?

Whatever.

Chez

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

In your eagerness to get some US CV's wrecked you are postulating the rediculous. There is one rational "what if" that puts a US CV in Kido Butai's sights..., and that is if the Enterprise Group hadn't been held up a day and had sailed into Pearl on the evening of the 6th. The rest is just "pie-in-the-sky" fanboyism. Like my suggestion of KB wrecking a couple of CV's on French Frigate Shoals through a night navigation error. That's silly..., but so is your "let's say a US CV was screwing around 500 miles north of Oahu for no understandable reason".

Yeah, okaaaayyyyy!!! You have all the answers, Sahib!

Where is the fanboyism in saying that it was possible for a US CV to be attacked by KB?

Whatever.

Chez

did you say something nice about the A6m? [:-]

[ChezDaJez]

did you say something nice about the A6m?

Man, I get called a Jap fanboy for responding to a "what if." Someone must have got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning!

Chez

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


did you say something nice about the A6m? [:-]

It was the F/A-22 of its day![:'(]

[Nikademus]

your not a Japanese fanboy though...your a Danish SPAMMER!

[Speedysteve]

He's a Cossack fanboy......

[Terminus]

Yeah, and I've got reason to be, don't I?

[Speedysteve]

Woooooo....he destroyed a Tiger with one.....only cost you about 100 men

[Terminus]

Yeah, well... At least I didn't lose a battle to ITALIANS!!!

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

In your eagerness to get some US CV's wrecked you are postulating the rediculous. There is one rational "what if" that puts a US CV in Kido Butai's sights..., and that is if the Enterprise Group hadn't been held up a day and had sailed into Pearl on the evening of the 6th. The rest is just "pie-in-the-sky" fanboyism. Like my suggestion of KB wrecking a couple of CV's on French Frigate Shoals through a night navigation error. That's silly..., but so is your "let's say a US CV was screwing around 500 miles north of Oahu for no understandable reason".

Yeah, okaaaayyyyy!!! You have all the answers, Sahib!

Where is the fanboyism in saying that it was possible for a US CV to encounter KB?
Chez

As I explained in the whole paragraph (which you edited) Kido Butai steamed to a point north of Oahu, and then made a night speed run south to be 240 miles north at dawn to launch it's attacks. To be "spotted" during the day of December 6th, a US CV would have had to be "duncing around" 500 miles North of Oahu. And there is nothing there! No convoys to be excorted, no bases to be reinforced, lousy stormy weather to preclude "training"---no rational reason on earth to be there! Except to allow Kido Butai to sink it..., hence the "fanboyism" comment. Which I compared to a (just as rediculous) postulate of my own..., that of KB running aground at night due to faulty navigation.

All I've ever said was we should keep "speculation" within the boundries of the reasonable and not wander off into the realms of the rediculous. There is no reasonable way to speculate a US CV into the position you postulate..., so the possibility should be outside the discussion.

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Yeah, well... At least I didn't lose a battle to ITALIANS!!!

Sh*t you remember that....I was hoping we'd played too many and that you had forgotten that.

The annoying thing is I can't even say i'm winning overall anymore. I think you must be a couple of victories ahead now.

[Terminus]

Heh! After Kursk, that'll probably change...

[Speedysteve]

I should think so. You have lost a lot of armour and I have HORDES arriving[8D]

T is toast

[Terminus]

Well, having 8 gazillion mines to sit behind hasn't hurt you either... Only hurt me...[X(]

[Speedysteve]

Don't blame me.

It's been obvious to Georgi and me for months you would attack there. I have had time to prepare in depth. Wittman is to be come Deadmann

[mlees]

NO it isn't. Steam north into bad weather and rough seas for "training"? Planes and pilots are expensive (as were torpedoes..., and we know where that led); why add to the risk of losses? In your eagerness to get some US CV's wrecked you are postulating the rediculous. There is one rational "what if" that puts a US CV in Kido Butai's sights..., and that is if the Enterprise Group hadn't been held up a day and had sailed into Pearl on the evening of the 6th. The rest is just "pie-in-the-sky" fanboyism. Like my suggestion of KB wrecking a couple of CV's on French Frigate Shoals through a night navigation error. That's silly..., but so is your "let's say a US CV was screwing around 500 miles north of Oahu for no understandable reason".

Respectfully, sir, it is not "ridiculuous" assumption that the Americans would excercise north of Hawaii.

https://txspace.tamu.edu/bitstream/1969 ... -Wadle.pdf

In Grand Joint Excercise 4 (GJE40), in February 1932, Lex and Sara operated both north and south of Oahu to "attack" Pearl Harbor. (Described on page 80 of the above PDF.)

Later that year, Fleet Problem XIII, units based in Pearl were to attack the US West Coast. The opposing fleets engaged in the waters far north, and eventually east, of Hawaii.

In Phase 2 of Fleet Problem XIX, March of 1938, Saratoga repeats the PH attack, from a point 100 miles north of Oahu. (Phase 1 involved a carrier battle around the Hawaiian waters between Lex and Sara. Phase 3 involved Sara and Lex operating versus "enemy" bases in the Sab Fran area, but again maneuvering out of the shipping lanes north north-east of Hawaii, attempting to avoid detection.)

The USN was not as timid in getting their ships banged up as you seem to indicate.

[anarchyintheuk]

Considering the war warning, I think that fleet exercises would have been less than likely.

[mlees]

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Considering the war warning, I think that fleet exercises would have been less than likely.

You are correct in that Fleet Problem XXII was canceled in '41. (But not because of Japan or heavy seas. But because of the fleet being needed in the quasi-war with Nazi Uboats.)

But don't let yourself get distracted. My point was that the USN was not adverse to exercising, either in fleet problems, or as individual units, in the North Pacific.