Eagle Day to Bombing of the Reich is a improved and enhanced edition of Talonsoft's older Battle of Britain and Bombing the Reich. This updated version represents the best simulation of the air war over Britain and the strategic bombing campaign over Europe that has ever been made.
I thought they skipped past the II and went to the V as the standard production run ?
Sorry for the delay in coming back to you!
The Tempest MkII started to roll off the production line in October 1944
The first squadron to get Tempest MkII aircraft was 183 Squardron and then 247 Squadron both in August 1945.
Both Squadrons were ready to go by September.
HMSWarspite Post no 14 gives the Perfromance data for this aircraft.
Thankyou
MJT
"My God, I hope you don't blame me for this. I had no idea where you were."
Air Vice-marshal Pulford upon the loss of "Force Z"
Up to you, HS, but just like I'm arguing for a reduction from 4 different P-47D variants to 2 or 3, I don't think the performance difference between the HF/LF and F.IXC Spit warrant the hassles in maintaining unit strength involved in using them. In my opinion there is a better case for including the VII (used by 616, 124 and 131 sqns) as the HF variant.
>I need more info on the E models
>any ideas on the major differences in these 3
The it's just a difference in Full Throttle Height for the two supercharger gears used in the Merlin 61/3/4, 66 series and 70 for the HF - which in practical terms means achieving roughly the same maximum speed (approx 410 mph) at different heights, from 22,000ft for the LF up to 27-28,000ft for the HF.
>didnt find much on the 21
It was the first principal redesign to use the two-stage Griffon, slightly heavier than the F.XIV, but with 4 x 20mm cannon.
The IXE model should have a slightly increased performance, with whatever maneuvrability bonus the Typhoon and P-47 get from the bubble canopy, as well as the two .5in MG's replacing the 4 x .303 MG's. Otherwise, its main difference is the possibility of using rear-fuselage tanks (up to 66 gallons) to increase endurance and range.
As for the MK VIII, I think it has a good case for existing, if only for the range difference over the MK IX (124 gals internal vs 85 gals), and maybe upgrading to the IXC as per the original Harley/Gavin Spitfire upgrade plan. If there's a low level of replacement in '44, the AI will be able to keep existing squadrons going while the VB units get first call on upgrading to the IXC.
The LF.VB is probably worth including, but it was always outnumbered by stock VB/VC's.
I think there's a case for including the XII in 41 and 91 Sqns as historically, with these upgrading to the XIVC while the IX upgrades to the XIVE. This should delay major upgrading from IX-XIV until '45, while the XIVC can enter service whenever the player wants or when the Spit XII sqns upgrade or when new XIVC units arrive for the AI.
There's also a need for a PR. XIX to appear at some point - a few were converted for Overlord, but production really began in '45, and it should replace the PR XI.
Sounds fair to me! Can you tell us how far along the games are? I'm trying to get an idea of your teams workload Plus game ETA are we talking Months or weeks?
MJT
"My God, I hope you don't blame me for this. I had no idea where you were."
Air Vice-marshal Pulford upon the loss of "Force Z"
ahh, teach me, didn't see that the 131 was flying the VII and 616 was flying the VI when the game starts
so both gets pulled also
anybody have any dates on when these 3 units changed planes and came back to action ? (124, 131, 616)
overall, we still in Alpha, once we get into Beta, we should have a better idea of what and when, but over all I think we are making good time on doing what we want to do (knock on wood)
ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
the VII would be a high alt intercepter, and out of the scope of the game as a home defence plane
alot of units that are on home defence only duties have been held back or kept out of the game
I'm aware of the home-defence only rule, but the problem is that home defence units in Fighter Command were routinely used on offensive sorties, and were indeed sometimes used to escort 8th AF attacks. This makes hard and fast rules about game availability by type very difficult to enforce without contradictions.
The botom line is that the VII was used on offensive sorties. It was used to escort 8th AF strikes on Brittany and Western France in 1944, for example. On the other hand, I'm convinced that 124 Sqn (the first to convert to the VII at North Weald in May 1943) were largely used defensively in 1943, so I think there's a good case for keeping them out of the game until they re-appear in 1944, when they were posted to 2nd TAF in March 1944 and did some 8th AF escorts, before converting to IXs in July '44.
131 Sqn were flying VC's in August 1943, and on offensive operations, converting to the VII in March 1944, by which point the VII was being used offensively on a consistent basis. So I think they have a good case for being included from the start.
On the other hand, 616 converted to the VII in September 1943, then to Meteor Is in June: I think they can legitimately be kept out of the game until early 1945, when they turned up in 2nd TAF with Meteor IIIs.
In short, I suggest a compromise: 616 out of the game until March 1945, with Meteor IIIs in 84 Group; 124 out of the game until March 1944, with Spit VIIs in 2nd TAF; 131 in the game from the start with Spit VB.
Spitfire VIII enetered service in the Med in Aug 43 with 145 squadron in Italy. Most VIIIs went to the far east but 253 Sq of the Balkan Air force also used it.
After the IXs came
XII 41 & 91 sqadrons from spring 43 in home defence - 100 built
XIV first entered service Jan 1 44 with 610 squadron - 957 built - 527 as F XIV and 430 as FRXIV
XVIII (100 FXVIII 200 FRXVIII ) but only arrived after end of war in Europe
XXI (always refered to as 21 - never used the Roman numerals- first unit re-equipped just after the end of the war in Europe - 122 built
22 - post war 278 built
24 - post war 54 built
Might want to consider the Supermarine Spiteful
Enetring production in 1945 with the somehwat bizarre designation as Spiteful XIV!!!
8 were flown but they were all broken up.
Hawket Tempest VI- variation of the V - too late for service but 142 built
Spitfire VIII enetered service in the Med in Aug 43 with 145 squadron in Italy. Most VIIIs went to the far east but 253 Sq of the Balkan Air force also used it.
After the IXs came
XXI (always refered to as 21 - never used the Roman numerals- first unit re-equipped just after the end of the war in Europe -
The VIII's began to be shipped to North Africa in November 1942, mostly via a new reinforcement route that started at Casablanca and supplied the Algerian/Tunisian front. They were generally mixed in with MK IXs and each Spitfire wing in Med Air Command had a complement of 24 VIII's and IX's by the time of the invasion of Sicily. VIIIs were being flown by 81, 92, 145, 152, 185 and 307th and 308th FS interchangeably with the Mk IX by August 17th 1943.
The F.21 equipped 91 and 1 Sqn before V-E day, and 91 Sqn did use them on offensive patrols over Holland in April & May 1945.
ahhh
I would have to relook up my notes, but I believe I found at least 11 Squadrons that were Using the VIII in the Med as there main plane, and then there were a number of others that had them on hand
which, yes, I seen that a number of squadrons used a mix, hassle in our game, it is all or nothing
so overall, squadrons that were listed as having at least half of there numbers being VIII's got that as there plane of choice
would there be a single type of the 3 I have, that went to the E model ?
be confusing to try and make a HF.IXE, F.IXE and a LF.IXE
Spit 21, Tempest II, I could make a small production run on these, players I believe would have to make the unit upgrade, I don't want to tell a planetype to upgrade to them
we made a change to the data base editor, and made a mess of my production lists and upgrade paths (it was worth it, and it was needed, but now I trying to go back over my notes and make sure I got everything the way we wanted it)(upgrades, work by plane type, not unit, so type will upgrade to type, also, since it is a path, if the next type is not enough, but the following type is, that can be upgraded to, so, if path is A,B,C,D,E and A goes to upgrade and not enough of type B or C, but is enough D, it will upgrade to D)
so over all
Spit LF.VB flys out of England, Production of 2-0-0, upgrades to the Spit IXC
Spit LF.VC flys out of the MED, Production of 1-0-0, upgrades to the VIII
Spit LF.VIII flys out of the MED, Production of 3-1-0, upgrades to the XIVC
Spit F.IX flys out of the MED, Productions of 2-1-0, upgrades to the IXE
Spit LF.IXC flys out of England, Production of 4-4-0, upgrades to the XIVC
Spit HF.IX, flys out of England, ADGB, Production of 1-1-0, Upgrades Mustang III
Spit LF.IXE, flys out of England, Production of 0-4-4
Spit XIVC (havn't worked out if it should be a LF or F), flys with who ever gets it ?, Production of 0-1-0, upgrades to XIVE
Spit XIVE, again, who ever gets it, Production of 0-1-2
Mustang I, flys out of England, Production of 2-0-0, upgrade touchy right now, as it is suppost to be a Tac Recon model
Mustang IA, flys out of England, Production of 1-0-0, again Tac Recon
Mustang III, flys with who ever gets it, Production of 3-3-0, upgrades to Mustang IV
Mustang IV, again, Production of 0-2-3
Tempest V, again, Production of 0-2-3
( I got some tricks added, I can start and stop production when I want it, so, like the Stang, you will not be getting 5 a month of the two models (got a 1 month overlap) but will get 3 III this month, and then 2 IVs the next month, same with the E models, they take over production from the earlier models, so Production of the XIVC stops and the XIVE starts)
Hmmm
so that is V-3, VIII-3, IX-7 in 43
V-0, VIII-1, IX-7, XIV-1 in 44
V-0, VIII-0, IX-4, XIV-2 in 45
Just in case
the Mustang I and IA should be seen as Tac Recon, they can fight and they can take photos
the FR will become the later war Tac Recon
the PR are unarmed photo birds
but want to get back to the Spits now that I got the time for it
the XIVC is that the 2 20mm, 4 303 ?
Yes.
then change to XIVE which for weapons will have 2 20mm and 2 50 cals, and a bigger internal fuel tank, bobbletop
Excellent.
IXE, 2 20mm, 2 50 cals, bigger internal fuel tank, bobbletop
would there be a single type of the 3 I have, that went to the E model ?
be confusing to try and make a HF.IXE, F.IXE and a LF.IXE
Most (but not all) late-war IXE's and all the XVIE's (the Packard Merlin IX variant) used the Merlin 66 or equivalent Packard Merlin 266 - so I say make them all LF.IXE's. I'm not a fan of the HF/F/LF split on the IX's myself, but fair play to you for trying it. The LF.VB had a radically different full-throttle height compared to the marginal difference between the HF-LF VIII and IXs, and I think it deserves different treatment.
Spit 21, Tempest II, I could make a small production run on these, players I believe would have to make the unit upgrade, I don't want to tell a planetype to upgrade to them
Fair enough, although I'd argue for the XII upgrading to the XIVC and the XIVE upgrading to the F.21. The timing of their production starts and a small daily production rate should keep them in minority use if your planned upgrade path behaviour is correct.
Spitfire PR.IV, 1-0-0
Spitfire PR.XI, 1-1-0 (ends in 4-44)
Spitfire PR.XIX 0-1-1 (starts in 4-44)
Spitfire FR.XIVE 0-1-1 (starts in 6-44)
Excellent again. Although given the AI's use and losses of PR aircraft, I think there's a case for continuing PR.XI a bit longer to provide sufficient overlap. But you'll know best from game testing on that.
I'd seriously argue for more, partly for historical reasons (XIVC's were in production into '45) and for replacing AI attrition. How about 0-2-0 F.XIVC and 0-0-3 or 4 for the F.XIVE? I really feel the E variants should be pushed further back into the post-Overlord period. They weren't common until September '44 for the IX/XVIE and early '45 for the XIVE, and I've reseached the original histories of both 125 Wing which was the main XIV unit in 2nd TAF and the TacR squadrons which transited from Mustang I/II's to Spit FR.XIV's in late '44. All mortal earthlings must bow down before me... (did I say that out loud? Sorry...)
Just in case
the Mustang I and IA should be seen as Tac Recon, they can fight and they can take photos
the FR will become the later war Tac Recon
the PR are unarmed photo birds
Excellent again. The Mustang I/II in Tac R units should upgrade to the FR.XIVE. Some actually used Typhoon's for a short time, and FR.IX's, but the numbers were too small to bother with in game terms, at least in my opinion.
Spit LF.VB flys out of England, Production of 2-0-0, upgrades to the Spit IXC
Spit LF.VC flys out of the MED, Production of 1-0-0, upgrades to the VIII
More good stuff. No disagreement here.
Spit LF.VIII flys out of the MED, Production of 3-1-0, upgrades to the XIVC
Actually, no units in the MTO converted to the XIVC. They seem to have stayed on the VIII or converted to the IX if necessary. There's no reason in game terms why they shouldn't upgrade to the XIV, but I'd vote for them going to the IX first.
Spit F.IX flys out of the MED, Productions of 2-1-0, upgrades to the IXE
Spit LF.IXC flys out of England, Production of 4-4-0, upgrades to the XIVC
Spit HF.IX, flys out of England, ADGB, Production of 1-1-0, Upgrades Mustang III
Spit LF.IXE, flys out of England, Production of 0-4-4
Too many IX variants for my taste, although it may work out in game terms. I like the HF.IX being upgradable to the Mustang III for the ADGB units if the existing available escort selection policy is being continued (e.g. FC. 9th AF and 2nd TAF unable to be selected for escorting 8th AF raids). However, I think it would be easier to standardise on the LF.IXC and HF.IXC for two variants.
Spit XIVC (havn't worked out if it should be a LF or F), flys with who ever gets it ?, Production of 0-1-0, upgrades to XIVE
The XIVC and XIVE both used the Griffon 65, with the same full-throttle height; so no need for any HF/LF distinction. They were generally restricted to one wing in 2nd TAF used for home defence (versus high-level Luftwaffe PR before Overlord) and then offensive operations. The war ended before they got to the MTO, although they did begin to appear in Burma in the summer of '45 and did re-equip some VIII squadrons before V-J Day.
Mustang I, flys out of England, Production of 2-0-0, upgrade touchy right now, as it is suppost to be a Tac Recon model
Mustang IA, flys out of England, Production of 1-0-0, again Tac Recon
Mustang III, flys with who ever gets it, Production of 3-3-0, upgrades to Mustang IV
Sounds fine to me, although production rates may be a little high; Allison Mustang production had essentially ended by August '43, with a small number of Mustang II's produced in early '43 being the last off the line.
Mustang IV, again, Production of 0-2-3
Tempest V, again, Production of 0-2-3
Sounds fine to me, provided they start around May '44 for the Tempest and August '44 for the Mustang IV.
( I got some tricks added, I can start and stop production when I want it, so, like the Stang, you will not be getting 5 a month of the two models (got a 1 month overlap) but will get 3 III this month, and then 2 IVs the next month, same with the E models, they take over production from the earlier models, so Production of the XIVC stops and the XIVE starts)
Spitfire production was a little messier than that, but in game terms it makes sense. It makes excellent sense for the P-47 and should allow you to get all the D variants you originally planned in, and at high production levels which eliminates my original criticism. Good one.
so that is V-3, VIII-3, IX-7 in 43
V-0, VIII-1, IX-7, XIV-1 in 44
V-0, VIII-0, IX-4, XIV-2 in 45
The '44 production looks a little low for my taste, with the number of IX or XIV actually dropping compared to '43. The same problem arises in '45. I'd argue for something like this -
VIII-1, LF.IXC-6, HF.IXC - 1, LF.IXE-2 (Sep), F.XIVC-2 in '44.
LF.IXC-2, LF.IXE-6, 4 F.XIVE, 1 F.21 (Feb) in '45.
Anyway, these are mostly petty issues: most of this sounds pretty much on the money for me. Excelleurrnt....
okay, lets see, I get
F.IX 2-2-0 ends in Sept 44 (end of month)
LF.IXC 4-6-0 ends in Sept 44
HF.IX 1-1-0 ends in Dec 44
LF.IXE 0-4-6 starts June 44
F.XIV 0-2-0 Ends Oct 44
F.XIVE 0-1-4 Starts July 44
Kittyhawk upgrades to Stang III
sorry to be a pain, but I still need better info on the F.21 and the Tempest II, we got stats that match how the game sets up ? most of the stuff I have found has too many gaps, I don't really want to just make guesses
F.IX 2-2-0 ends in Sept 44 (end of month)
LF.IXC 4-6-0 ends in Sept 44
HF.IX 1-1-0 ends in Dec 44
LF.IXE 0-4-6 starts June 44
F.XIV 0-2-0 Ends Oct 44
F.XIVE 0-1-4 Starts July 44
I hate to be the only feedback you're getting on this; but this looks like (if my maths is up to scratch, which is not a certainty) 11 F.IX/XIV variants per day up to May '44, rising to 15 in June and then 16 in July and August, before reducing to 10 in September, then 8 in October and then 6 in November and December. To me this seems like too high a peak and too low a slump in production at the end of the year (even factoring in the 1 Mk VIII per day in '44). Overall production was something like 10-12 per day throughout the period, and I think something similar is needed in game terms.
I'd suggest holding the LF.IXE's back to September, which would reduce the daily rate to 11 or 12 in June-August, and maybe keeping the F.IX's going until December at 2 per day which should keep the daily rate at about 8 F.IX/XIVs in November and December.
sorry to be a pain,
Heh, that's my line....
but I still need better info on the F.21 and the Tempest II, we got stats that match how the game sets up ? most of the stuff I have found has too many gaps, I don't really want to just make guesses
I'll dig out the F.21 stats from Price later on, I think some relevant Tempest II stats have been posted already, and I only have my notes of the AFDU comparison between it and the Tempest V and P-47. The F.21 can be ignored without too much hassle, but then it's part of the fun of the game to have the minor types (e.g. P-47M) included. And it did actually see action, which is more than can be said for the Tempest II....
