a bit of salt to all enthusiastic about NIK mod

[Sneer]

i find it is better when A2A combat is concerned
i know it was aimed for leaking cap
i can't say which version of air combat is better /worse - stock or Nik mod probably Nik mod is better but it needs tweaking in pure fighter vs bomber engagements

but here are 2 examples from last few turns



Day Air attack on TF at 23,52 - 21 fighters couldn't stop 3 old unescorted nells [X(]

Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 3

Allied aircraft
Sea Hurricane x 4
Wirraway x 3
Hurricane IIb x 5
Spitfire Vb x 3
Kittyhawk I x 4
P-40B Tomahawk x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell: 1 damaged


Allied Ships
AK Barossa, Torpedo hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x G3M Nell launching torpedoes at 200 feet


Day Air attack on TF at 103,90 - 30 elite fighters couldn't stop 17 unescorted dauntlesses - i understand that DB should get through but not all but one !!![:@]

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 31

Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless: 1 destroyed, 15 damaged

Japanese Ships
CVE Hosho, on fire, heavy damage
CVE Taiyo, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Settsu

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet

[wild_Willie2]

The altitude setting of your CAP becomes a LOT more important in NIK mod, setting ALL your fighters at 15K and having an attack come in at 23000K has got a BAD effect on your fighter intercept. So, spread out CAP altitudes. This is what most likely happend in the SBD attack...


Also, intercepting a small formation of bombers (3) was ALWAYS difficult in the game, but with NIK mod results become more visible. I bet that an 27 plane attack wave would be intercepted with much more cassualties to the attacker...

[Sneer]

yes probably cap would be able to shot down up to 2-3 bombers anddamage all of them -still there is no way to defend anything with fighters as bombers never break

[Black Mamba 1942]

In the "manual" it states that fighters on CAP will climb to the intercept altitude.
So how can your altitude settings make an impact on interceptions.
Is the manual wrong?[&:]

[wild_Willie2]

yes probably cap would be able to shot down up to 2-3 bombers anddamage all of them -still there is no way to defend anything with fighters as bombers never break

You mean that they never "break of an attack" under NIK mod??.

I have seen severall instances of this happening in NIk mod. I must agree that NIK mod is not perfect, but CAP is become much more realsitic under this mod. You simply can't assume anymore that CAP will keep your carriers/ships 100% safe.

As it stands, I think it is currently the most accurate mod out there....

Have to go to work now....

work sucks....

[wild_Willie2]

In the "manual" it states that fighters on CAP will climb to the intercept altitude.
So how can your altitude settings make an impact on interceptions.
Is the manual wrong?

Climbing takes time, making CAP intercept time LESS.......

Yes CAP altitude makes a BIG difference, try setting your CAP 5000 feet over the attack altitude in a H2H, and see those bombers burn....

[Sneer]

i don't expect to have my carriers safe but numbers of leakers is too high
very often i saw 30-50 fighters at same altitude as attackers not able to stop 30 bombers with only 5-6 escort - i write about defending airfield now
bombers do not fear fighters any more in this mod
they always deliver bombload to place and return

[Brady]

It was posted a while back that thier iss a code rutine that alows for the a "few" bombers to almost always get through to the target.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Sneer

i don't expect to have my carriers safe but numbers of leakers is too high
very often i saw 30-50 fighters at same altitude as attackers not able to stop 30 bombers with only 5-6 escort - i write about defending airfield now
bombers do not fear fighters any more in this mod
they always deliver bombload to place and return

So you are saying that 30-50 fighters are supposed to stop 30 bombers and a few escorts? Based on what criteria? Are they always in the air? Are they always smack in the path of the incoming raid? Are they always in a group of 30 CAP fighters capable of transporting in front of every raid? Oh yeah, the A2A model we have all seen in action for 3-4 years. The entire concept of hex based CAP was a mistake. There should be alot more variables affecting CAP than we have now.

[tsimmonds]

I agree with Ron on this issue 100%. Code should be changed. But in the meantime, work-around by always limiting all CAP to 40% (in non-Nik mods).

[wild_Willie2]

I agree with Ron on this issue 100%. Code should be changed. But in the meantime, work-around by always limiting all CAP to 40% (in non-Nik mods).

And even a max of 70% CAP in NIK mod [;)][:D]

[ChezDaJez]

Day Air attack on TF at 23,52 - 21 fighters couldn't stop 3 old unescorted nells

There are historical precedents for this.

Enterprise's CAP didn't stop 5 Nells from conducting a low level bombing run (3500 feet) on her during the Marshall Island raids in Feb 42. One bomb fell close enough to slightly damage the ship. Her CAP was caught out of position and couldn't engage until just before (but mostly after) bomb release.

There should always be a chance a few planes will get through regardless of how many aircraft are on CAP or how good they are.

Chez

[Sneer]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Sneer

i don't expect to have my carriers safe but numbers of leakers is too high
very often i saw 30-50 fighters at same altitude as attackers not able to stop 30 bombers with only 5-6 escort - i write about defending airfield now
bombers do not fear fighters any more in this mod
they always deliver bombload to place and return

So you are saying that 30-50 fighters are supposed to stop 30 bombers and a few escorts? Based on what criteria? Are they always in the air? Are they always smack in the path of the incoming raid? Are they always in a group of 30 CAP fighters capable of transporting in front of every raid? Oh yeah, the A2A model we have all seen in action for 3-4 years. The entire concept of hex based CAP was a mistake. There should be alot more variables affecting CAP than we have now.

if my enemy attacks me regularly on same altitude with similar forces answer is that there is good chance i can intercept them
also we talk about airfield with 80+ fighters
they do not climb to 20k but only to 10k
if there would be surprise factor coded in that would be ok to me
remember that if you set fighters are set on escort then they will never scramble even if there was no escort mission within last weak and none is planned- it is serious disadvantage to defender - always

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Sneer

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Sneer

i don't expect to have my carriers safe but numbers of leakers is too high
very often i saw 30-50 fighters at same altitude as attackers not able to stop 30 bombers with only 5-6 escort - i write about defending airfield now
bombers do not fear fighters any more in this mod
they always deliver bombload to place and return

So you are saying that 30-50 fighters are supposed to stop 30 bombers and a few escorts? Based on what criteria? Are they always in the air? Are they always smack in the path of the incoming raid? Are they always in a group of 30 CAP fighters capable of transporting in front of every raid? Oh yeah, the A2A model we have all seen in action for 3-4 years. The entire concept of hex based CAP was a mistake. There should be alot more variables affecting CAP than we have now.

if my enemy attacks me regularly on same altitude with similar forces answer is that there is good chance i can intercept them
also we talk about airfield with 80+ fighters
they do not climb to 20k but only to 10k
if there would be surprise factor coded in that would be ok to me
remember that if you set fighters are set on escort then they will never scramble even if there was no escort mission within last weak and none is planned- it is serious disadvantage to defender - always

so on what mission should I set them to get them scramble? Never heard of that, I never thought that more fighters get in the air than the percentage of set CAP.

[denisonh]

Make sure that you have a base force with radar, that is important.

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Sneer

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker



So you are saying that 30-50 fighters are supposed to stop 30 bombers and a few escorts? Based on what criteria? Are they always in the air? Are they always smack in the path of the incoming raid? Are they always in a group of 30 CAP fighters capable of transporting in front of every raid? Oh yeah, the A2A model we have all seen in action for 3-4 years. The entire concept of hex based CAP was a mistake. There should be alot more variables affecting CAP than we have now.

if my enemy attacks me regularly on same altitude with similar forces answer is that there is good chance i can intercept them
also we talk about airfield with 80+ fighters
they do not climb to 20k but only to 10k
if there would be surprise factor coded in that would be ok to me
remember that if you set fighters are set on escort then they will never scramble even if there was no escort mission within last weak and none is planned- it is serious disadvantage to defender - always

so on what mission should I set them to get them scramble? Never heard of that, I never thought that more fighters get in the air than the percentage of set CAP.

[tsimmonds]

All fighters present in the hex at the time of an attack are eligible to attempt to scramble. This is basically all fighters not conducting LRCAP or offensive missions (including those escorting strikes) during that phase .

[Herrbear]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

All fighters present in the hex at the time of an attack are eligible to attempt to scramble. This is basically all fighters not conducting LRCAP or offensive missions (including those escorting strikes) during that phase .

Including those set for Training?

[Nikademus]

Example 1 -

Looks like your CAP didn't get much of a detection bonus coupled with the low # of planes on the attack (increasing the sneak through factor)

Example 2 -

Zeros did tend to have a hard time dealing with the durable SBD's.....if you read John Lunstrom's accounts in his 1st team books, you'll see that they tended to bag very few of them even when they were seperated from their escorts (which was most of the time) Their best success ironically came during Coral Sea when in the role of anti-torpedo plane fighters, 5 SBD's were bagged by the Zero escort during the attacks on Lex and York.

As the war progressed, SBD's became even tougher opponents as the USN aviators learned to stick close together for mutual defense. The Zero essentially had the same issue with the SBD that it did with the F4F (and other armored Allied planes) 7.7's were generally ineffective against their self sealing tanks and armor....and while the cannons could do the job it was harder to hit with them and ammo was limited. A specific Nikmod goal was to better differentiate the tough SBD and the even tougher TBF vs. it's unarmored opponents, the Val and Kate. They are not invulnerable...but they are alot tougher. Few SBD's were shot down during the Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz battles. Lack of radar over the TF's factors too....the fighters wont get as many runs against the bombers.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

yes probably cap would be able to shot down up to 2-3 bombers anddamage all of them -still there is no way to defend anything with fighters as bombers never break

You mean that they never "break of an attack" under NIK mod??.

I have seen severall instances of this happening in NIk mod. I must agree that NIK mod is not perfect, but CAP is become much more realsitic under this mod. You simply can't assume anymore that CAP will keep your carriers/ships 100% safe.

As it stands, I think it is currently the most accurate mod out there....

Have to go to work now....

work sucks....

USN and IJN carrier airgroups have very high morale and are tough to drive off through morale failure. Stock or Nikmod, i've seen few instances where this happens which, when you think about it is part of why DB and TB losses in stock are so high...Neither IJN nor USN carrier airgoups break off. Even LBA requires multiple pummelings (multiple air attacks) before morale falls sufficiently for breaking off msgs to start appearing.

(edit: i'm not implying that the above is bad. Units with high morale should be very resistant to breaking off.....the IJN and USN carrier groups were both very resilient and demonstrated it.....examples would be the IJN willingness to brave ever increasing flak and fighter interference through the four major carrier battles and in the US case, the "slaughter" of the TBD squadrons at Midway saw the survivors sticking to their runs despite the opposition. Units that have seen heavy combat and suffered a major morale hit that *then* fly again are what are most subject to being driven off my CAP. This is how it should be IMO) (the game thus encourages standing down of the unit to bring morale back up....same thing happens in BTR)

[Bombur]

The second example was actually similar to what happened in Santa Cruz Battle.

Here we had

4 F4F
14 SBD

vs.

26 Zeroes on CAP (14 attacked the planes)

Losses:

1 Zero, 2 F4F, 1 SBD + 2 SBD driven off (the Zero was shot down by the SBD´s)

11 SBD attacked

Shokaku, 4 bomb hits

However, it should be noticed that 5 SBD´s were written off after landing. The SBD is not invincible, but they can bring pilots back. It´s possible that you lost 1 or 2 additional SBD´s as consequence of battle damage. Nik mod is, again, more realistic. The same thing happens with Japanese bombers. If they are heavily escorted, then the allied player will have a trouble, even if the IJN will lose more planes.