map in indochina

[Sneer]

i recently bought book about French Indochina vs Siam war
in 40-41 before japan 5th div moved to Tonkin /hanoi
there was a supply dump of chinase equipment bought from US
there was at least 75k supplies for chang kai shek's troops stored
but what is important and what is not seen in both stock and mod maps - there was railway between hanoi and Yunan used to transport bought supply
one of the reason of japanese actions was to break this lane /
second to be allowed offensive movements against yunan
in game terms there should be a road not trail there
i'll try to scan maps available to me and post reilway/road net in indochina

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Sneer

i recently bought book about French Indochina vs Siam war
in 40-41 before japan 5th div moved to Tonkin /hanoi
there was a supply dump of chinase equipment bought from US
there was at least 75k supplies for chang kai shek's troops stored
but what is important and what is not seen in both stock and mod maps - there was railway between hanoi and Yunan used to transport bought supply
one of the reason of japanese actions was to break this lane /
second to be allowed offensive movements against yunan
in game terms there should be a road not trail there
i'll try to scan maps available to me and post reilway/road net in indochina

In short: The Chinese had removed the railway tracks by then (it was narrow gauge anyway) and the tracks were not replaced until long after the war.

There was a thred about this issue here (in the Scen section) some weeks ago.

[treespider]

-

[treespider]

- Alternating hashes indicate narrow gauge. Broken or dashed lines in dicate destroyed/removed rail

[treespider]

-

[el cid again]

In short: The Chinese had removed the railway tracks by then (it was narrow gauge anyway) and the tracks were not replaced until long after the war.

There was a thred about this issue here (in the Scen section) some weeks ago.

Yep - and Kereguelen seems to have missed the point. There was indeed a Hanoi-Kunming Railway line - and it is now on the RHS map - as a trail where the tracks were torn up - and as a road where they still existed. This route was used by the French Foreign Legion regiment (battalion) at Hanoi to escape on the occasion the rest of French forces were murdered in Indochina: clearly it was a viable route. Indeed, that is WHY the tracks were torn up: to slow down an offensive along the route. I look forward to the day when we can upgrade trails to roads: the many engineers of the IJA were up to building a rail line where one already existed.

As for narrow gage - ALL RAIL LINES in SE Asia are narrow gage. In fact, metric gage. IF you are going to complain that they should not be shown as rail lines - then complain about ALL of them. In our system it is not the gage of the line that counts - it is the weight of rail and capacity of the line. Indeed - ALL RR lines in Japan itself are narrow gage! This line was main line - and could be again simply by laying rail - and probably working on some bridges (rail lines need maintenance or things don't hold up well). The one "main line" in the area that probably should be downgraded is the one in Burma - it is the lightest main line on the planet if you believe data in Janes All the World's Railroads.

[treespider]

Yep - and Kereguelen seems to have missed the point.

What point did he miss?

[el cid again]

Yep - and Kereguelen seems to have missed the point.

What point did he miss?

That the line of communications SHOULD BE on the map - that leaving it out is not correct historically. Instead of saying "they tore up the rails - forget about the line" he should say "it is true - a viable line through the mountains existed - and should be shown as road or trail, depending on the hex."

[treespider]

- forget about the line

He didn't say that.

[el cid again]

he didn't say that


He said rather more:

In short: The Chinese had removed the railway tracks by then (it was narrow gauge anyway) and the tracks were not replaced until long after the war.

[bradfordkay]

It appears that Cid and Keregulen are actually in agreement. K's response was to Sneer's comment that the rail line should be represented as a road, not a trail. K stated that since the tracks were torn up, depicting it as a trail is reasonable.

Cid is also stating that it should be depicted as a trail where the tracks were removed, and as a road where the tracks still existed... sometimes we talk past each other without noticing...

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

In short: The Chinese had removed the railway tracks by then (it was narrow gauge anyway) and the tracks were not replaced until long after the war.

There was a thred about this issue here (in the Scen section) some weeks ago.

Yep - and Kereguelen seems to have missed the point. There was indeed a Hanoi-Kunming Railway line - and it is now on the RHS map - as a trail where the tracks were torn up - and as a road where they still existed. This route was used by the French Foreign Legion regiment (battalion) at Hanoi to escape on the occasion the rest of French forces were murdered in Indochina: clearly it was a viable route. Indeed, that is WHY the tracks were torn up: to slow down an offensive along the route. I look forward to the day when we can upgrade trails to roads: the many engineers of the IJA were up to building a rail line where one already existed.

As for narrow gage - ALL RAIL LINES in SE Asia are narrow gage. In fact, metric gage. IF you are going to complain that they should not be shown as rail lines - then complain about ALL of them. In our system it is not the gage of the line that counts - it is the weight of rail and capacity of the line. Indeed - ALL RR lines in Japan itself are narrow gage! This line was main line - and could be again simply by laying rail - and probably working on some bridges (rail lines need maintenance or things don't hold up well). The one "main line" in the area that probably should be downgraded is the one in Burma - it is the lightest main line on the planet if you believe data in Janes All the World's Railroads.

In America where railroads are "large", there is a mistaken impression that "narrow guage" is like a toy railroad.
Most of the world has (or has had) narrow guage, including the U.S.
In the 1800's, it was cheaper in some areas to lay narrow guage track then full guage, just because of the terrain.
In fact, some of the largest American diesels of the 1950's were made in narrow guage versions just for the overseas markets, and during WWII, many of the military railroads of ALL nations were narrow guage, (outside of the U.S., but including the American Army railroads!).
In fact, as recent as the 1950's, there were still several narrow guage railroads operating daily service inside the U.S., such as East Broad Top, and sections of the Rio Grande railroad, and subsidiaries of the PRR, ATSF, B&O, White Pass and Yukon, etc..
Even with their tracks torn up, the roadbeds are still a "heavy weight capable roadway, usually rockbed or gravel..
I'm not the only "train nut" on these forums.....[:D]

[Andrew Brown]

I agrew with Sid that it is a good idea to represent the missing section of this line as "trail". Currently on my map I have nothing at all in the gap. I will add a trail linking the ends of the railway line.

Regarding gauge. For my map I don't represent a railway as "low capacity" simply because of the gauge. There are indeed narrow gauge railway lines that have a high capacity. I have very little in the way of good reference material in this area, so I continue to rely on the suggestions of others for improving this aspect of my WitP map.

Andrew

[m10bob]

I agree..To me, a "road" would be at least 2 lanes wide, hard surface.. In a jungle or very remote region, lack of use will cause even "roads" to become overgrown in one good monsoon season.

[treespider]

And what would a few gratuitously placed pounds of dynamite do to this narrow train bed situated on the side of a mountain?

I would venture there were a number of reasons the Japanese did not utilize this route...dynamite being one of them. I'll do some more research.

[treespider]

From the net...

The Kunming-Hekou line (468km) is the railway between Kunming and Vietnam border nearby Hekou. In 1903 the Qing dynasty and France made the railway construction treaty. Already there was the railway of a meter gauge between Hanoi and Lao Cai, off Hekou, so the train has been able to drive from Hanoi to Kunming after completion. The line — designed by the French so that they could tap Yunnan's mineral resources for their colonies in Indo-china — has been cut during World War II, restored in 1957, cut again in 1979, and reopened in 1996. Landslide put the Kunming/Hanoi out of service in 2003 and still out so far.

[el cid again]

It appears that Cid and Keregulen are actually in agreement. K's response was to Sneer's comment that the rail line should be represented as a road, not a trail. K stated that since the tracks were torn up, depicting it as a trail is reasonable.

Cid is also stating that it should be depicted as a trail where the tracks were removed, and as a road where the tracks still existed... sometimes we talk past each other without noticing...

I guess we need to explain "Andrew Brown map code" to make this clear:
a secondary rail line is represented as a road - so Sneer has it right - the "road" represents a secondary rail line. When K says "the tracks were torn up" he means "don't represent it as a road." And to the extent he means just that, K is also right. But it appears in both threads he does not want to draw the trail - he likes the map as it is (was). See the other thread for amplified comments making this clear. I added the line as a road in Indochina but as a trail near the border - not far from Kunming - where it is road again - Kunming feeds other hexes and is a rail center.

[el cid again]

Regarding gauge. For my map I don't represent a railway as "low capacity" simply because of the gauge. There are indeed narrow gauge railway lines that have a high capacity. I have very little in the way of good reference material in this area, so I continue to rely on the suggestions of others for improving this aspect of my WitP map.

Andrew has been very receptive to information about rail lines - and only time has limited how fast he has implemented such information. He has asked for data on specific lines (e.g. in Indonesia). And if anyone needs it, I have a couple editions of Jane's World Railways and a couple of Railway Encyclopedias which, between them, pretty much get the job done.

[el cid again]

I agree..To me, a "road" would be at least 2 lanes wide, hard surface.. In a jungle or very remote region, lack of use will cause even "roads" to become overgrown in one good monsoon season.

Actually, in much of the world's remote regions, first class roads, even paved ones, are often only one lane. A railroad line is often exactly one lane wide. Standard gage is 4 ft 8.5 in - the width of a standard vehicle axil - because it was the width of axils since Roman times - and before - used on chariots and wagons. Roads used to have ruts exactly that width!

Roads in all areas require maintenance - but not very much. The biggest issues are watercourses - erosion - and rocks falling off cliffs. Jungle will overgrow a road in due course - but it is nothing like "return to jungle" in fact. Just route data is valuable - and foundation is invaluable. Mere vegitation is barely an issue - particularly if you have a bulldozer or a tank or heavy engineer truck leading the way. Northern Tonkin (Vietnam to you non-Colonial speakers) is not jungle at all - vegitation is not an issue. Nor is frost heaving (as it is on the ALCAN or Alaska RR). Tearing out the rails does little - these can be relaid at 9 miles per day on existing bed by HAND - and 20 times that fast with mechanical assistence.

[el cid again]

And what would a few gratuitously placed pounds of dynamite do to this narrow train bed situated on the side of a mountain?

I would venture there were a number of reasons the Japanese did not utilize this route...dynamite being one of them. I'll do some more research.

A few pounds? Nada. The best thing to do if you have MANY pounds of TNT blocks would be to find the largest watercrossing in the district and damage a structural support of the bridge - assuming there is one (usually there is). We studied trying to bring down rockslides using B-52s in the late 1960s, and concluded it was impractical (as well as impolitic - too close to PRC).

What DID matter to Japan was steel rail. They did NOT make the rail for the Burma-Siam railroad! They tore up and relaid the Malaya East RR!
[The war was begun over an embargo of oil - AND iron ore]. Steel was the most critical strategic resource, after oil, for both USA and Japan. You can use steel to build factories, warships, trucks, tanks, railroad tracks, rolling stock, merchant ships - the list is endless - but any given bit of steel can only be used once. It is hard to change how fast you make steel too - so it becomes critical where you use it.