map in indochina

[el cid again]

Dang..I am amazed what people on this forum can come up with.

If one ripped up rail, but left the bridges..then it would be quite a good trail..otherwise...

I heard the story at the FFL museum. But it was orally. There is just a little plaque - as there is for every action. Most of them are quite cryptic: "The Mahdi of whatchumacallit rose with 6000 irregulars. A platoon was dispatched. The problem was handled."

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Dang..I am amazed what people on this forum can come up with.

If one ripped up rail, but left the bridges..then it would be quite a good trail..otherwise...

I heard the story at the FFL museum. But it was orally. There is just a little plaque - as there is for every action. Most of them are quite cryptic: "The Mahdi of whatchumacallit rose with 6000 irregulars. A platoon was dispatched. The problem was handled."

So what references state that the 5 REI utilized the Kunming-Hanoi Railroad in its retreat to China? The best I have been able to locate are references that the 5 REI retreated north into China and that it was an epic feat. However no mention that they used the railline to do so. Would it have been as epic as claimed if the railline was intact and passable? In addition the one reference which I posted here earlier was a translation from German which seemed to indicate the retreat so disrupted the unit that is unable to reform until 1946 an indication that it probably passed over some very inhospitable terrain.

[el cid again]

In addition the one reference which I posted here earlier was a translation from German which seemed to indicate the retreat so disrupted the unit that is unable to reform until 1946 an indication that it probably passed over some very inhospitable terrain.

The unit was disbanded for political reasons - and reformed under a different name to fight in Algeria - under its former commander. It fought a successful campaign but ultimately it was to no avail. The unit was chosen because it was considered willing to do whatever it took to achieve the mission - and the mission in that case was to go into the Casbah and obtain information on the location of a resistence unit/leader. I do not entirely understand the politics of the period in France - and I am not particularly sympathetic with colonial regimes in general. This material is, however, treated at some length, and with some accuracy, in an Anthony Quinn movie - which begins with the retreat down the rail line and ends with the action in Algeria.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

In addition the one reference which I posted here earlier was a translation from German which seemed to indicate the retreat so disrupted the unit that is unable to reform until 1946 an indication that it probably passed over some very inhospitable terrain.

The unit was disbanded for political reasons - and reformed under a different name to fight in Algeria - under its former commander. It fought a successful campaign but ultimately it was to no avail. The unit was chosen because it was considered willing to do whatever it took to achieve the mission - and the mission in that case was to go into the Casbah and obtain information on the location of a resistence unit/leader. I do not entirely understand the politics of the period in France - and I am not particularly sympathetic with colonial regimes in general. This material is, however, treated at some length, and with some accuracy, in an Anthony Quinn movie - which begins with the retreat down the rail line and ends with the action in Algeria.

I saw the CV Nimitz involved in the battle at Pearl Harbor in a movie. In fact they destroyed two zeros...should we include them as well? I also saw Alec Guinnes blow up the bridge over the River Kwai the day it was opened...IRL the two bridges over the Kwai weren't detsroyed for two years. Movies are great entertainment.

The citatition I found indicated that the unit reformed in China in February 1946 after the retreat.

I think you have a tendency to extrapolate information which isn't there...

IE.
- There was a railline from Hanoi to Kunming. The 5 REI retreated into China from IndoChina. El Cids version - If I were to retreat from Vietnam into China I would use the railine.


Whereas I view it as:
- There used to be a railline from Hanoi-Kunming. Just prior to the game start, a section of it was completely destroyed by the Chinese. The 5 REI retreated from Vietnam into China. No indication anywhere (other than your suggestion from a movie) that it used the railine. The retreat so disrupted the unit that it was unable to reform until February of 1946. Telling me it wasn't a nice orderly stroll down a well graded path through treacherous terrain. (The numerous travel logs I have found all talk about daily landslides in the region)

[el cid again]

I saw the CV Nimitz involved in the battle at Pearl Harbor in a movie. In fact they destroyed two zeros...should we include them as well?

I suspect that was based on a real incident - but no we should not include it. During the filming of Tora Tora Tora a US warship - not in port the day before and unaware of the movie filming - really went to General Quarters - and nearly did shoot down simulated Kates. I am somewhat embarassed to say who it was set off the alarm - but it did happen. Fortunately, many ships saw the weapons training and men running - and all sorts of messages - including shouts from another ship alongside - prevented firing!

It is not quite reasonable to compare a science fiction movie with a historical one, however.

[treespider]

It is not quite reasonable to compare a science fiction movie with a historical one, however.

Hence why I also included the reference to "The Bridge over the River Kwai"

[treespider]

But back on point...

Can you provide us with a bona fide historical reference stating that the 5 REI retreated down the path of the Kunming Hanoi railroad?

Edit: Perhaps a better way to phrase it would be ...that the 5 REI utilized the Kunming Hanoi railbed to conduct its retreat?

[el cid again]

The citatition I found indicated that the unit reformed in China in February 1946 after the retreat.

I think you have a tendency to extrapolate information which isn't there...

IE.
- There was a railline from Hanoi to Kunming. The 5 REI retreated into China from IndoChina. El Cids version - If I were to retreat from Vietnam into China I would use the railine.

No Treespider - you are wrong. I am not extrapolating. I am repeating what I was told - and what I have otherwise read. I am engaged in a bit of work just now and not inclined to go digging up material on a recreational subject - I need to do data entry. You don't choose to believe me - fine. But this story is told in various forms - and never would I have assumed how they got to Kunming - the rail line is in EVERY variation I have heard. I find it a bit amazing the Japanese didn't send planes down the rail line - but apparently they didn't. I would have considered that route a bit too obvious. If the enemy has too many troops to fight, I believe in evasion. But the FFL could out march any army on the planet - still can - and I believe no marching troops could catch them - not even IJA who were famous for surprising Allied units by their rate of march (although march is the wrong word - they didn't march exactly - but it was movement on foot). But FFL requires troops to move 50 miles a day AND build a defensive position EVERY DAY - regardless of terrain - a pace no other army can sustain and few elite units can match. And that is in the actual doctrine - so you probably can look it up if you don't wish to believe me.

[el cid again]

Hence why I also included the reference to "The Bridge over the River Kwai"

A strange movie which is NOT historical. It OFFENDED Japanese viewers - not for saying IJA was brutal - but for implying Japanese railroad units didn't know how to build a bridge! And the bridge was destroyed by bombers - not sappers. Not sure why they messed with history?

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The citatition I found indicated that the unit reformed in China in February 1946 after the retreat.

I think you have a tendency to extrapolate information which isn't there...

IE.
- There was a railline from Hanoi to Kunming. The 5 REI retreated into China from IndoChina. El Cids version - If I were to retreat from Vietnam into China I would use the railine.

No Treespider - you are wrong. I am not extrapolating. I am repeating what I was told - and what I have otherwise read. I am engaged in a bit of work just now and not inclined to go digging up material on a recreational subject - I need to do data entry. You don't choose to believe me - fine. But this story is told in various forms - and never would I have assumed how they got to Kunming - the rail line is in EVERY variation I have heard. I find it a bit amazing the Japanese didn't send planes down the rail line - but apparently they didn't. I would have considered that route a bit too obvious. If the enemy has too many troops to fight, I believe in evasion. But the FFL could out march any army on the planet - still can - and I believe no marching troops could catch them - not even IJA who were famous for surprising Allied units by their rate of march (although march is the wrong word - they didn't march exactly - but it was movement on foot). But FFL requires troops to move 50 miles a day AND build a defensive position EVERY DAY - regardless of terrain - a pace no other army can sustain and few elite units can match. And that is in the actual doctrine - so you probably can look it up if you don't wish to believe me.

I can believe that the FFL can march 50 miles every day and set up a defensive perimeter....that is not the point.

The point is that the FFL marched into Northern China. The march into Northern China disrupted the unit to the degree that it did not reform until Feb of 1946. That nowhere does it state that the 5 REI utilized the railbed to conduct its retreat.

What is tiresome though... is your repeated statements of apparent facts and when those statements are challenged, your typical response is that you are too busy to cite your sources.

[el cid again]

Can you provide us with a bona fide historical reference stating that the 5 REI retreated down the path of the Kunming Hanoi railroad?

Probably. Not going to do that. I take a break from working to engage in conversation - and I am going to try to get my goals accomplished. If you think I made it up - fine. But know I would not do that. Not in my nature. I also don't think you have a clue how much time it would take to dig through just what I have here - never mind other places. Or how many versions of the story are likely to turn up in English, Japanese, French, German, Vietnamese and Chinese materials. Nor are you impressed I have been to the (moved) FFL museum - or that I spent time listening to the official recitation of the events - which tells me you are not likely to be impressed with anything less than official. You are not going to believe me anyway - because it is inconvenient for your argument. And that is the crux of the problem - the rail line was used but you don't want to accept it. Well - fine - don't. No rail line built is a bad way to march - ever - except possibly at major watercourses or blown tunnels. It is an engineering technical fact - and if no one used it the fact will not change.

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

Here is another map of the area, from the 1945 national Geographic map. It shows, besides the removed railway, a separate road route (in red), so I think that using a trail (I suspect that the road route would not be of high quality in this part of the world) is not unreasonable.

ORIGINAL: treespider

I would leave the hex devoid of transportation in light of this quote and the above photos...

From

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/timeline/411101amie.html

There is a trail about 30 miles west of and roughly parallel to the railroad, but there is no road south of Mengtze. Only two other corridors exist, according to the Chinese Minister of War: one, an old road parallel to and about 30 miles west of the railway; the other about 120 miles east of the railway. The same source says that lateral travel between these routes is impossible because of the ruggedness of the terrain, and that the Chinese have rendered impassable all three routes of approach. Possible use of the valleys of the larger river appears remote.

Is this the road referred to, one wonders?

[treespider]

Is this the road referred to, one wonders?

Refer to the map image in post #4 of this thread. There is a secondary road that terminates at Phong Tho on the Chinese-IndoChina border. Footpaths extend into China from Phong Tho. I would venture this is the road which the National geographic map is referencing.

The other possible road is east of the railbed and terminates at Ha Giang.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The citatition I found indicated that the unit reformed in China in February 1946 after the retreat.

I think you have a tendency to extrapolate information which isn't there...

IE.
- There was a railline from Hanoi to Kunming. The 5 REI retreated into China from IndoChina. El Cids version - If I were to retreat from Vietnam into China I would use the railine.

No Treespider - you are wrong. I am not extrapolating. I am repeating what I was told - and what I have otherwise read. I am engaged in a bit of work just now and not inclined to go digging up material on a recreational subject - I need to do data entry. You don't choose to believe me - fine. But this story is told in various forms - and never would I have assumed how they got to Kunming - the rail line is in EVERY variation I have heard. I find it a bit amazing the Japanese didn't send planes down the rail line - but apparently they didn't. I would have considered that route a bit too obvious. If the enemy has too many troops to fight, I believe in evasion. But the FFL could out march any army on the planet - still can - and I believe no marching troops could catch them - not even IJA who were famous for surprising Allied units by their rate of march (although march is the wrong word - they didn't march exactly - but it was movement on foot). But FFL requires troops to move 50 miles a day AND build a defensive position EVERY DAY - regardless of terrain - a pace no other army can sustain and few elite units can match. And that is in the actual doctrine - so you probably can look it up if you don't wish to believe me.

Hi,

the legion did not take the railroad (or any route close to the destroyed railroad) while in Indochina. They marched through Meo-Country (borderland with Laos) and passed Dien Bien Phu (quite fascinating considering the later history of the legion) and Muong Khoua (deep in Laos), both far away from the rail line.

There is a text "La retraite de Chine" available on the net (in French): http://war.megabaze.com/page_html/085-T ... 0IndoChina

It's very detailed and lists the way stations of the retreat to Yunnan (as well as units involved, Japanese actions, support flown by 14th AF etc.). Very interesting read, however too detailed to give those of you who don't speak/read French a comprehensive summary (maybe Altavista or some other web translation machine may work).

K

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The citatition I found indicated that the unit reformed in China in February 1946 after the retreat.

I think you have a tendency to extrapolate information which isn't there...

IE.
- There was a railline from Hanoi to Kunming. The 5 REI retreated into China from IndoChina. El Cids version - If I were to retreat from Vietnam into China I would use the railine.

No Treespider - you are wrong. I am not extrapolating. I am repeating what I was told - and what I have otherwise read. I am engaged in a bit of work just now and not inclined to go digging up material on a recreational subject - I need to do data entry. You don't choose to believe me - fine. But this story is told in various forms - and never would I have assumed how they got to Kunming - the rail line is in EVERY variation I have heard. I find it a bit amazing the Japanese didn't send planes down the rail line - but apparently they didn't. I would have considered that route a bit too obvious. If the enemy has too many troops to fight, I believe in evasion. But the FFL could out march any army on the planet - still can - and I believe no marching troops could catch them - not even IJA who were famous for surprising Allied units by their rate of march (although march is the wrong word - they didn't march exactly - but it was movement on foot). But FFL requires troops to move 50 miles a day AND build a defensive position EVERY DAY - regardless of terrain - a pace no other army can sustain and few elite units can match. And that is in the actual doctrine - so you probably can look it up if you don't wish to believe me.

Hi,

the legion did not take the railroad (or any route close to the destroyed railroad) while in Indochina. They marched through Meo-Country (borderland with Laos) and passed Dien Bien Phu (quite fascinating considering the later history of the legion) and Muong Khoua (deep in Laos), both far away from the rail line.

There is a text "La retraite de Chine" available on the net (in French): http://war.megabaze.com/page_html/085-T ... 0IndoChina

It's very detailed and lists the way stations of the retreat to Yunnan (as well as units involved, Japanese actions, support flown by 14th AF etc.). Very interesting read, however too detailed to give those of you who don't speak/read French a comprehensive summary (maybe Altavista or some other web translation machine may work).

K

Thank you.

[timtom]

Sid, the movement of 5 REI is central to your case - the piece of evidence that marks the route as "clearly viable" according to your post #6 on this thread.

You're yet to present evidence better than hearsay and fiction, I'm afraid. Forest, on the other hand, has presented credible evidence to the difficulty of the terrain, that the infrastructure in the area had been extensively damaged/destroyed, and, not least, that the US CoS discounted meaningful military operation utilising said infrastructure.

Personally I don't see any reason to question your story about the escape of the 5 FEI. Forest's reference to the German-language FFL site would confirm this.

However, I have to question the story of the 5 REI does in fact make a good case for the route being "clearly viable".

You say we're dealing with a battalion-sized unit (500-1,000 men). The circumstances of their escape suggests that they a) werer travelling light b) didn't have to bother about a maintaining a LoC. In short, not a military operation in the normal sense. Forest's reference describes the venture as "adventurous" (abenteuerlichen) and informs us that only a minority made it to China (wenigen Überlebenden). However the wording of the text suggests that the they did fight the Japanese along the way (durchzuschlagen = literally "to break through").

Further, by your own admission, the 5 FEI was an elite unit, specialising in route-marches, not an average unit. The "adventure" of the 5 FEI is one thing. Another is opening the door to sending an army up (or down) the area, tanks, artillery , trucks, comfort women and all.

The program being what it is, I thing we should aim for the middle ground. Justifying a trail in the hex on the basis of the movement of what probably amounted to, in the military sense, a few stragglers aint it, to my mind.

Tom

[el cid again]

However, I have to question the story of the 5 REI does in fact make a good case for the route being "clearly viable".

You say we're dealing with a battalion-sized unit (500-1,000 men). The circumstances of their escape suggests that they a) werer travelling light b) didn't have to bother about a maintaining a LoC. In short, not a military operation in the normal sense. Forest's reference describes the venture as "adventurous" (abenteuerlichen) and informs us that only a minority made it to China (wenigen Überlebenden). However the wording of the text suggests that the they did fight the Japanese along the way (durchzuschlagen = literally "to break through").

I will agree with you.

But you do not understand my meaning: IF IJA had the ability in fact to push a route like the Burma-Siam RR - where no line existed or was even surveyed - clearly it could relay track and repair bridges over existing foundation without a good deal of trouble. And it could also forgo the rails - and just drive the foundation. A surveyed route with actual foundation in place is a de facto pioneer road in any case - and wholly different from "there is a pass between the mountains" or an uncut trail route through a jungle or forest.

Since you have said you believed only about 60 miles were torn up - and since I have those same 60 miles represented

and since you have said the area should be mountains -
and since I have made those mountains

And since you have said the line should be road (vice RR) where the rails exist and trail otherwise
and since that is what I did BEFORE this discussion

I regard this as a meaningless debate.

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Since you have said you believed only about 60 miles were torn up - and since I have those same 60 miles represented

and since you have said the area should be mountains -
and since I have made those mountains

And since you have said the line should be road (vice RR) where the rails exist and trail otherwise
and since that is what I did BEFORE this discussion

I regard this as a meaningless debate.

I take it this directed at Treespider?

[treespider]

I will agree with you.

But you do not understand my meaning: IF IJA had the ability in fact to push a route like the Burma-Siam RR - where no line existed or was even surveyed - clearly it could relay track and repair bridges over existing foundation without a good deal of trouble. And it could also forgo the rails - and just drive the foundation. A surveyed route with actual foundation in place is a de facto pioneer road in any case - and wholly different from "there is a pass between the mountains" or an uncut trail route through a jungle or forest.

From looking at the photos and the quotation that "The dozens of bridges and tunnels have presumably been destroyed; the Chinese report that they have completely demolished the railway including the roadbed for a distance of 50 miles north of the border and partially for an additional 15 miles. I would venture you do not even have the foundation left in places.

Since you have said you believed only about 60 miles were torn up - and since I have those same 60 miles represented

Correct

and since you have said the area should be mountains -
and since I have made those mountains

Correct

And since you have said the line should be road (vice RR) where the rails exist and trail otherwise
and since that is what I did BEFORE this discussion

I regard this as a meaningless debate.

Never said there should be a trail there....that is what you said. Once again your misstating things .

In post 26 of this thread I said:

I would leave the hex devoid of transportation in light of this quote and the above photos...

I pointed out in some of my other responses that footpaths are in the area ...a far different thing than a trail as represented in the game. You design your game...I choose not to play it.

When people have questions about facts I'll try and provide them with research and back it with citations.

[el cid again]

From looking at the photos and the quotation that "The dozens of bridges and tunnels have presumably been destroyed; the Chinese report that they have completely demolished the railway including the roadbed for a distance of 50 miles north of the border and partially for an additional 15 miles. I would venture you do not even have the foundation left in places.

I do not believe you can destroy a rail roadbed. In particular I do not believe Chinese pioneer methods could do this in any plausable time frame. And I am an engineer. I also got to study this area for an op to get some prisoners. The line seems to be pretty much a case of based on solid rock, and the foundations would not be earth, but gravel or cinders. The really big deal is getting the ability to have a proper grade. Once that is done there is no really easy way to prevent it being redone in a lot less time. We studied doing that too - and didn't try.