How guerillas work

[el cid again]

OK - the CHS standard Chinese guerilla unit requires 73 supply points in Dec 1941. I have tied these units to their assigned area - but did so in a way that under pressure they can retreat. I gave them something no other land unit has - organic supply. ROC units get 75 points per day - enough to maintain them at about 2/3 strength - which is about right. The KMT got along well enough to survive in a functional sense - but never well enough to get fat. IF a ROC unit is ALSO able to draw regular supply, it will build up to full strength. But once cut off from regular supply, it will tend to attrit back to its 2/3 level.

Now the Red Army units get 150 points per day. More than they need to build up to full strength. This because they had a very politic policy about behaviors in guerilla areas - read The Military Writings of Mao Tse Tung and Thunder Out of China. These units will tend to be able to share supplies with other units - although not very often in any significant degree.

We could issue NEW gurilla units too - and without a static device they will move for a short while - but once they "recover it" they will end up tied to their area too. This would allow players to place such units in different places. They might not make it - and that is not bad simulation - because sometimes a district didn't accept a new gurilla unit and sometimes it had trouble getting there in the vast distances of disrupted China.

[treespider]

Just one thing to consider...by making the guerillas static you remove their potential as a threat.

One other thing...does the daily supply allocation to the unit work?....If it does by giving the unit 75 points a day you have increased supply by 30x75pts/dayx# of units or 2250 points per month per unit.

[el cid again]

Just one thing to consider...by making the guerillas static you remove their potential as a threat.

I have no idea what you mean by this. I am trying to simulate the real situation. The only viable options I see are to entirely remove guerillas from the game - it isn't designed for them and they clearly should not be able to function like line units - or to give them some sort of district resistence role. I am trying to save the concept of these units - and I have axed other dead wood - because it is not working or not compatible with the system design (Japanese tiny armed patrol boats rated as escort vessels - minesweepers - etc are gone - and we now have slots to add missing ships in. Allied rocket armed craft that won't work - we don't know why - are gone - and same same - we have slots for things that work.) Professional attitudes about managing a simulation require we get rid of what isn't right: guerillas indistinguishable from regulars are not right. But these guys - they will tend to survive and regenerate - and be a harrassing force in a particular area - they may be good simulation. If not - we get rid of them altogether. I am betting we will like them.

[el cid again]

One other thing...does the daily supply allocation to the unit work?....If it does by giving the unit 75 points a day you have increased supply by 30x75pts/dayx# of units or 2250 points per month per unit.

Time will tell. Does a unit actually use its supply requirements? If not, we may have to reduce the allocation. If I am right, a unit uses more supplies when fighting - and less when not. I allowed the game to "tell me" what the unit needs. Is it telling the truth?

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

One other thing...does the daily supply allocation to the unit work?....If it does by giving the unit 75 points a day you have increased supply by 30x75pts/dayx# of units or 2250 points per month per unit.

Time will tell. Does a unit actually use its supply requirements? If not, we may have to reduce the allocation. If I am right, a unit uses more supplies when fighting - and less when not. I allowed the game to "tell me" what the unit needs. Is it telling the truth?

On average "in the game" outside of combat - a unit need 1 supply point per month per squad. 1/2 point per disabled squad.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Just one thing to consider...by making the guerillas static you remove their potential as a threat.

I have no idea what you mean by this. I am trying to simulate the real situation. The only viable options I see are to entirely remove guerillas from the game - it isn't designed for them and they clearly should not be able to function like line units - or to give them some sort of district resistence role. I am trying to save the concept of these units - and I have axed other dead wood - because it is not working or not compatible with the system design (Japanese tiny armed patrol boats rated as escort vessels - minesweepers - etc are gone - and we now have slots to add missing ships in. Allied rocket armed craft that won't work - we don't know why - are gone - and same same - we have slots for things that work.) Professional attitudes about managing a simulation require we get rid of what isn't right: guerillas indistinguishable from regulars are not right. But these guys - they will tend to survive and regenerate - and be a harrassing force in a particular area - they may be good simulation. If not - we get rid of them altogether. I am betting we will like them.

Given the code in its current fashion and the inability to alter Guerilla values in China short of adding inland port facilities which wouldn't be connected to any sort of water we decided on the concept of the guerilla units. They were intended to present the Japanese with a conundrum at the start of the game....

#1 The Japanese could ignore them and mass for the usual blitzkrieg China assaults, due to the low garrison values generated by the code and the guerillas could move out onto the transportation net and cut supply lines. By making the guerillas 'Corps' (Armies) (which they were designated as historically anyway)...would allow the Chinese player to divide them and create even more gnats.

#2 If the Japanese did not ignore them they delayed their Blitzkrieg and the chinese could prepare their defenses to their liking.

By making the guerillas static you remove their potential as a threat - as if they are not on a transportation hex they can be effectively ignored because they are static.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: treespider

By making the guerillas static you remove their potential as a threat - as if they are not on a transportation hex they can be effectively ignored because they are static.

Yup, static guerillas soundlike a good idea but they're effectively useless in game terms. The only workable fix for China probably is (IMHO) to give both sides high fortification values (3-6) at start - even for units not located in bases. This would make any offensive action in China a tough affair.

K

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
The only workable fix for China probably is (IMHO) to give both sides high fortification values (3-6) at start - even for units not located in bases. This would make any offensive action in China a tough affair.

That is what Nik did for his mod. Made everything fort level 9. In CHS, a few Chinese bases have been given increased fort levels, but nowhere near on the same scale. I was thinking about bumping them up a little more, but I am not sure - China may be OK as is in CHS. Hard to tell without more playtesting.

Andrew

[el cid again]

On average "in the game" outside of combat - a unit need 1 supply point per month per squad. 1/2 point per disabled squad.

Uh - OK. But do you know the relationship with the "supplies required" display in the unit? Is that simply a count of squads?

[el cid again]

Given the code in its current fashion and the inability to alter Guerilla values in China short of adding inland port facilities which wouldn't be connected to any sort of water we decided on the concept of the guerilla units. They were intended to present the Japanese with a conundrum at the start of the game....

1) Tell me more - about the desire for "ports inland"? I HAVE put them inside China - far up the Yangze - and some distance up the Pearl River.
Not sure how they help the Allies? I feared they might help the Japanese (I imagine gunfire support for example. But China kept two ancient heavy cruisers in China just for that task.) Anyway- with my map you have inland ports. What good are they (aside from Wuhan Shipyard now can fix ships)?

2) I think you DID succeed with guerilla units. I like them. I am trying to make them more realistic. They are not units that can join major active forces in a concentraion - except for one that happens to be in the right hex - which is correct. They also may turn out to be really nice being able to "live off the land". In effect I am using your technique to feed the guerillas instead of town. Looks like I have to divide their food by 30, though. Guess that is 3 for ROC and 6 for Red.

[el cid again]

#1 The Japanese could ignore them and mass for the usual blitzkrieg China assaults, due to the low garrison values generated by the code and the guerillas could move out onto the transportation net and cut supply lines. By making the guerillas 'Corps' (Armies) (which they were designated as historically anyway)...would allow the Chinese player to divide them and create even more gnats.

Boy am I confused. I didn't think Chinese corps could divide. And these units you made are only two companies strong - not much of a corps - not worth a whit if they divide. I have to rethink this entirely. Your TO&E gave them 9 mortars (only 6 issued to start) - and no machine guns (I added two per company - for me a company is 3 platoons of 3 squads, plus heavy weapons - in this case 2 mg - TO&E for China). These units really are battalions - if they go to your full strength they work out to be 3 infantry companies, a mortar section, and a recon platoon - not at all bad for a battalion - but a bit light even for a regiment!

[el cid again]

By making the guerillas static you remove their potential as a threat - as if they are not on a transportation hex they can be effectively ignored because they are static.

Well - that is what guerillas do - particularly in units of the size you issued. They harass lines of communications. I don't want them in a pitched battle - except as an add on if the battle comes to them. This is the entire point of the reform - to not allow players to use irregulars like regulars - particularly not Chinese irregulars. And they really were not mobile. They spend most of their time scouting and doing PR and gathering forage. That is what a historical mod is about - recreating the historical units. Who cares if the Japanese win a game? It is pretty hard for them to do. Were we into play balance we would give the Japanese a lot more help than the Allies.

I don't think you understand what guerillas are - or why they are a problem. They seem to code to be real - so they have a ZOC. They really cut the line of communications - unless dealt with. I have made them regenerate and slightly mobile - I think it will turn out to be good simulation. But my goal is not some sort of "play balance" - it is to simulate their role.

[el cid again]

Yup, static guerillas soundlike a good idea but they're effectively useless in game terms. The only workable fix for China probably is (IMHO) to give both sides high fortification values (3-6) at start - even for units not located in bases. This would make any offensive action in China a tough affair.

I have no idea whatever what that simulates. I do not like too abstract a model - one where I have no clue what things mean. [I once got Pacific War. I had no idea what it was about? I could not relate "units" to anything real.] I need at least a rationalization for what I do - and I prefer an actual theory of why this is related to that. But I am an optimist: I don't think it was ever easy to take on China and not take critical amounts of force from other fronts; I think it is going to be harder now I have China roughed up, and its economy working. I also do not believe the Japanese were totally insane: badly organized and unfocused may be - but the idea Japan could beat China was not out of the question. IF we made it impossible, I would regard that as improper simulation too. I want it to be hard - not impossible. Since I think it is hard - I am just tying to make it harder. But I won't cheat by creating some sort of fictional unit. Missing mountains? Sure. Disfunctional industry - lack of critical roads? Sure. More units maybe? Fine - if there are some. Tie down the HQ to their locations for political reasons? Did that. But either the guerillas find a role as such, or I don't want them. I think they will do fine. Lets test and find out.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Given the code in its current fashion and the inability to alter Guerilla values in China short of adding inland port facilities which wouldn't be connected to any sort of water we decided on the concept of the guerilla units. They were intended to present the Japanese with a conundrum at the start of the game....

1) Tell me more - about the desire for "ports inland"? I HAVE put them inside China - far up the Yangze - and some distance up the Pearl River.
Not sure how they help the Allies? I feared they might help the Japanese (I imagine gunfire support for example. But China kept two ancient heavy cruisers in China just for that task.) Anyway- with my map you have inland ports. What good are they (aside from Wuhan Shipyard now can fix ships)?

Per the manual ...the guerilla value of a base is the (Industry+Resources)/2 + (Airfields +Ports)*10. Therefore the only way to effectively add to the Partisan/guerilla value of a base is to add industry (which would affect HI output), resources (which affects resources and supply levels), airfields, and ports. If you add a port to an inland Chinese base it will add to the guerilla value of the base up to 90 points worth.

2) I think you DID succeed with guerilla units. I like them. I am trying to make them more realistic. They are not units that can join major active forces in a concentraion - except for one that happens to be in the right hex - which is correct. They also may turn out to be really nice being able to "live off the land". In effect I am using your technique to feed the guerillas instead of town. Looks like I have to divide their food by 30, though. Guess that is 3 for ROC and 6 for Red.

The TO&E was something we came up with to simulate a light infantry/guerilla unit which would not have a lot of heavy weapons nore be able to stand up to a regular unit in a fight. Feel free to change for your scenario...

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

#1 The Japanese could ignore them and mass for the usual blitzkrieg China assaults, due to the low garrison values generated by the code and the guerillas could move out onto the transportation net and cut supply lines. By making the guerillas 'Corps' (Armies) (which they were designated as historically anyway)...would allow the Chinese player to divide them and create even more gnats.

Boy am I confused. I didn't think Chinese corps could divide. And these units you made are only two companies strong - not much of a corps - not worth a whit if they divide. I have to rethink this entirely. Your TO&E gave them 9 mortars (only 6 issued to start) - and no machine guns (I added two per company - for me a company is 3 platoons of 3 squads, plus heavy weapons - in this case 2 mg - TO&E for China). These units really are battalions - if they go to your full strength they work out to be 3 infantry companies, a mortar section, and a recon platoon - not at all bad for a battalion - but a bit light even for a regiment!

Any unit coded as a corps, division or brigade can divide. Remember the guerilla "corps" are not representing your normal line infantry unit. As I put in the previous post the guerilla unit is an abstarction compensating for the formula for partisan values the code provides.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

By making the guerillas static you remove their potential as a threat - as if they are not on a transportation hex they can be effectively ignored because they are static.

Well - that is what guerillas do - particularly in units of the size you issued. They harass lines of communications. I don't want them in a pitched battle - except as an add on if the battle comes to them. This is the entire point of the reform - to not allow players to use irregulars like regulars - particularly not Chinese irregulars. And they really were not mobile. They spend most of their time scouting and doing PR and gathering forage. That is what a historical mod is about - recreating the historical units. Who cares if the Japanese win a game? It is pretty hard for them to do. Were we into play balance we would give the Japanese a lot more help than the Allies.

I don't think you understand what guerillas are - or why they are a problem. They seem to code to be real - so they have a ZOC. They really cut the line of communications - unless dealt with. I have made them regenerate and slightly mobile - I think it will turn out to be good simulation. But my goal is not some sort of "play balance" - it is to simulate their role.

Unless the guerilla unit is on a transporation line they don't cut the line. How do they get onto the line if they are static?

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Yup, static guerillas soundlike a good idea but they're effectively useless in game terms. The only workable fix for China probably is (IMHO) to give both sides high fortification values (3-6) at start - even for units not located in bases. This would make any offensive action in China a tough affair.

I have no idea whatever what that simulates. I do not like too abstract a model - one where I have no clue what things mean. [I once got Pacific War. I had no idea what it was about? I could not relate "units" to anything real.] I need at least a rationalization for what I do - and I prefer an actual theory of why this is related to that. But I am an optimist: I don't think it was ever easy to take on China and not take critical amounts of force from other fronts; I think it is going to be harder now I have China roughed up, and its economy working. I also do not believe the Japanese were totally insane: badly organized and unfocused may be - but the idea Japan could beat China was not out of the question. IF we made it impossible, I would regard that as improper simulation too. I want it to be hard - not impossible. Since I think it is hard - I am just tying to make it harder. But I won't cheat by creating some sort of fictional unit. Missing mountains? Sure. Disfunctional industry - lack of critical roads? Sure. More units maybe? Fine - if there are some. Tie down the HQ to their locations for political reasons? Did that. But either the guerillas find a role as such, or I don't want them. I think they will do fine. Lets test and find out.

My approach to the guerilla conundrum...which will hopefully be in the Experimental CHS.... I've created six guerilla bases. None of the bases will be on the existing transportation net. Each of the bases will have a fort level of 50 and receive a daily supply allocation to support itself. In addition I will be converting six of the Chinese AIR base forces into Guerilla base forces (very large static units with some heavy weapons). Then operating from these will be the smaller guerilla "corps" which will be mobile. The idea is that the guerilla bases will provide a "safe" haven for the smaller guerilla "corps" that will operate from them. The idea is to make the Japanese commit a substantial (if not prohibitive force) to the elimination of the guerilla base.

Initially I considered (but have since opted NOT to) making the bases Soviet - the effect of which would prevent the Japanese from using them as training grounds for their aircraft as they may not target bases coded as Soviet with aiurcraft until the Soviets are active. However the Soviets would NOT be activated if the base were taken by the Japanese as Soviet activation does not occur until the Japanese cross the Soviet border.

In addition I will be converting a number of the existing chinese corps into guerilla corps and adding additional corps to the OOB.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

By making the guerillas static you remove their potential as a threat - as if they are not on a transportation hex they can be effectively ignored because they are static.

Well - that is what guerillas do - particularly in units of the size you issued. They harass lines of communications. I don't want them in a pitched battle - except as an add on if the battle comes to them. This is the entire point of the reform - to not allow players to use irregulars like regulars - particularly not Chinese irregulars. And they really were not mobile. They spend most of their time scouting and doing PR and gathering forage. That is what a historical mod is about - recreating the historical units. Who cares if the Japanese win a game? It is pretty hard for them to do. Were we into play balance we would give the Japanese a lot more help than the Allies.

I don't think you understand what guerillas are - or why they are a problem. They seem to code to be real - so they have a ZOC. They really cut the line of communications - unless dealt with. I have made them regenerate and slightly mobile - I think it will turn out to be good simulation. But my goal is not some sort of "play balance" - it is to simulate their role.

So you are saying that the Chinese guerillas did not harass the Japanese lines of communication IRL? I contend that they most certainly did. I will also contend that the guerillas were not as immobile as you point out. Yes they had areas of operations but they were constantly shifting between these areas.

In the game if a unit is static it will not move onto a transportation line to harass or cut it. Therefore in the game I can ignore a guerilla (or any unit for that matter) that is static and is in a position that I do not consider important. Certainly this is not the situation the Japanese were facing IRL.

[rockmedic109]

Got a question about Chinese Guerillas. When they are destroyed, do they come back into the reinforcement list and show up at Chungking in 60 days? If so, do they show up static?

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

Got a question about Chinese Guerillas. When they are destroyed, do they come back into the reinforcement list and show up at Chungking in 60 days? If so, do they show up static?

In CHS the guerillas currently are not static nor will they be. Yes when destroyed they will reappear just like any other Chinese unit at Chungking. ...


Your question does raise an interesting point...if a unit that is static because of the inclusion of an arbitrary device...like iirc 527-fortifications in CHS...and none of those devices are in a pool at the time the unit is scheduled to return....Will the unit return?