How guerillas work

[rockmedic109]

Or if it returns, will it return without it and get it as a replacement freezing a coastal defense unit somewhere near Alice Springs during a move from Sydney to Darwin?

[el cid again]

The TO&E was something we came up with to simulate a light infantry/guerilla unit which would not have a lot of heavy weapons nore be able to stand up to a regular unit in a fight. Feel free to change for your scenario...

Except for your choice to support the unit with mortars instead of mmgs, you did well. It is rare to have mortars in guerilla units - and very rare to have an entire battery of them. But machine guns are, for a larger unit, almost impossible to do without. In this system anything smaller than a battalion should not normally show up (the Australian Special Independent Company is an exception). And the targets of squad and platoon ambushes are simply invisible on this scale - they are represented by the ZOC mostly. Since you picked a battalion size force - you picked the smallest unit that might really work at this scale of resolution. But I think it is better to let its ZOCs represent "division" - and not sub-divide it farther. Thus I call these units "regiments" - still exaggerated but indivisible. And I give them mmgs. They seem to do OK. I had one fight a battle and it went from 40 to 23 squads, lost its static device and now is wandering around South China (under AI control). It should now grow back - and fix itself somewhere - and if I bossed it I could tell it where. Very nice - when you want to mess with the enemy LOC - of make him garrison it.

[el cid again]

Unless the guerilla unit is on a transporation line they don't cut the line. How do they get onto the line if they are static?

It depends on the terrain situation. You cannot see it entirely (unless you look under the hood at the pwhex file). But there are two cases:

Case 1: The guerilla unit IS directly sitting on a line of communications. IF the terrain is mountain or forest, this is a very good situation to be in defensively - the line is open to friendly and closed to hostile forces.

Case 2: The guerilla unit is adjacent to a line of communications in a hex which permits its ZOC to affect the line. In that case the LOC will be cut if the enemy does not garrison the line. Actually pretty good simulation, considering the scale.

[el cid again]

My approach to the guerilla conundrum...which will hopefully be in the Experimental CHS.... I've created six guerilla bases. None of the bases will be on the existing transportation net. Each of the bases will have a fort level of 50 and receive a daily supply allocation to support itself.

And this represents exactly what in real life?

And what happens when the base falls to the enemy - they now get the supplies you wanted to give to the Chinese - and there is no damage slowing down their arrival - they all appear instantly? I hope I am confused - because if I am not - this is a pure distortion with potential severe aid to the side you hope to "slow down."

[el cid again]

Initially I considered (but have since opted NOT to) making the bases Soviet - the effect of which would prevent the Japanese from using them as training grounds for their aircraft as they may not target bases coded as Soviet with aiurcraft until the Soviets are active.

Which is going to fall apart for players using the Soviets active - either up front - or because Japan has activated them. Again - this is a gamey solution - not rooted in simulating anything real - with potential downside consequences of a major sort. I come from the other side of the hill - simulation as opposed to gaming for fun - and I don't like not even trying to model real things. I will trick the code if I have to - but if I have to - I try not to risk things going the opposite way from my intent. Further, you are not respecting player choices: you are not allowing the Soviets to be active and your system functional at the same time when you come up with an idea like this. It IS good brainstorming - but like most brainstorm ideas - it is good it does not get implemented. I applaud your decision not to do it.

[el cid again]

So you are saying that the Chinese guerillas did not harass the Japanese lines of communication IRL? I contend that they most certainly did. I will also contend that the guerillas were not as immobile as you point out. Yes they had areas of operations but they were constantly shifting between these areas.

I try to write precisely. I certainly did not say Chinese guerillas did not harass the Japanese LOC - much less believe it. But note YOUR terminology: "harass." That is EXACTLY what they did. NOT "close" - unless uncontested. By creating units you permit to move and concentrate with other units at the whim of a player - you have created what amounts to baby regular units - not guerillas. And you give them no special powers either. Neither do you tie them to an area. These hexes represent a vast area - and to walking units avoiding main roads there is not much chance they can do more than patrol adjacent hexes. Taken with adjacent hexes, the units influence an area 180 statute milies in diameter - in excess of 25,000 sq miles (influence in the ZOC sense) and they operate (in the sense they can attack and certainly block a road) in an area over 2,800 sq miles. These data are very optimistic for units of the sort described, not in the least an unrealistic limitation on what they might be able to do. Further these units really were tied to a district - and normally were formed of people from that district - who could not be as effective in another place. There are 635 languages in China, and you don't know the terrain somewhere you have never been, and you don't have friends and relatives there either: yet your units don't lose effectiveness for moving - which they really would if they really moved very far.

[el cid again]

Therefore in the game I can ignore a guerilla (or any unit for that matter) that is static and is in a position that I do not consider important.

Interesting language: listen to what you said: you cannot ignore a unit in a position you do consider important. So we put the guerilla units in places that matter. Sounds pretty simple to me. And while you are at it - try to remember that "harassing" is not the same thing as "attacking" a major combat formation in the field. You are constantly failing to address the issue: what prevents players from treating your guerilla unit as just a minor regular unit- concentrating them along with regular ones for an attack? By ignoring the issue you are not solving the technical problem with a rather neat concept - adding a nice (if marginal) capability - and creating more drag on the Japanese than the game design allowed for. I LIKE your idea - and I am trying to make it work. Work with me instead of just pretending these are somehow the same. IF they ARE the same - they are not guerillas at all - whatever you call them. They are just "light recon troops."

[el cid again]

Got a question about Chinese Guerillas. When they are destroyed, do they come back into the reinforcement list and show up at Chungking in 60 days? If so, do they show up static?

What qualifies a unit to regenerate? These units are classified as normal, so they should - unless it is a slot driven thing. When they come back, it will depend on luck if they are mobile or not: they have but one static device and it easily may be absent - for a while. But I think you should be raising new ones WITHOUT the static unit - so you have a little time to move them into position. This I am testing.

[el cid again]

Your question does raise an interesting point...if a unit that is static because of the inclusion of an arbitrary device...like iirc 527-fortifications in CHS...and none of those devices are in a pool at the time the unit is scheduled to return....Will the unit return?

FYI my "static facility" is your "static fortification" - same slot - 527.
I don't regard it as a fortification.

If a unit is defined as a reinforcement without a 527 - but points at a formation with a 527 in it - it will normally build up to include that device - and then it will "plant" itself. Since I put only one 527 in the unit - it usually dies before the whole unit does - and then the unit becomes mobile for a while! [That was a problem with the 527 - I just am exploiting that problem to my own ends - to prevent players from moving all guerillas all the time like regular units.]

If a unit is outside the range of a normal production pool, the pool is unlimited, and there is no restriction - so the book say.

[el cid again]

Or if it returns, will it return without it and get it as a replacement freezing a coastal defense unit somewhere near Alice Springs during a move from Sydney to Darwin?

This is my theory. These units will not be able to move long distances if supplies are plentiful - they will "grow roots and plant" somewhere. They need to go where you want them soon - and stay there until planted. If it isn't close - you may be wise to pick a poorly supplied route - which makes it almost certain they won't plant as they move.

Ironically - this is not a bad simulation of the way the KMT really operated. Officers would plan a move in advance - like a business. "What can we buy here that we can sell there at a profit - so we can feed ourselves after we get there." Then go buy "this" and haul it the whole way - and then sell it - before any thought of regular military operations.

FYI I am a student of the ROCA, PLA and IJA - and I am semi-actively (and semi-officially) involved with the modern ROCA. While Japan is no longer the enemy, my point of view is pro ROC and would have been during WWII. Also - the modern ROCA OB is harder to get than the modern PLA is - and it is changing radically. I have the most detailed open source material available on this subject if anyone is interested.

[CobraAus]

I raise a question a guerilla unit losses the device that is holding it place (static) and is now mobile for a time - what happens if 1. a player decides to transport by air to another loction and 2 while in transit with part of the unit, the device returns and the unit is now static again

will the remaining part of the unit still to be transported fail to move and you end up with a fragmented group ??

Just a stray thought

Cobra AUS

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Unless the guerilla unit is on a transporation line they don't cut the line. How do they get onto the line if they are static?

It depends on the terrain situation. You cannot see it entirely (unless you look under the hood at the pwhex file). But there are two cases:

Case 1: The guerilla unit IS directly sitting on a line of communications. IF the terrain is mountain or forest, this is a very good situation to be in defensively - the line is open to friendly and closed to hostile forces.

Case 2: The guerilla unit is adjacent to a line of communications in a hex which permits its ZOC to affect the line. In that case the LOC will be cut if the enemy does not garrison the line. Actually pretty good simulation, considering the scale.

CID you need to read the manual and the list of chnages in the patch lists:

Regarding ZOC's:

4) Land based units now maintain and leave a zone of control in the hex they occupy or have transited. Enemy units may not trace supply or retreat though one of these zones or move from of these one zones to another. If both sides occupy a hex, zones for both sides are present. To see where the zones are, the player should press “w”. This will cause a white “A” (for Allies) or "J" (for Japanese) to appear on the map in each hex with a zone. If both sides occupy the hex, a letter for each side will appear.

Unlike other wargames units do not project ZOC's into adjacent hexes. So your Case 2 is not valid.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

My approach to the guerilla conundrum...which will hopefully be in the Experimental CHS.... I've created six guerilla bases. None of the bases will be on the existing transportation net. Each of the bases will have a fort level of 50 and receive a daily supply allocation to support itself.

And this represents exactly what in real life?

And what happens when the base falls to the enemy - they now get the supplies you wanted to give to the Chinese - and there is no damage slowing down their arrival - they all appear instantly? I hope I am confused - because if I am not - this is a pure distortion with potential severe aid to the side you hope to "slow down."

CID once again read the manual...I might direct you to page 192:

Rule 14.7 Capturing Base Resources

A base that generates a daily allotment of supplies, fuel, oil and/or resources will not generate these items if the nationality of the base is not part of the side that controls the base.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Therefore in the game I can ignore a guerilla (or any unit for that matter) that is static and is in a position that I do not consider important.

Interesting language: listen to what you said: you cannot ignore a unit in a position you do consider important. So we put the guerilla units in places that matter. Sounds pretty simple to me. And while you are at it - try to remember that "harassing" is not the same thing as "attacking" a major combat formation in the field. You are constantly failing to address the issue: what prevents players from treating your guerilla unit as just a minor regular unit- concentrating them along with regular ones for an attack? By ignoring the issue you are not solving the technical problem with a rather neat concept - adding a nice (if marginal) capability - and creating more drag on the Japanese than the game design allowed for. I LIKE your idea - and I am trying to make it work. Work with me instead of just pretending these are somehow the same. IF they ARE the same - they are not guerillas at all - whatever you call them. They are just "light recon troops."

You need to read the history of the Sino-Japanese war... The Chinese consistently used guerilla units in pitched battles along with line units. One thing you need to remember is that the Chinese Guerilla "corps" are listed as line units in the Chinese OoB but were ordered to conduct guerilla operations in an area.

[el cid again]

I raise a question a guerilla unit losses the device that is holding it place (static) and is now mobile for a time - what happens if 1. a player decides to transport by air to another loction and 2 while in transit with part of the unit, the device returns and the unit is now static again

will the remaining part of the unit still to be transported fail to move and you end up with a fragmented group ??

I believe you will find that Chinese units are not allowed to air transport. However, theoretically this technique might be applied to a non-Chiense device, or a Chinese unit might be assigened to an unrestricted command (using political points). [Why you would want a Chinese guerilla unit under Pacific Fleet is another subject?] In that case, the part that had the device would refuse to move, and the other part would act as if it didn't have the device - since it does not.

[el cid again]

Unlike other wargames units do not project ZOC's into adjacent hexes. So your Case 2 is not valid.

Thanks. That is a bit strange. But if the manual is correct, you appear to be right. It makes sense - given the huge areas represented - and on balance I agree with the rule. It is unfortunate for our guerillas, but really a 2800 sq mile area is still probably unrealistically large - so we should not be too upset.

I wonder if there is a field that tracks where the unit "transited from"? If I find this (I can see hiddden fields in records) I can assign one hex at will. Have PCs, Will Test (new logo for my non-profit business card).

[el cid again]

CID once again read the manual...I might direct you to page 192:

quote:


Rule 14.7 Capturing Base Resources

A base that generates a daily allotment of supplies, fuel, oil and/or resources will not generate these items if the nationality of the base is not part of the side that controls the base.

Andrew said that - and if we can believe the manual (I get burned believing it regularly - it isn't always right) - I am glad. This is a good rule - more than I dared hope for.

[el cid again]

The Chinese consistently used guerilla units in pitched battles along with line units. One thing you need to remember is that the Chinese Guerilla "corps" are listed as line units in the Chinese OoB but were ordered to conduct guerilla operations in an area.

You are quite correct. The ROC routinely used real line units as guerilla units. The Reds were a bit different and might form a special guerilla unit - or not.

BUT I really am a student of ROC and PLA - and their historical context. Until the 1990s the Chinese system was very different from anything you have experience with in the West. It had a lot more to do with tradition - and the traditional economics - of China than modern concepts. The point is that a "line unit" in ROCA is not like a Federal US "line unit." It is not even like a National Guard US line unit. It is closer to a State Guard (State Defense Force) unit - units which have not been in the line in modern times (but which were the main body in the US Civil War). State Guard units serve WITHOUT PAY (even now - and I am speaking from experience) UNLESS committed to a real (not a training) operation. State Guard unit soldiers provide THEIR OWN uniforms and equipment (although in my state we have a foundation that helps with the latter) - and in the rare cases that vehicles or heavy weapons (or in our case even aircraft) exist, they are private ones - even if given military markings. In China the system went one step farther: the troops were not paid from ANY tax system at all. The Chinese did have a concept of taxes (there is a saying in Chinese "when the tax collector comes the cow will hide in the Kaoliang" - Kaoliang is a plant like corn you can hide in a field of) - but it was collected in kind - cows - rice - etc - and it was not based on proper records - and it was not efficiently administered - very little gets to the top - nor collected in anything like the amount it would take to finance army units. [Ships are different - because of their nature you had to pay the constructor - so they were "federally" (imperially) funded.] As a result of this foundation, a Chinese unit, Red or Blue (the Chinese terms), would act as I described above. Chinese "military" units run actual businesses (you can cross rivers in military run landing craft, buy wine or whatever made by soldiers, even today), make their own uniforms, sell products so they can give the men some spending money, raise their own food, and make many of their own weapons (often quite illegally licence wise). Further, ROC was a loose alliance of warlordys with a national party - and most troops we see on our map are loyal to a local political leader (being polite). Most troops do not speak Mandarin - particularly in WWII - and those that do won't do as well in the South or West (where they had to be in numbers since Japan held Peking - Nanking is more a Hakklo speaking area). So called "line units" are more like my restricted guerillas than the line troops we pretend they are!

Now it is true that guerillas would - doctrinally - join a fight with line units. But it was the guerillas of that area - and they often were of value - being a bit like LURPS - familiar with the terrain - the enemy - the routes (even routes not on maps). What I am trying to say - and what players will surely abuse if we let them have mobile guerillas - is that these units are NOT able to roam and concentrate. In fact, to be realistic, we should somehow restrict most "line units" similarly - although a "long march" is possible (note it involved the loss of the vast majority of troops involved) it is very rare and should come at the price of great losses in unit strength and morale (representing being in a place they cannot even buy a hot dog language wise). On top of that, an area already had its own local military units, and could not afford to support many others, and would not be friendly to the idea (see the Japanese experience). In fact, this was an area in which the PLA paid formal attention to - ROC was often as bad as IJA usually was (Yamashita excepted). There are cases of "ROC" troops attacking Americans (to steal their vehicles and their contents) - these were indistinguishable from bandits except they had "warrants" from Chunking - and in real life many bandits were actually asked to join the "army" - if army it was. It is very hard to bend your mind around the many alien concepts involved with "line units" of the period - and thinking of them as regulars in any sense we know of is more wrong than right. I have posted this before - and been disbelieved - but in fact Stillwell found the best way to get Chinese troops to fight was to say "I will pay you to take that place." They didn't like to fight - you could get hurt or killed - for nothing! Which was the norm.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Unless the guerilla unit is on a transporation line they don't cut the line. How do they get onto the line if they are static?

It depends on the terrain situation. You cannot see it entirely (unless you look under the hood at the pwhex file). But there are two cases:

Case 1: The guerilla unit IS directly sitting on a line of communications. IF the terrain is mountain or forest, this is a very good situation to be in defensively - the line is open to friendly and closed to hostile forces.

Case 2: The guerilla unit is adjacent to a line of communications in a hex which permits its ZOC to affect the line. In that case the LOC will be cut if the enemy does not garrison the line. Actually pretty good simulation, considering the scale.

Sid, this is false. A unit's ZOC only includes:

A) the hex it is presently in;

B) any hexes it has previously been in (including passed through), until those (previous) hexes have been occupied (including passed through) by an enemy unit.

All the ZOC's can be viewed using the 'w' hot key toggle.

WITP is different than a wargames where ZOC extends to adjacent hexes. This misunderstanding might be messing up your planning efforts with guerilla units.

[EDIT: Drats! Wrote this before reading page 2. Didn't mean to pile on.]

[Aawulf]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

CID once again read the manual...I might direct you to page 192:

quote:


Rule 14.7 Capturing Base Resources

A base that generates a daily allotment of supplies, fuel, oil and/or resources will not generate these items if the nationality of the base is not part of the side that controls the base.

Andrew said that - and if we can believe the manual (I get burned believing it regularly - it isn't always right) - I am glad. This is a good rule - more than I dared hope for.

You shouldn't dare hope because this rule doesn't work in the game.