Unit Depictions on Screen

[macgregor]

Awesome looking planes! My thoughts about counter detail were that as long as there was some way to open a counter into a full-screen graphic (something I think you're working on as well) I would be happy with them even if they were simplified on the board(for speed). I'm thilled you were able to put them on the pieces though.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: scout1

I have to agree, the graphics/layout of these counters is nothing less than stunning ....

Dumb OT question (No I'm not asking for any change), but why do we make counters for pc games square instead of hexagonal ? It would have been nice for thecarboard ones to be hexagontal as they would have fit in the squares, next to each other better ....

If the counters filled the hex completely, then you would not be able to see the underlying terrain. If the counters are make hexagonal but a smaller size, then the map would be very strange to look at with all the hexagons within hexagons. The human eye detects different patterns easily, so the hexagonal shapes are interpreted as terrain and the rectangular shapes as units. Shape => Game element.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Those Italian bombers names could be modificated in your Unit file by removing the blank space and putting a dot.
Anyway, that's the way they were written usually.
P 108A is P.108A, SM 82 is SM.82, etc...

It may also fail with the German planes if there is a space within the name (Bf 109E). In that case, simply remove the blank space.

For the names of the LND bombers, maybe you could put the usual name (Mitchell, Dominator, etc...) on the top of the counter, as for the NAV, and lower the picture by a couple of pixels.
I think that we don't care if the right wing is partialy covered by the range circle.

Or better, for both the NAVs and the LND, put the designation on the top (A-20, B-25, A-31) as for the Fighters, and the usual name (Boston, Mitchell, Vengeance) on the bottom where the designation is presently.
This would be more consistent within all the planes.

Removing the blanks by replacing them with periods and collapsing them for the Germans are excellent suggestions and much better than what I had come up with so far. Will do. Thanks.

Repositioning the official and Also Known As names won't work though. There just isn't enough room available on some of the counters. Obscuring the plane's wing with the extended range arrow is unacceptable to me. I would fret about it forever.

The standard is actually to have the official names at the bottom of the unit. Only the fighters have it at the top. To move it to the bottom for the fighters means moving the location of the range for the fighters. Now that is trivial to program but it deviates from the WIF FE location and I am trying to maintain continuity between MWIF and WIF FE whenever reasonably possible.

On the plus side, I see the design for all the fighters, naval air, and carrier air units as done at this point. Most of the ATRs are good to go too with the exception of the large transports and a few other weirdos. It is only the bombers that are difficult. When all is said and done, I like ADG's solution (WIF FE) for the bombers best. Place the AKA names on the left and hyphenate them. This will only require special attention for 40 or 50 planes can be done in a couple of hours at most.

[Froonp]

Hello,

Watching at the planes profiles closer, I spotted something strange.
Look at the picture below.
The top couple of planes are from your latest screenshot.
The middle one is from a scan of the actual countersheet.
The last one is a screenshot from the PDF version of the countersheet found in ADG's Companion CD 2.

Why is there this difference in the camouflage of the planes ?

It is not limited to those planes, all the planes have strange camouflages.
Here, the F2A & P-40 camo looks like a tiger skin.
Is there something the graphic artist is doing that distord the camo ?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Yes. It appears that Rob is working from some other variation of the counter sheets that he found on Harry's disk. I have told him about the problem.

[Froonp]

I have a scan of every CS7 that was published (1992, 1993, 1996, 2000), and none of them has this kind of Zebra camo.
Are you sure it is not the processing that he does with the graphics to take them from the original file that does that ???

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I have a scan of every CS7 that was published (1992, 1993, 1996, 2000), and none of them has this kind of Zebra camo.
Are you sure it is not the processing that he does with the graphics to take them from the original file that does that ???

Rob has access to a lot of the variations that were never offically published.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

The code for putting the high resolution naval units on the screen is done. Not all the counters have been converted from the WIF FE computer graphics to MWIF bitmaps, but enough that I know the code works.

Here is part of the US navy and some of the accompanying carrier air units. I have them spread out for your viewing pleasure.

The numbers inside of squares indicate the carrier class. The carrier air units with a black 7 square fit on a carrier with a black 7 square. There are more rules about this, but that is the general idea.

I haven't done the convoy, naval transport, amphibious unit, and submarine counters yet. For them, I will be using just a single bitmap each. Conversely, every named naval unit has a unique picture (bitmap).

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Here is a second screen shot of the carrier air units - this time for Japan.

[stretch]

absolutely awesome. It's really starting to hit home how crucial these nice graphics are to caryring the mood of the game to the computer.

[Froonp]

Hello,

These are awesome ! [&o]

Hey, even if awesome they are, may I ask for someting more ? [8D]
The real counters do not have it, but in fact they have it somehow (on the back of the counter with the cost, and the little graphic) but would it be possible to add on the counter, before the name, the type of ship it is ? BB, CA, CL, CV, CVL ?

[Froonp]

I think that those graphics on the counters, associated with the graphics of the map, all that added to the graphics of the coasts, rivers and lake (only Europe is ready for the moment) are a great achievement. Not to forget the rails, that are great too ! [:D]

Even if the graphics should be a third class item for a strategy computer game (the first class item should be AI, and the second class should be a good system), I'm very pleased we have the WiF graphics in MWiF.

As Stretch had said, you can feel this is WiF !!!! [:D]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Hello,

These are awesome ! [&o]

Hey, even if awesome they are, may I ask for someting more ? [8D]
The real counters do not have it, but in fact they have it somehow (on the back of the counter with the cost, and the little graphic) but would it be possible to add on the counter, before the name, the type of ship it is ? BB, CA, CL, CV, CVL ?

It is trivial to add. It does take up some space. For example, BB Massachusetts would just barely fit (I guess). I would advise against using CVL, and instead, just use CV for both CV's and CVL's.

Now I wonder how many people I outraged with that comment? - But I make it seriously, because I begrudge using the extra space required for the 'L'. As it is, I am going to have to abbreviated the "Franklin Delano Roosevelt" to just "F. D. Roosevelt".

I do not like using two lines for the names here. It is just so much cleaner with one line of text under the ship's graphic.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I think that those graphics on the counters, associated with the graphics of the map, all that added to the graphics of the coasts, rivers and lake (only Europe is ready for the moment) are a great achievement. Not to forget the rails, that are great too ! [:D]

Even if the graphics should be a third class item for a strategy computer game (the first class item should be AI, and the second class should be a good system), I'm very pleased we have the WiF graphics in MWiF.

As Stretch had said, you can feel this is WiF !!!! [:D]

Thanks. That is the specification I am trying to satisfy.

As to strategy games and what they need, I would not give the map and counters a lower importance. If you play a game a lot, you want good graphics. Unless the map and counters have some diversity, they become boring.

I agree the AI opponent is important.

I do not know what you mean by "good system". In its place I would put 2 elements: a game that is interesting/challanging to play and an excellent player interface. I have full confidence that WIF satisfies the first of those criteria.

At this stage of the product develpoment I am gradually shifting my focus to the second one: the player interface. That is what the sequence of play diagrams were all about. It is my intention to focus exclusively on each of the sections in the sequence of play and tailor a piece of the player interface specifically to that section. The player should be able to make well informed decisions with minimal fuss and bother. Those are often contradictory goals, but that just makes doing it right so much more satisfying.

Anyway, all 4 of those aspects of a strategy game are crucial in my opinion, and I do not know that I would give any one of them a higher standing than the others. They are like car wheels, if you don't have all 4, you aren't going anywhere.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I do not like using two lines for the names here. It is just so much cleaner with one line of text under the ship's graphic.

Maybe it is just cleaner, but there is room for 2 lines of text.
There are very few ships who have long names, so it would not be a problem if all those ships had their full names on 2 lines.
I think about the little known Russian or German ships names. It is good to finally see their whole name, and be able to understand a little of their meaning.

For the CVs, it would be better if the CVLs had CVLs written.

[Froonp]

I do not know what you mean by "good system". In its place I would put 2 elements: a game that is interesting/challanging to play and an excellent player interface. I have full confidence that WIF satisfies the first of those criteria.

A "good system" is a well though game (rules & mechanics) about a subject that I like (theme).
An example of missed opportunity for my taste, is Gary Grisby's World at War. It is a subject I love, but it is done in a way I do not like, so this game is not for me at all.

(...)
Anyway, all 4 of those aspects of a strategy game are crucial in my opinion, and I do not know that I would give any one of them a higher standing than the others. They are like car wheels, if you don't have all 4, you aren't going anywhere.

Well, back in the glorious time of Commmodore 64 computers, and magnetic tapes for storing data, I was frantically playing Crusade in Europe from Microprose, and its graphics were very very poor.
Same for all the old SSI games that I played heavily too (Warships, Panzer Strike, Typhoon of Steel, etc...) and the great SSG games (great AI) (Battlefront game system, Carriers at War...)....
All had very poor graphics, and I loved them for their system, theme & AI (for the SSG games, as the SSI games had virtualy none).
Even the player interface was ranking far behind, as when you are motivated for playing some game about an era you like, you learn the interface easily and even if it is poor, you can play the game with the eyes closed after a few (?) hours.

[amwild]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

It is trivial to add. It does take up some space. For example, BB Massachusetts would just barely fit (I guess). I would advise against using CVL, and instead, just use CV for both CV's and CVL's.

Now I wonder how many people I outraged with that comment? - But I make it seriously, because I begrudge using the extra space required for the 'L'. As it is, I am going to have to abbreviated the "Franklin Delano Roosevelt" to just "F. D. Roosevelt".

I do not like using two lines for the names here. It is just so much cleaner with one line of text under the ship's graphic.

The ship graphics are wide but not high, leaving quite a bit of space. You could put the unit type BB/BC/CV/CVL etc. into the area just above the graphic on the left, for example, rather than appending it to the unit name.

As someone without much experience with WiF, and without any experience at all with a version of WiF which has named units, I had to go by the graphics to determine the type of ship, and only then figured out that some of the shapes upon which some of the numbers are printed give a clue to unit type. Even so, I don't know if some of the non-carriers are BBs, BCs, CAs, CLs, DDs, FFs or whatever, just by looking at their names.

While I understand (mostly) what the unit types mean, other WiF newcomers may not, but they will learn faster what units are what with the unit types than without them.

As a related side issue, I would suggest that the help files include a definition of the unit type letter code, and any unit description have both the letter code and its meaning.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I do not like using two lines for the names here. It is just so much cleaner with one line of text under the ship's graphic.

Maybe it is just cleaner, but there is room for 2 lines of text.
There are very few ships who have long names, so it would not be a problem if all those ships had their full names on 2 lines.
I think about the little known Russian or German ships names. It is good to finally see their whole name, and be able to understand a little of their meaning.

For the CVs, it would be better if the CVLs had CVLs written.

Ok, I'll give you the CVL. I wrote the code for this and it looks better with the CVL.

I am sticking with 1 line for the name though. I will have to abbreviate BB Mass. and BB B. H. Richard.

The full name will be kept and shown when the details of the unit are presented in a separate box that describes the unit. The abbreviation will only apply for what is shown on the counter.

The aesthetic I am using here is that the abbreviation (though painful to use) is better than crowding the text onto the counter. I like the image of the ship being larger (a more dominant graphic element) than the text for its name.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: amwild

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

It is trivial to add. It does take up some space. For example, BB Massachusetts would just barely fit (I guess). I would advise against using CVL, and instead, just use CV for both CV's and CVL's.

Now I wonder how many people I outraged with that comment? - But I make it seriously, because I begrudge using the extra space required for the 'L'. As it is, I am going to have to abbreviated the "Franklin Delano Roosevelt" to just "F. D. Roosevelt".

I do not like using two lines for the names here. It is just so much cleaner with one line of text under the ship's graphic.

The ship graphics are wide but not high, leaving quite a bit of space. You could put the unit type BB/BC/CV/CVL etc. into the area just above the graphic on the left, for example, rather than appending it to the unit name.

As someone without much experience with WiF, and without any experience at all with a version of WiF which has named units, I had to go by the graphics to determine the type of ship, and only then figured out that some of the shapes upon which some of the numbers are printed give a clue to unit type. Even so, I don't know if some of the non-carriers are BBs, BCs, CAs, CLs, DDs, FFs or whatever, just by looking at their names.

While I understand (mostly) what the unit types mean, other WiF newcomers may not, but they will learn faster what units are what with the unit types than without them.

As a related side issue, I would suggest that the help files include a definition of the unit type letter code, and any unit description have both the letter code and its meaning.

Yes, I thought about placing the BB et al somewhere else, but I just like the "CV Coral Sea" and BB New Jersey". If you learn to say carrier when you see CV and battleship when you see BB, then these become "the carrier Coral Sea and the battleship New Jersey were engaged with the Japanese fleet ..." Separating the BB loses a little something. Perhaps I am being overly senstitive? Oooh, how about placing the BB above left (as you suggested) but only if the name is so long it wouldn't fit in front of the name? Two different styles for the same item (always incorrect for design work), but a possible compromise.

Yes, not translating all abbreviations is a pet peeve of mine. Though I find it is really hard to remember to define them when you use them. The help system has to include translations for CA et al.

[Froonp]

Yes, I thought about placing the BB et al somewhere else, but I just like the "CV Coral Sea" and BB New Jersey". If you learn to say carrier when you see CV and battleship when you see BB, then these become "the carrier Coral Sea and the battleship New Jersey were engaged with the Japanese fleet ..." Separating the BB loses a little something. Perhaps I am being overly senstitive?

I agree with this.

Oooh, how about placing the BB above left (as you suggested) but only if the name is so long it wouldn't fit in front of the name? Two different styles for the same item (always incorrect for design work), but a possible compromise.

I don't like this.

I will have to abbreviate BB Mass. and BB B. H. Richard.

This is ultimately ugly [:(] (also, Bon Homme Richard is a CV)

Really, as amwild said it too, there is space verticaly, so why not give it a try ? You can anchor the middle of the text zone in a definite place in the counter (in place of anchoring the top of the text zone to a place), so that names that are on 1 line are not higher than names who are on 2 lines, so only some ships will be crowed wit their names.

It will only concern a handfull of ships (10 at most), but it will be sooooo pretty !!!!!

Parizhskaya Kommuna, Oktyabr'skaya Revolutsiya, Sovetskaya Belorussiya, Sovetskaya Ukraina, Schleswig-Holstein thats sooooo great !!!!