The Slant

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami

Post Reply
User avatar
mlees
Posts: 2263
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 6:14 am
Location: San Diego

RE: The Slant

Post by mlees »

We realy dont learn much if anyhting at all from each other do we... we just keep saying and posting the same things over and over and over again, though in diferent ways often, but in the end, it is the same old stuff, and we mostly dont change our tune, perhaps a little but not so much that you would realy notice, unless you paid realy close atention, but then..who does?

Sigh. I was thinking the same thing.

Everyone has their pet peeves, their area of interest (mine is ships, not planes), their own perception of what is "fun", realistic, and/or reasonable.

Then when they butt up against someone else who has a slightly different outlook, but their opinion is just as strongly held, out pops the knives (and the popcorn).
Big B
Posts: 4642
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:41 pm
Location: Cali
Contact:

RE: The Slant

Post by Big B »

[&:]
Mike Scholl
Posts: 6187
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:17 am
Location: Kansas City, MO

RE: The Slant

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

Sure you're right Mike, but a Tony has a lot less impact than a 4E bomber, just as a 4E bomber would have less impact than unlimited a-bombs. Also, your Tony opponent, if I'm not mistaken, can be adjusted, by means of not taking up PDU's in pre-game agreement, but adjusting the 4E bomber rate may not even be alterable at this point.

If you were playing with PDU's, whether you realized it or not how it would play out, that is the main point, as I take it, to using PDU's in that the IJ player has something more of a hypothetical option. Surely you aren't playing that way, if indeed you are, and expecting them to play straight-up by the production numbers? I have no idea how many of most of these planes were produced, only I'm trusting that if I alter nothing, and the factories get bombed at the historic rate (whatever that was), then and only then will I have something resembling the historic amounts. The IJ side is already considerably hypothetic in the first place, when you consider that you change change the factories around.

Weren't playing with PDU's, just the straight Scenario 15 (with upgrades). And the point wasn't which screwed up piece of data effected what the most...., it was that ALL screwed up data needs to be eliminated to the best of our abilities and research. Personally I'm not a big fan of Japanese Production as it's implemented. And most of the "improvements I've seen suggested turned out to be ahistoric boosts to Japanese capabilities. I have to admit I got a big laugh when the PDU rooters found out it worked for BOTH sides and started screaming. I've never even tried a game with PDU turned on. Too much temptation to visit "fantasyland".
User avatar
m10bob
Posts: 8583
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:09 pm
Location: Dismal Seepage Indiana

RE: The Slant

Post by m10bob »

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: m10bob
so I will have to say that, ya the FW 190 was a freaking Pig,


Wow....I ain't never heard that before!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![&:]

It's from "The Gospel according to Brady". I suspect he was smoking something besides tobacco when he wrote it.
Sorry it took so long to respond..I'm just coming off the O2 now..Dr sez I gotta watch my blood pressure when I'm laughing.....
Don't you mean "GOZZPULL"??
I feel for all those poor bastards in the 4th JagdGeshwader who were forced to fly that FW190............
Image

bradfordkay
Posts: 8686
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2002 8:39 am
Location: Olympia, WA

RE: The Slant

Post by bradfordkay »

"Sure you're right Mike, but a Tony has a lot less impact than a 4E bomber, just as a 4E bomber would have less impact than unlimited a-bombs. Also, your Tony opponent, if I'm not mistaken, can be adjusted, by means of not taking up PDU's in pre-game agreement, but adjusting the 4E bomber rate may not even be alterable at this point."

Thing is, the 4E bomber rate HAS been adjusted in CHS and RHS. It was the right thing to do, I feel (though whether it has been implemented correctly is what we're playing to game to find out).

I'm not sure how I feel about Japanese production capabilities in WITP yet. It seems that if they can vastly increase production (to the point of overwhelming numbers), then the allies IRL would have also increased their production numbers. Having a game which allows one side to increase its production tremendously and leaves the other side at historical levels seems off kilter to me...
fair winds,
Brad
User avatar
witpqs
Posts: 26376
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:48 pm
Location: Argleton

RE: The Slant

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Having a game which allows one side to increase its production tremendously and leaves the other side at historical levels seems off kilter to me...

Very off kilter. Even more so since the side that is locked into historical production actually - in that history - reduced production because things were going well. They could have kept production at a higher level, or increased it even higher. But in the game, if things are going poorly 'tough luck' - you're stuck with the historical level.
User avatar
ChezDaJez
Posts: 3293
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:08 am
Location: Chehalis, WA

RE: The Slant

Post by ChezDaJez »

I'm not sure how I feel about Japanese production capabilities in WITP yet. It seems that if they can vastly increase production (to the point of overwhelming numbers), then the allies IRL would have also increased their production numbers. Having a game which allows one side to increase its production tremendously and leaves the other side at historical levels seems off kilter to me...

I have mixed feelings about how production is modeled in the game. I do like fine tuning Japanese production but have found it to be a 2-edged sword with the down side much sharper than the top. Mess with it too much and you are screwed for a very long time.

And that's also why an aggressive Allied player who knows how to use his subs can really put a hurting on the Japanese as was done historically. In order to really boost production to any significant levels, the Japanese player must import resources and oil in fairly massive quantities and must begin doing so as soon as the situation in the DEI allows. The allied player can force the Japanese player to keep a lot of ASW assets patroling the sea lanes which in turn burns fuel and supply.

As far as allied production goes, part of me says, "Damn, you got enough already!" But another part says, "Why not allow the allied player to change it." My only concern in this area is that the allied player could then potentially affect the game to the point where its not worth playing for the Japanese player.

Nothing the Japanese player does with production will change the outcome of the game. Japan will still lose. He can only draw it out longer, assuming auto victory conditions aren't used.

Chez

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98
User avatar
witpqs
Posts: 26376
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:48 pm
Location: Argleton

RE: The Slant

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez


As far as allied production goes, part of me says, "Damn, you got enough already!" But another part says, "Why not allow the allied player to change it." My only concern in this area is that the allied player could then potentially affect the game to the point where its not worth playing for the Japanese player.

I agree here - I feel both ways about it also. The current situation also makes me very unsympathetic to whining about the game being slanted toward the Allies. The war was slanted toward the Allies, the game is slanted toward Japan (to make it worth playing).
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: The Slant

Post by mogami »

Hi, why worry about Japanese production? Japan did not run out of aircraft they had over 26,000 remaining after the surrender (out of 76,000 built)
The Japanese are limited by the number of groups they place aircraft into and they cannot increase this amount. The WITP player will have more active groups in late war because he is unlikely to ever disband any but the same goes for Allied player.

If Japan builds 100,000 A6M2 he will need empty slots in groups and 400,000 supply just to place them on map with an experiance 20 pilot. Then he needs supply to train or fight.

If the player was able to create new groups whenever he wanted it would be a major issue since he is limited then what does it matter if he builds just what he needs when he needs it (my system) or overbuilds like crazy a horde of aircraft he can never use.

I think Japanese players who build hordes of aircraft will in the end wish they had their supply back.
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
pasternakski
Posts: 5567
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2002 7:42 pm

RE: The Slant

Post by pasternakski »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

[The war was slanted toward the Allies, the game is slanted toward Japan (to make it worth playing).
I like the first part, except it wasn't "slanted toward" the Allies. Reality is reality. When you kick the sleeping gorilla in the nuts, expect to get your ass handed to you shortly.

The second part gives me a big problem. If this is so (and I'm not saying it is), it is very poor game design that departs unforgivably from the historical situation.

From Day One of wargaming, play balance has always been the role of victory conditions. The idea was to put you into a historical role and give you the opportunity to outperform your counterpart by comparing your accomplishments to what occurred historically.

"What if" considerations, like OOB variations, were strictly limited to the possibilities and included only after you had come to terms with the game itself. These days, you can't see a new game design even announced before people start clamoring for "modability."

Personally, I prefer to play the game itself, not some eat-from-one-side-or-the-other-of-the-mushroom drug trip fantasy. In WitP, for example, I evaluate my success or failure based on objective criteria I have established with a view toward first trying to figure out who the hell I am and second trying to determine how I did in comparison to that totally fictitious person's real-life accomplishments.

The WitP VP criteria (almost never mentioned in the headlong lemming rush toward "let's change this" and "I'm unhappy with that" land) were poorly thought out at the beginning and have so little relevance to all the fiddling and finagling that has been done to this game as to be - pardon the expression - irrelevant.

"Win" and "Lose" need better definition, but first, the player's role has to be identified and considerations like how well the game mechanics present historicity need to be addressed.

Good luck with all that. We've got what we've got, and I'm living with it. I suggest others do the same.
Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
User avatar
witpqs
Posts: 26376
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:48 pm
Location: Argleton

RE: The Slant

Post by witpqs »

Pasternakski,

I agree with you. As I have said before I want historical capabilites. Victory Conditions are where balance should be considered.

And perhaps I should have written it as "The war was 'slanted' toward the Allies..." to better show the sarcasm I was implying.

Mogami,

I am not overly worried about IJ production. I was commenting on the mythology of this thread topic - that somehow the game is slanted toward the Allies.

Just a comment - from what I hear (I've been an AI player not PBEM) many IJ players have used the production system to greatly increase the availability of certain more effective fighter models. When considering this versus the Allies' production being locked up - that is a slant. Still not worried about it though. [8D]
Mike Scholl
Posts: 6187
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:17 am
Location: Kansas City, MO

RE: The Slant

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

ORIGINAL: witpqs

[The war was slanted toward the Allies, the game is slanted toward Japan (to make it worth playing).
I like the first part, except it wasn't "slanted toward" the Allies. Reality is reality. When you kick the sleeping gorilla in the nuts, expect to get your ass handed to you shortly.

The second part gives me a big problem. If this is so (and I'm not saying it is), it is very poor game design that departs unforgivably from the historical situation.

From Day One of wargaming, play balance has always been the role of victory conditions. The idea was to put you into a historical role and give you the opportunity to outperform your counterpart by comparing your accomplishments to what occurred historically.

"What if" considerations, like OOB variations, were strictly limited to the possibilities and included only after you had come to terms with the game itself. These days, you can't see a new game design even announced before people start clamoring for "modability."

Personally, I prefer to play the game itself, not some eat-from-one-side-or-the-other-of-the-mushroom drug trip fantasy. In WitP, for example, I evaluate my success or failure based on objective criteria I have established with a view toward first trying to figure out who the hell I am and second trying to determine how I did in comparison to that totally fictitious person's real-life accomplishments.

The WitP VP criteria (almost never mentioned in the headlong lemming rush toward "let's change this" and "I'm unhappy with that" land) were poorly thought out at the beginning and have so little relevance to all the fiddling and finagling that has been done to this game as to be - pardon the expression - irrelevant.

"Win" and "Lose" need better definition, but first, the player's role has to be identified and considerations like how well the game mechanics present historicity need to be addressed.

Good luck with all that. We've got what we've got, and I'm living with it. I suggest others do the same.


YES!!! Somebody "Gets it". Thank You, Jee-zus! First make the game as accurate a reflection of the historical realitys as research and effort can produce...., then balance the scenarios with varying "victory conditions". And then throw in an editor so that if the players want to play "Bullshit in the Pacific" they can give either of both sides whatever toys they want to for THEIR scenario. But the GAME's scenarios must be as accurate as possible. Felt like I'd been talking to the wall..., thanks for jumping in.
juliet7bravo
Posts: 893
Joined: Wed May 30, 2001 8:00 am

RE: The Slant

Post by juliet7bravo »

I just don't understand all this talk about "bias" and "fanboy-ism" at all...



Image
Attachments
SurrenderCardj7b.jpg
SurrenderCardj7b.jpg (87.29 KiB) Viewed 278 times
User avatar
witpqs
Posts: 26376
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:48 pm
Location: Argleton

RE: The Slant

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

YES!!! Somebody "Gets it". Thank You, Jee-zus! First make the game as accurate a reflection of the historical realitys as research and effort can produce...., then balance the scenarios with varying "victory conditions". And then throw in an editor so that if the players want to play "Bullshit in the Pacific" they can give either of both sides whatever toys they want to for THEIR scenario. But the GAME's scenarios must be as accurate as possible. Felt like I'd been talking to the wall..., thanks for jumping in.

A bunch of us get it. It just gets lost in all the fanboyism noise.
Mike Scholl
Posts: 6187
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:17 am
Location: Kansas City, MO

RE: The Slant

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

"Sure you're right Mike, but a Tony has a lot less impact than a 4E bomber, just as a 4E bomber would have less impact than unlimited a-bombs. Also, your Tony opponent, if I'm not mistaken, can be adjusted, by means of not taking up PDU's in pre-game agreement, but adjusting the 4E bomber rate may not even be alterable at this point."

Thing is, the 4E bomber rate HAS been adjusted in CHS and RHS. It was the right thing to do, I feel (though whether it has been implemented correctly is what we're playing to game to find out).

I'm not sure how I feel about Japanese production capabilities in WITP yet. It seems that if they can vastly increase production (to the point of overwhelming numbers), then the allies IRL would have also increased their production numbers. Having a game which allows one side to increase its production tremendously and leaves the other side at historical levels seems off kilter to me...

You're right Brad.., but if you correct the 4-engined bombers on the Allied side, THEN the 100's of "extra" Tonys DO have a lot of impact. That's why I maintain that you have to "fix" everything on both sides as much as possible. I really admire the guys working on CHS and RHS..., but I really abhore the fact that such efforts were necessary. That the design team that "sold" us the game seems to have taken such research so lightly, and allowed so many "obvious fallicies" into the database, that such efforts should be necessary by the players.
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: The Slant

Post by mogami »

28 June 2002


"Hi, Most of know enough history to know things that could/should/might have been changed. We know it because the people in the period we talk about (any period will apply) learned it the hard way. I don't want a "Empire" game with ship design and weapons research (others may and that is their choice) In short I want no 20/20 hindsight (impossible to remove since of course having said this I will try to avoid Midway as Japan
and select TF for night fighting in Solomons etc etc).

Basiclly we have to allow Operational hindsight. (its the reason for the game) But when we want to also be able to change national culture (and Have Japanese Army and Navy work hand in hand) And the foresight to build CV's (when most Navy planners were gunners) And some of the other things I think we don't need a game on WW2 in the Pacific but a giant Diplomacy/Empire/Civ II mutant"
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
witpqs
Posts: 26376
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:48 pm
Location: Argleton

RE: The Slant

Post by witpqs »

So you're saying we need mutants?
User avatar
dtravel
Posts: 4533
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 6:34 pm

RE: The Slant

Post by dtravel »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

So you're saying we need mutants?

I'd love to play Fallout again, but it won't run on my current computer. [:(]
This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

Image
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: The Slant

Post by mogami »

Hi, I think we have enough mutants. (Are Borg considered to be mutants?)
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
dtravel
Posts: 4533
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 6:34 pm

RE: The Slant

Post by dtravel »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I think we have enough mutants. (Are Borg considered to be mutants?)

Not by me. They are a form of cyborg.
This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

Image
Post Reply

Return to “War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945”