FILE SET RHS 2.23 Released [Minor update]

[el cid again]

Here is my original post

The main point Is that we should just give the carriers what they had when they entered the map, then let the players mix and match as they want nb only 491 sea fire mk I - III were made ( david brown "Seafire the spitfire that went to sea" )

NB you should consider giving seafires drop tanks 1 x 45 galon for the mk II 1 x 90 gallon for the mk III

it gets a bit tricky if you dont let deck parks be in use it was the main way the Illustrious class boosted their airgroup

There are problems with your proposal:

1) Carrier air groups cannot be reassigned (according to Joe with 12,000 turns under his belt); Try and you end up beaching the group. That certainly happened to me. It isn't like in UV when you could do that.

2) I tried to restrict plane counts - and just threw it ALL away - because I cannot create a "pool" and no production - the only way to do that - except in the case of a plane in service in 1941. If I create a pool for a later plane - they can be used in 1941 as well! There were very few F4U-2 night fighters - but once production begins players can continue to produce them - and probably will. IF we reduce production to a level that means you only get a handful by the end of the war, you essentially do not form up the units that had them in the same year they really formed in. Not in a functional sense.

3) I have no data on Seafire drop tanks. IF you give me some, I can use it. I need the ferry range of the plane with the specific drop tanks - that is the maximum fuel range if you speak airplane technical. This is the WITP field value.

4) Nobody gets deck parks - and nobody should get deck parks - and there cannot be any exceptions. Our decks do NOT lose planes in heavy seas - so the risk IRL is missing. And our ops points do not get penalized when you take too long to form up a larger than normal formation. This was reviewed intensively with Joe Wilkerson in pre Matrix days - and he is a mathmetician and collector of plane data. I am an engineer, a modern naval air sailor familiar with flight operations, and I have been resident at Boeing (as a computer engineer involved with simulation computers). We have sound reasons for this decision. Trust me.

5) You have 896 squadron on THREE DIFFERENT carriers!!! Boy am I in trouble now. Can't do that.

[el cid again]

However in late 1941 The Sea Hurricane Mark 1B was introduced, this aircraft had to be deck parked as without folding wings they would not fit the aircraft lifts of Illustrious class carriers. Usually they were placed on outriggers to supplement the normal aircraft compliment.

Thus In terms of actual capacity the maximum aircraft carried by an Illustrious Class carrier and still operate aircraft was 56, Victorious landed on Indomitable's CAP after Indomitable was damaged during Operation Pedestal in August 1942.

However in terms of Air groups usually carried in the Indian ocean in 1942 Illustrious class carriers tended to carry air groups of about 45, which gives them a maximum overload capacity of 52

Thus, I would give the Illustrious class carriers a capacity of 45 at game start

Back in the days I was working for CHS, and Joe was my "supervisor" - the standard he laid down was we had to use data that could be verified from common, English language references. That standard makes your numbers unworkable. For one thing, it is clear there are three different sub classes of the Illustrious class - each with DIFFERENT size hangers - in fact hangers on different decks - and of different lengths. It simply must be wrong to rate them all the same - the space is physically significantly different. The values we use are:

Illustrious: 33
Indomitable: 45
Implacable: 60.

The good news is that our median value is the same as your recommendation. The bad news is that it is not the same for all ships - and I am quite certain this is better modeling than to pretend otherwise.
The first sub group has only one hanger deck. The middle group has a half length second deck. The third two full hanger decks.

[el cid again]

Indomitable

Enters in January 42

one squadron of Fulmar II’s 800 squadron,
one of Sea Hurricane Ib’s 880 squadron,
plus two squadrons of Albacores 827 and 831 Squadrons.
All these squadrons should have 12 aircraft except for 880 which had 9

She spent the next two months ferrying hurricanes to Java.

With NO air group on board! And THEN she went to Madagascar (off map).
I wanted to make her not appear at all - or appear with empty decks at a ferry - her real role. But this caused major squawks. And it might not work to have the air group appear later. But letting her appear WITH air group when she DID NOT use it seems wrong to me. This is a big Allied thing - they get a ship - it never leaves the theater - eventually quite a long list is involved. But I have no good and popular answer for the conundrum.

[el cid again]

NB cid the aircraft capacity for the varrious carriers should be 36 for Illustrious, Victorious, and Formidable, 45 for Indomidable, 72 for indefatigable and Implacable

Without deck parks !!!

I took the data from British Aircraft Carriers. There are often differences in published figures of this sort. I used Jane's and Conways - both British references - as controls - as well as Aircraft Carriers of the World. I regard the latter as my real base - because it rates all nations by the same standards. But for safety sake - and because I am less familiar with British than USN and IJN carriers - I used a British Carrier reference as well. In the absense of knowing why you have different data - where it is from - it is difficult to accept the careful and extended - and then reviewed - study came to the wrong conclusions. But I never close the book entirely: if you believe there is something wrong with using British sources to back up the USNI Aircraft Carriers of the World.

[CobraAus]

v2.30 is packeaged and sent to relays and those on list who are on line
time for some zzzzzzzzz

Issued because of a problem with aircraft pools for aircraft not yet in production. It results in less accuracy and control of inventories, but is needed - or you can upgrade to B-29s in 1941!

Otherwise some provision for growing Allied supplies for late war use.

And as always a few minor technical things.

RHSBBO & RPO will probably release in about 18 hours.

Cobra Aus

[el cid again]

- Amagi torpedo bombers are still on the Unryu
- 14th Army (067) has 3" gun instead of infantry squad in weapon slot 2
- 6th JAAF division (093) has empty device 408 in slot one
- IJA (925) 9cm mortar regiment has only 30 support squads but 36 mortars
- Type 13 radar has still penetration 0, intentional?
- MAD still has penetration 500, intentional?
- G8N1 (030) has in weapon slot 7 device 000 10 times
- Nippo Maru airgroups (748/749) are still on Kimikawa Maru
- 5"/54 DP gun (061) upgrades to 4"/45 naval gun (037), is this correct?
- RTN Trad (817) has wrong arrival date (after being sunk) and port (Sasebo)
- RTN Rajong (821) is already sunk before arrival
- Mino Maru (826), Eijo Maru (827), Nimi Maru (962) have wrong entry in the sunk field
- formations in slot 1122 and 1125 have identical name (52nd Nav Gsn)

As of 2.30:

1) Amagi planes were on Amagi
2) 14th Army should have infantry squad - fixed for 2.31
3) 6th JAAF division should have 75mm AA guns - and slot 408 WAS empty in RAO - but should be a twin .50 as in CVO - fixed
4) type 13 radar was wrong again - wonder how - oh well - fixed
5) Yeah - no device in slot 7 of G8
6) Nippo maru planes on board OK
7 and 8) TRUE but UNWORKABLE! These ARE the dates these ships sank! By France in a brief war with Thailand over Cambodia! But the arrival dates are ALSO right - they were refloated and repaired. [Another ship sank en route to Japan]. And the arrival port of Sasebo is right - well at least she is repaired in Japan by that date - and I deliberately have her appear after repairs there for the trip back home.
9) Dates for these ships were wrong. Only Eijo Maru needs a date - 450619 - fixed
10) Slot 1122 is right - 1125 is a former RHS slot not erased when we moved back to stock slots

Thanks - all those items not otherwise fixed are for 2.31

[el cid again]

The Sea Hurricane was upgraded to the Seafire by the end of 1942. The Seafire was itself replaced by Corsairs in early 1944 apart from the Indefatigable class carriers

In terms of strike aircraft, the progression is Swordfish, to Albacore, to Barracuda, to Avenger.

RHS FAA fighters show this progression.

RHS strike aircraft show this progression EXCEPT for Swordfish - which is NOT a strike aircraft by 1941 any more. It is a special ASW plane, with rockets, radar, etc. - and it does NOT upgrade automatically - so you don't lose its ability to do what it does.

[el cid again]

The Sea Hurricane variant used in the Far East was the Ib model
Which were armed with 8 mmgs. They featured added strengthening, naval radios and arrester gear, which added about a 1000 lbs. of weight to the aircraft (7400 lbs.) The aircraft usually carried 8 mg’s, there were also some Ic models produced with 4x20mm cannon however the added weight decreased performance further.

The sea hurricane was updated to its final incarnation the IIc in late 1942 this had a better engine and range (44 gallon drop tanks) However this model was mostly used on escort carriers in the Atlantic.

If "all great minds think alike" then perhaps yours is a great mind?
RHS selected the IB for the very reasons you recommended - and so "it is in there" - as it were.

I suggest modelling the 1B for the game, as it was the one used in 1942 by the RN in the Indian Ocean.

[el cid again]

Martlet

This was the name given to the Wildcat in RN service In 1942 the version used was the Martlet Which was basically the F4F4 with a different engine without the two stage supercharger, The Martlet remained in RN service until the Mk VI when the name was changed back to the US designation FM-2
Since we cannot Insert the Martlet in the game The easiest thing to do is to Use the F3 wildcat instead changing the upgrade path of the squadron to Corsair.

RHS has two Martlets - Martlet II/III and Wildcat/Martlet IV - so we have the same progression you recommend - and in this form, we also have the FM-2. [We have a LOT of Wildcats!]

[el cid again]

Seafire

One slot so many Seafires ….

Apart from the mark one, Seafires were differentiated by engine type with one being optimised for medium to high level performance and another type for low level performance

The Aircraft I am proposing is the L MK II / III the only substantial difference between the Marks is the introduction of folding wings in the Mk III.

I had the most trouble determining what its climb rate should be, Its initial climb rate was probably the highest in the game at 4600 ft / min from sea level to 5000 ft.

However the aircraft was optimised for low level performance so its later climbing ability was compromised so I’ve moved it down a bit.

The range of the Seafire is a bit of a pain as various attempts were used to get extra range from the Seafire. In late 1945, Both Indefatigable class carriers added (different) 90-gallon tanks to the Seafire to extend its range so it could accompany strike aircraft. Prior to that various types of external fuel tanks were used none of them very reliable.

RHS has TWO Seafire slots - and they are I/II and III/XIV. We do not use drop tanks for the reasons you gave - there was no standard and reliable fitting.

[el cid again]

Indomitable

Enters in January 42

one squadron of Fulmar II’s 800 squadron,
one of Sea Hurricane Ib’s 880 squadron,
plus two squadrons of Albacores 827 and 831 Squadrons.
All these squadrons should have 12 aircraft except for 880 which had 9

She spent the next two months ferrying hurricanes to Java.

After proposing not having her arrive until after the Madagascar ops, and running into a firestorm of Hamburg proportions,
I put her in the game on 10 Dec 41 - when RH history indicates she became available for ops at Aden

While her air group was beached, I am not sure we can do that ? I am experimenting with the air group appears later - and is in the original form.

[el cid again]

Illustrious

Arrived Indian ocean in May 42,

18 swordfish in two squadrons 829 and 810 (829’s swordfish had ASV II)
881 squadron 18 martlets

I do not show this arrival date. I will change to it - but you must give me a source I can verify - or it will change back. I can only to the original air group - in modified form. The Swordfish indeed has ASV - but NO torpedoes! She is an ASW ship by now. So the other unit has Albacores. Originally I used 18 Swordfish in just one unit - but that may be better simulation. My FAA reference does not show ANY Swordfish with torpedoes at all - anywhere in the world - at this time. So maybe they really had upgraded - or else they all were ASW planes?

[CobraAus]

the world has turned again and I need to come up to speed
if you have not got v2.30 overnight please pm me and I will send out

Cobra Aus

[el cid again]

Hermes

1849 –814 a flight, Albacore ready 6 upgrade Albacore
1850 -814 b flight, Albacore ready 6 upgrade Albacore

British Aircraft Carriers is quite enamored with Hermes, and quite difinitive. While she had higher capacities in the 1930s, by 1939 she could embark only 12 planes of the size of Swordfish. She was down to a rating of 15 in 1935, and you need to go back to 1932 to get her up to 20.
With smaller planes, of course.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Illustrious

Arrived Indian ocean in May 42,

18 swordfish in two squadrons 829 and 810 (829’s swordfish had ASV II)
881 squadron 18 martlets

I do not show this arrival date. I will change to it - but you must give me a source I can verify - or it will change back. I can only to the original air group - in modified form. The Swordfish indeed has ASV - but NO torpedoes! She is an ASW ship by now. So the other unit has Albacores. Originally I used 18 Swordfish in just one unit - but that may be better simulation. My FAA reference does not show ANY Swordfish with torpedoes at all - anywhere in the world - at this time. So maybe they really had upgraded - or else they all were ASW planes?

Not sure about this: No. 825 Squadron still used Swordfish I as torpedo bombers during Operation Cerberus in Feb/March 1942 and No. 810 Squadron still had a mixture of Swordfish I and II when in the IO (it added some Mk II to its inventory in March 1942).
4 AACU (not FAA but RAF) flew Swordfish I torpedo planes and No. 788 Squadron (a training formation) employed its Swordfish I against the Japanese during the Ceylon raid (not succesfully of course).

[el cid again]

I have a slot problem - only one kind of Swordfish! Either we upgrade the Swordfish units to another plane, or they don't have torpedoes. I did that in one case.

I also increased air group to 36 on the smallest Illustrious class. While I can support a figure of 33 in several sources, 36 is a much more practical number working with squadrons of 9, 12, 18 or 24 - in case we get to mix and match units. 33 is awful small for a true CV and there is 10% slop in the system - actually more like 12.5%.

[el cid again]

For Indefatigable I simply substituted 898 sq for 896 - solving one of the duplicated squadron issues. You don't list 898 - maybe that is a typo?
Anyway - we have the right air group - at 57 planes.

[el cid again]

Formidable and Indefatibable list 820 squadron - I can't do that!
But my references show 818 on Formidable - so that works.

[Aterpa]

Version 2.30:

- Ki 61I (55) has maximum speed of 319?

[CobraAus]

I have a slot problem - only one kind of Swordfish!

if slot 243 is carrier capible - we are using it as a title at the moment you could use to create a 2nd swordfish using same bitmap pointer

Cobra Aus