Corsair not a killer but crap??

[Andy Mac]

Thanks for the info Pauk !!!!

Re attacking cut off bases I dont like it (its the main reason I have lost so many subs recentlly in my game with pauk I dont care about rescuing PI Division the combat power is negligable)

The totally secure training bases on the other hand are a real threat so if it costs me 5 subs to close down each one I will pay the butchers bill. (Pauk and I are handling this issue in game so I am NOT complaining about it) My goal is to force the IJN to train its aircraft in China where they are at risk from P38 sweeps and burn supply in China where it is harder to get to.

I dont see any Japanese player training to more than 70+ in China where an allied P38 sqn can suddenly appear to kill all those pilots dedicated to Gd Attack (alterantively it slows down training a s a lot are acting as top cover) basically china training is ok by my book I am less enamoured of PI bases left behind as training camps but I can deal with it

Andy

[rroberson]

ORIGINAL: mlees

I would say it again. Allied players are responsible for that too. If you choose Sir Robin you are allowing Japanese massive training for half year or so. Only in that case Japan could train 10 or more groups to the 80ies. Atoledo daitai is, i believe isolated case (doubt that he trained several 90+ Daitais). If he done that, we should ask his opponent what he was doing for 7 months (pilots from his daitai have 220 missions!)

I just had a fair chuckle from this statement.

So, you have a Japanese squadron bombing an empty, bypassed Allied base (say, in the Phillippines), for 6-10 months, and they get their exp rating up into the 90's, and you say that's the Allied player's fault? (For not fighting when he, presumably, doesn't perceive a payoff in doing so?)

[:'(]

Allied: "What?!? you can't do that! That's soo gamey!"

IJA: "Wha, well.. It's your fault! You ran away for the first ten months of the game!"

Allied: (mumbles) "You left me little choice."

I think ALe could tell you I fought him everywhere. I wasn't sure what the hell he was up to at first when I saw him by passing some of my hexes. It dawned on me about 3 months (game months) what he was up to and I recall asking for advice on how to defeat on the forum somewhere. I have used that..(hit him where he aint) but sooner or later I had to fight his highly trained units....I chose the skies over kwaj and while I have suffered horrific loses there...I will happily exchange one or two of my 70s trained pilots for his 99s .

[BLUESBOB]

Another absolutely unrealistic result.

Big B has been working on redoing air combat for a future game we're going to play. Air combat like this in his reworking probably would have seen twice the number of Zeros & Tojos lost, and half the number of Corsairs & Dauntless's. A much more realistic combat result.

[pauk]

Hi to all, it seems that i'm only Jap willing to stop this Allied invasion... so let it be and please forgive me because i do not know if i have a spare time and strength for that (also my english sucks and i'm not sure if i can respond you propertly but i'm assure you that i know exacty what i'm thinking - on croatian of course[:D)]

1.

Pauk, all I am saying is that players (both sides) should not be able to train entire units to be 99s.
There should be realistic limits within the game - for realisms sake.

I agree - please, let we have realistic/historic limits for both sides. I'm really tired provides you examples for Allies (lots of players who prefers Japanesse side simply gave up because it is obviuos that Allied players want historical limits when they like it) but i will give you several examples (again).

#1. how the hell Allies can use 100+ B17 in the January 1942 in DEI?
#2. How the hell Allies can respawn Philippines divisions and US units which were in Philippines at the start of the war?
#3. British fleet in PACIFIC?

(NOTE: personally i have no problem with that, because i do know that is the GAME, and my opponents are nice people whose understand that this is a game. If we encounter problems we discuss about them and agree on new house rules)

ORIGINAL: Big B
If you think experience dosen't matter - or dosen't matter enough([&:]), then you must love the game as is - good for you.

YOU are right again - i do like this game. Not that i'm 100% percent satisfied with that but i do know this is a best game ever. And i do know that it is impossible to make program/game which would be resistent to human exploits.

ORIGINAL: Big B
I propose putting three unoccupied Japanese bases cut off deep in Allied teritory - One in India, One in the USA, and one in Australia. The Allied player can cheaply train up his units free of cost too - hows that?

This is a humor, right? Do what you want - if you don't feels that your 60 exp Corsair crew cant deal with IJA/IJN AF ok... great. Find an opponent and run into 4H - four holes (India, Australia, Pearl, Noumea) and wait for your toys in 43.

I have nothing against that, but i'm playing for the fun not for the victory or AV (although i admit i wont resist if my opponents admit that i'm winner[:D]). So if you run into 4H for half of the year and spend about 2 minutes for the turn (open the turn, check your CVs, save) waiting for 43 then you shouldn't complain about ONE ISOLATED example in NIck mod....

ORIGINAL: Big B

If experience should be a 'Japanese Only' advantage because 'the allies get B-17s and Corsairs and it just ain't fair' I'm not sure I understand you.

No, you don't undrestand me.... or you are prettending not understand me. You willingly didnt respond to my post where i've proposed re-considering of whole air combat system because YOU like it. You like 100+ B17 on strike, you like 1 vp for B-17 and 1 vp for Nate and it is, from your stand, perfectly done.....

How many times i have to say - NO to limited changes/ YES to complete changes in air combat...

If it is something wrong, then let fix all things, not the only one.....

Never said what you've tried to put in my mouth - i do know that Corsair should rules the skies - but i'm against current engine (hundreds od B17 fly dy by day, destroying fighting ability of whole divisions in 3-5 days no matter if they have enough support - i especially like "warp" repair rate . if you don't believe me go to General Hoeppners AAR and you will know what i'm talking about). I will answer you with counter-question, why do you think lots of japanese players simply dissapear from the games and forum?

Could it be because above mentioned reasons, could it be because no matter how skilled player is he CAN NOT holds till 1945? Could it be because one isolate example from Nik's mod raised a monster thread?

regards....

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: mlees
I just had a fair chuckle from this statement.

So, you have a Japanese squadron bombing an empty, bypassed Allied base (say, in the Phillippines), for 6-10 months, and they get their exp rating up into the 90's, and you say that's the Allied player's fault? (For not fighting when he, presumably, doesn't perceive a payoff in doing so?)

[:'(]

Allied: "What?!? you can't do that! That's soo gamey!"

IJA: "Wha, well.. It's your fault! You ran away for the first ten months of the game!"

Allied: (mumbles) "You left me little choice."

Yes, and i would repeat it again (because it seems that quite a lot people didn't read my earlier post from alpha to omega).

ORIGINAL: pauk

I would say it again. Allied players are responsible for that too. If you choose Sir Robin you are allowing Japanese massive training for half year or so. Only in that case Japan could train 10 or more groups to the 80ies. Atoledo daitai is, i believe isolated case (doubt that he trained several 90+ Daitais). If he done that, we should ask his opponent what he was doing for 7 months (pilots from his daitai have 220 missions!)

I'm not guilty because "regular" training lasts forever (how long it takes to get pilot from 30 to 59? six months?, how many supply are eaten?)

It is a game right? or it is historical simulation? What would American public opinion/politician do for not fighting in the war about a year? Would morale of American/British soldiers would be still high? (i guess you were in Army so you know that the worst thing for soldiers is sitting and doing nothing...)

I do not know - i'm not a witch, but can you please enlighten me? Personally i very dislike what if talks in history... Back to the track.. you' ve said in your post game - so why they are complain about that?

Just because that someone doesn't like that Sir Robin defence allowing Japanese to be better prepared for allied counterstrike?

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Thanks for the info Pauk !!!!

You are welcomed[:(]. My aces are mostly killed, that is truth...but lots of brave young Samurais waiting for revenge[:D]

quote]ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Re attacking cut off bases I dont like it (its the main reason I have lost so many subs recentlly in my game with pauk I dont care about rescuing PI Division the combat power is negligable) [/quote]

Fair enough. But i'm sure that you understand i have nothing to do with my fighters squadrons to do at the moment? (joke)

(Pauk and I are handling this issue in game so I am NOT complaining about it)

I think that we are handling most of issues in the games and i do really enjoy in game. Undertood, Andy.

BTW, Andy, where is my turn[;)]?

[pauk]

oh, i forgot favourite allied feature in the game.... air balance.... with "red cross" over the base Allied player get perfect intel about enemy air force at the moment since he doing his turn after Japanese....[:D][:D][:D]

hey guys, i did post this several times about it.... but never got any support from historical/realistic limits guys Party, right?

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: pauk

oh, i forgot favourite allied feature in the game.... air balance.... with "red cross" over the base Allied player get perfect intel about enemy air force at the moment since he doing his turn after Japanese....[:D][:D][:D]

hey guys, i did post this several times about it.... but never got any support from historical/realistic limits guys Party, right?

Actually, someone did post a solution to that. Just change the artwork for airfields and ports to all be the same. They even gave a link to the appropriate replacements.

[Big B]

Ok Pauk, fine.

I'm not going to engage you in a silly name calling contest.

If you can't tell the difference, after all this time, between peoples efforts to create a simulation that acts like reality - and a game where all you want is some version of "play balance" and "goodies for my side" ...I'm not the one whos going to waste any more time trying to get you see we have been talking apples and oranges.

Good luck in your PBEMs

B

ORIGINAL: pauk


Hi to all, it seems that i'm only Jap willing to stop this Allied invasion... so let it be and please forgive me because i do not know if i have a spare time and strength for that (also my english sucks and i'm not sure if i can respond you propertly but i'm assure you that i know exacty what i'm thinking - on croatian of course[:D)]

1.

Pauk, all I am saying is that players (both sides) should not be able to train entire units to be 99s.
There should be realistic limits within the game - for realisms sake.

I agree - please, let we have realistic/historic limits for both sides. I'm really tired provides you examples for Allies (lots of players who prefers Japanesse side simply gave up because it is obviuos that Allied players want historical limits when they like it) but i will give you several examples (again).

#1. how the hell Allies can use 100+ B17 in the January 1942 in DEI?
#2. How the hell Allies can respawn Philippines divisions and US units which were in Philippines at the start of the war?
#3. British fleet in PACIFIC?

(NOTE: personally i have no problem with that, because i do know that is the GAME, and my opponents are nice people whose understand that this is a game. If we encounter problems we discuss about them and agree on new house rules)

ORIGINAL: Big B
If you think experience dosen't matter - or dosen't matter enough([&:]), then you must love the game as is - good for you.

YOU are right again - i do like this game. Not that i'm 100% percent satisfied with that but i do know this is a best game ever. And i do know that it is impossible to make program/game which would be resistent to human exploits.

ORIGINAL: Big B
I propose putting three unoccupied Japanese bases cut off deep in Allied teritory - One in India, One in the USA, and one in Australia. The Allied player can cheaply train up his units free of cost too - hows that?

This is a humor, right? Do what you want - if you don't feels that your 60 exp Corsair crew cant deal with IJA/IJN AF ok... great. Find an opponent and run into 4H - four holes (India, Australia, Pearl, Noumea) and wait for your toys in 43.

I have nothing against that, but i'm playing for the fun not for the victory or AV (although i admit i wont resist if my opponents admit that i'm winner[:D]). So if you run into 4H for half of the year and spend about 2 minutes for the turn (open the turn, check your CVs, save) waiting for 43 then you shouldn't complain about ONE ISOLATED example in NIck mod....

ORIGINAL: Big B

If experience should be a 'Japanese Only' advantage because 'the allies get B-17s and Corsairs and it just ain't fair' I'm not sure I understand you.

No, you don't undrestand me.... or you are prettending not understand me. You willingly didnt respond to my post where i've proposed re-considering of whole air combat system because YOU like it. You like 100+ B17 on strike, you like 1 vp for B-17 and 1 vp for Nate and it is, from your stand, perfectly done.....

How many times i have to say - NO to limited changes/ YES to complete changes in air combat...

If it is something wrong, then let fix all things, not the only one.....

Never said what you've tried to put in my mouth - i do know that Corsair should rules the skies - but i'm against current engine (hundreds od B17 fly dy by day, destroying fighting ability of whole divisions in 3-5 days no matter if they have enough support - i especially like "warp" repair rate . if you don't believe me go to General Hoeppners AAR and you will know what i'm talking about). I will answer you with counter-question, why do you think lots of japanese players simply dissapear from the games and forum?

Could it be because above mentioned reasons, could it be because no matter how skilled player is he CAN NOT holds till 1945? Could it be because one isolate example from Nik's mod raised a monster thread?

regards....

[pauk]

I'm sorry, but i do not recall that you ever raise the voice about things i mentioned above . I could be wrong, but i admit that.

Why do i feel i'm talking to wall? You said "and a game where all you want is some version of "play balance" and "goodies for my side" ...I'm not the one whos going to waste any more time trying to get you see we have been talking apples and oranges.", but from that i can only understand that you are interested in "specific" issues (regarding other side) and not for air combat in general (as i'm interested).

For you it may be mixing apples and oranges, but for me it is NO for simplistic and reduced changes in air combat. I've said several times "you might be right", but you didn't even bother to reply and say your oppinion on what i've posted and mentioned as issues (accidently or not, this are "Allied issues").

I'm sorry if you misunderstood me ("I'm not going to engage you in a silly name calling contest.") but i didn't have intention of silly name calling contest.

then, you stated you are person who wants " simulation that acts like reality -", but i don't see that you are interested in "Allied issues". Ok, i may be wrong again, but didn't found any feedback about my thoughts.

Thanks for good wishes for my PBEMs, i'm think i'm going to need that because i will lost games before 1945. Although i'm using ground training missions.....

[Big B]

I have repeatedly said (though not in this thread) that "among the things that are messed up are TOO MANY B-17s TOO EARLY." I concede that.
You have probably missed over the last many threads.

All I have been saying is let's get this turkey looking and acting as realistically as it can be made - which can be pretty darn realistic I have found.
WitP is a good worth while game...it can just use a little help getting the most out of it.


B

ORIGINAL: pauk

I'm sorry, but i do not recall that you ever raise the voice about things i mentioned above . I could be wrong, but i admit that.

Why do i feel i'm talking to wall? You said "and a game where all you want is some version of "play balance" and "goodies for my side" ...I'm not the one whos going to waste any more time trying to get you see we have been talking apples and oranges.", but from that i can only understand that you are interested in "specific" issues (regarding other side) and not for air combat in general (as i'm interested).

For you it may be mixing apples and oranges, but for me it is NO for simplistic and reduced changes in air combat. I've said several times "you might be right", but you didn't even bother to reply and say your oppinion on what i've posted and mentioned as issues (accidently or not, this are "Allied issues").

I'm sorry if you misunderstood me ("I'm not going to engage you in a silly name calling contest.") but i didn't have intention of silly name calling contest.

then, you stated you are person who wants " simulation that acts like reality -", but i don't see that you are interested in "Allied issues". Ok, i may be wrong again, but didn't found any feedback about my thoughts.

Thanks for good wishes for my PBEMs, i'm think i'm going to need that because i will lost games before 1945. Although i'm using ground training missions.....

[rroberson]

Forgive my stupidty. What exactly is the sir robin defense I keep hearing about?

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: rroberson

Forgive my stupidty. What exactly is the sir robin defense I keep hearing about?

In short, "Run Away! Run Away!!" Basically, as the Allies, retreating as fast as possible to try to save as many units as possible.

The name Sir Robin Defense comes from the character Sir Robin from the movie, "Monty Python and the Holy Grail". The character is a cowardly English knight of the Round Table, part of the quest for the Holy Grail. He is followed around by a group of minstrels who happily sing about how "Brave Sir Robin, he ran away".

When the minstrels were eaten during a particularly rough winter, there was much rejoicing.

[Nemo121]

To be honest this whole fight is the biggest pile of BS on these forums. This all boils down to different folks having b*tch-fights over exactly which unrealistic work-around to an addressable real-world problem least offends their sensitive sensibilities.


As with most of these things rather than fighting over exactly who should be allowed to bomb whom and where and when and how quickly people should run away why not actually stop tearing eachother's hair out over exactly which unrealistic in-game solution people choose and unite to ask for a new approach to pilot training which would be more realistic AND was historically possible? Satisfying the twin goals of a more realistic game and YET an improvement in GAME play at the same time.


Just have a situation where players have an element of control over their own pilot training programmes. Realistically there was NOTHING stopping the Japanese from creating a quality mass-training programme except the fact that they had not yet adequately made the doctrinal leap to realising that their next wars would be wars of mass and not of elites. Since, as supreme commanders, one of the areas we have control over IS doctrine undertaking major change to the pilot training programme is will within our remit ( assuming internal consistency in the game design).

So, simply give both players the pilot training programmes which were present on December 7th 1941 BUT let each player control the length of training, amount of flight time ( can be abstracted by allocating a certain amount of supplies/aviation fuel to the training programme), number of instructors and instructor to trainee ratio and then if the Japanese player wants to be churning out 1,000 pilots a month by the end of 1942 he can easily do so ( assuming he has the supplies and planning to create the infrastructure necessary).

This way you could remove the tedious business of pilot training from the map, remove the stimulus for keeping "trapped" units alive behind your lines for training purposes AND allow players to concentrate on the strategic-level decisions ( how many planes and of what types do I want, o I have the fuel and pilots for them? etc etc) which are the hallmark of this game.


Fighting about the exact details of all of the highly unrealistic work-arounds is silly IMO. Agitate for a more realistic training system which is responsive to player input and emphasis and all of these problems will go away and the game will become more realistic to boot. Wasting your energy fighting eachother instead of coming together in support of a single, reality- based solution is highly inefficient and, worst of all, ineffective.

[aletoledo]

ORIGINAL: pauk

ORIGINAL: Big B

Hi Pauk,
Yes, you are darn right it will have an effect on the game if sduadron experience (not select individuals) is llimited. But the effect will be a better game in terms of realism.

You might be right - and i'm not against testing (beta) but i do want BIG changes in whole air combat system.

ORIGINAL: Big B
You have to admit it is absolutely cheesey and gamey for players to train up entire groups to 90 and above level.

I would say it again. Allied players are responsible for that too. If you choose Sir Robin you are allowing Japanese massive training for half year or so. Only in that case Japan could train 10 or more groups to the 80ies. Atoledo daitai is, i believe isolated case (doubt that he trained several 90+ Daitais). If he done that, we should ask his opponent what he was doing for 7 months (pilots from his daitai have 220 missions!)

I'm not guilty because "regular" training lasts forever (how long it takes to get pilot from 30 to 59? six months?, how many supply are eaten?)

I'm surprised I'm the only japanese player who appears to have ever trained his pilots up this high in this manner (or any manner I suppose). I do have plenty of datais trained up and I think I prefer fighting with highly trained ones, rather than have a 'realistic' fight and come out losing every air battle.

as rob said, I suppose there wasn't a lot he could do. I did the central pacific strategy and he didn't want to oppose my betties until he had more carriers for cover (the brave sir robin strategy). he did ask for advice in the forum and everyone said hold back until 1943 (which seems to be the standard advice) and also to hit me where I wasn't. well he hit me where I wasn't during all of 1942 and caused a lot of transport loses until I shifted forces to cover. however in the mean time, my forces on noumea and pago pago had absolutely nothing to do during this period of time, because that was where i was strong. they trained and trained. now its 1943 and he's attacking head on (quite successfully), but now I get to actually use my forces head to head.

it might be far from realistic, but as the supreme commander of the japanese forces, I'm not going to throw untrained pilots at him. I don't overstack bases and I don't exceed the aviation support available and I don't let them fly with more than 15 fatigue (usually less than 10). I really treat my pilots as the prime asset of the entire game. I think japan did treat its pilots special, particlarly the carrier ones, so I don't think training my pilots over the past year to a high degree is completely out of the question.

maybe the 90's is a bit high, but if the americans are scrambling to put anyone they can into a cockpit and I'll honing my veterans, I think I deserve some advantage from experience. rob says that his pilots are in the 70s, which I think is almost where they roll of the assembly line at, therefore I think my veterans deserve to all be 80+ (10 points above his) by virtue of his are green and mine are veterans. if he wants 80+ pilots too, then he can tell his government to stop stripping them away as instructors.

[Nemo121]

How come so many of your units are so under-strength?

Are you keeping experience high at the expense of refusing green replacements?

[aletoledo]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

How come so many of your units are so under-strength?

Are you keeping experience high at the expense of refusing green replacements?

yes to a certain degree. the 50th fighter sentai is being disassembled to keep the other units at full strength. the Kanoya betty daitai is being moved to battle and that is only a straggler.

most of the other units are at full strength. a lot of the ones I think you're seeing are the naval units, which have reorganized into odd sizes. a few have been bombed on the ground and I'm afraid of filling them up from the pool because they come in at 30exp now in 1943.

[rroberson]

ORIGINAL: aletoledo





I'm surprised I'm the only japanese player who appears to have ever trained his pilots up this high in this manner (or any manner I suppose). I do have plenty of datais trained up and I think I prefer fighting with highly trained ones, rather than have a 'realistic' fight and come out losing every air battle.

as rob said, I suppose there wasn't a lot he could do. I did the central pacific strategy and he didn't want to oppose my betties until he had more carriers for cover (the brave sir robin strategy). he did ask for advice in the forum and everyone said hold back until 1943 (which seems to be the standard advice) and also to hit me where I wasn't. well he hit me where I wasn't during all of 1942 and caused a lot of transport loses until I shifted forces to cover. however in the mean time, my forces on noumea and pago pago had absolutely nothing to do during this period of time, because that was where i was strong. they trained and trained. now its 1943 and he's attacking head on (quite successfully), but now I get to actually use my forces head to head.

it might be far from realistic, but as the supreme commander of the japanese forces, I'm not going to throw untrained pilots at him. I don't overstack bases and I don't exceed the aviation support available and I don't let them fly with more than 15 fatigue (usually less than 10). I really treat my pilots as the prime asset of the entire game. I think japan did treat its pilots special, particlarly the carrier ones, so I don't think training my pilots over the past year to a high degree is completely out of the question.

maybe the 90's is a bit high, but if the americans are scrambling to put anyone they can into a cockpit and I'll honing my veterans, I think I deserve some advantage from experience. rob says that his pilots are in the 70s, which I think is almost where they roll of the assembly line at, therefore I think my veterans deserve to all be 80+ (10 points above his) by virtue of his are green and mine are veterans. if he wants 80+ pilots too, then he can tell his government to stop stripping them away as instructors.

Im so screwed in our game. [:D]. I hadn't realized you had that many squadrons sitting at 90. In Burma I have been sending out fighter squadrons in the 50s (thats what london is sending me) trying to contest the skies there. I think I have begun to see the same things over the central pacific as the Americans struggle to keep up with losses over kwaj.

Yet you say Im succeeding?

[aletoledo]

you have gained a lot of land in exchange for a lot of blood. its just a matter of time really.

with america putting out pilots in the 70s, how can I keep up even with a 2:1 ratio?

[rroberson]

Well here is where my forces are training wise.

methinks IM in big trouble.