Humble request for Don and Joe regarding AA WitP programming...

[bradfordkay]

Joe, by "small calibre" I was referring to the 25-40mm AA, not the lighter machine guns. Were those also ineffectual above 6000 feet?

EDIT: it appears by your comment about the German 50mm guns are attesting to the fact that the 25mm were not effective at higher altitude.

People have pointed out that some are missing from the AA units, but I wonder if they were also missing from the table of organization in real life as well. Many units served in the theatre without it's full allocation of equipment. This is not to say that I don't believe that they should get them, I am wondering if they were left out for a reason (such as not available to those units even though they were authorized).

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Joe, by "small calibre" I was referring to the 25-40mm AA, not the lighter machine guns. Were those also ineffectual above 6000 feet?

Ah, ok, in general I would use "small calibre" to refer more to the sub-20mm AA heavy machine guns and then the terms light AA, medium AA and heavy AA to refer to the "AA guns".

First, the Japanese landbased 40mm AA gun does not show in most sources and one in which it does show indicates that the inscription on an example captured by the Allies reads "Vickers-Armgtrongs 1931" and this source thus guesses that the weapon may have first been captured by the Japanese (perhaps from the British). So we should probably discount the 40mm weapon in general landbased Japanese service until someone can so up with production informtion, if any exists.

As to the 25mm weapon this, of course, was a naval weapon, designed and built for use at sea. There is evidence however, that "later in the war" some of these weapons were used ashore. And BTW I am assuming we are talking about landbased flak in this thread. The seabased flak uses completely different code etc. So again, I am assuming we are talking about strickly land based flak here. The range of the Japanese 25mm weapon is given as being just short of that of the German 37mm weapon (flak18/36) ... for those light/medium guns that I do have maximum and "effective" air engagement ranges, the effective range is usually given as 40% of the maximum. Also note that most light and medium guns, in either Japanese or German service fired not under director control. But all this boils down to an effective verticle range for the 25mm of 5,600 feet. Of course, how many 25mm weapons should be introduced to the naval base forces in the game and on what date ? Those questions would require more looking.

EDIT: it appears by your comment about the German 50mm guns are attesting to the fact that the 25mm were not effective at higher altitude.

The German 50mm flak41 had an effective verticle range of 18,374 feet versus the 37mm flak18/36 effective verticle range of 6,562, so a considerable "extention" into the ranges covered by the "heavy" flak weapons.

People have pointed out that some are missing from the AA units, but I wonder if they were also missing from the table of organization in real life as well. Many units served in the theatre without it's full allocation of equipment. This is not to say that I don't believe that they should get them, I am wondering if they were left out for a reason (such as not available to those units even though they were authorized).

If the Japanese spent a lot of time updating their printed TO&E's during the war, I haven't seen much evidence of it, especially for naval "support" units like flak and shipping companies. The triple digit IJN baseforces we have in the game, seem to be an amalgamation of real world units which include independent naval flak companies (of which there were a total of about 200 in existence during the full war), naval guard/defense forces (of which there were about 120 - though in the game we seem to get them twice, both in the 3-digit base forces and separately) and shipping units, which included shore based warehousing units, port based loading and unloading units (including lightering as well as crane operation) and port construction units. Apparently the designers decided to make our lives a little bit simplier by amalgamating these various units into the 3-digit naval base forces. This area could probably use a fresh look and maybe one of the modder communities will do so. But within the current stock OB, the place to add in any 25mm guns that you'd like to add, would be in the named baseforces or in the 3-digit baseforces as the naval flak units appear to be already combined into those units.

[juliet7bravo]

xxx

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: juliet7bravo

Joe...

"So we should probably discount the 40mm weapon in general landbased Japanese service until someone can so up with production informtion, if any exists."

These were Vickers Pom-Pom type guns bought in the interwar years for IJN use and later replaced shipboard by 25mm mounts. They were then fairly widely used as AA/AT guns on Pacific bases, with examples still existing today. 500+ used. Can find pics if you really need to be convinced.

I have pics just not production data (nor acquisition data) though I do have data showing 1925 Vickers mounts on some IJN cruisers.

The 25mm was an extremely common weapon ashore and was used in land mounts right from the start. You'll still stumble over them all over the pacific.

Representative examples from USSBS interrogations;

MILLE
Q. How many and what kind of AA guns did you have on MILLE?
A. 8x12.7 cm AA guns, about 12-25 MM machine guns, about 12x20 mm, about 30x13 mm, and more than 100x7.7 machine guns.

Munda
Q. How many anti-aircraft guns did you have there?
A. 18x75mm, 50x25mm, 20x40mm, single and twin mounts. A large number of the machine guns which gave better results against dive-bombers.

Quote from Munda doesn't seem to peg these weapons having been their pre-war, he this spelled MILLE or is this MILI or are they the same place ?

The IJA AA units in-game are shorted all their 20mm AA guns, part of their 13mm MGs, and all their "small caliber" AAMGs. I don't know about the other IJA units, but suspect they're missing organic weapons as well. Note that most of these units were over-strength in light/small caliber AA guns later on. These are TO&E units and should not be confused with the Base Forces. Some additional IJA AA unit types should be added into the OOB like the Independent AA units.

"The triple digit IJN baseforces we have in the game, seem to be an amalgamation of real world units which include independent naval flak companies (of which there were a total of about 200 in existence during the full war), naval guard/defense forces (of which there were about 120 - though in the game we seem to get them twice, both in the 3-digit base forces and separately) and shipping units, which included shore based warehousing units, port based loading and unloading units (including lightering as well as crane operation) and port construction units."

The Base Forces are a mess, and could be done MUCH better. IRL were a hodge-podge of IJA and IJN units/detachments so no actual TO&E. These Base Forces should NOT be mixed arbitrarily with IJA/IJN line combat units or the second line guard/defense forces. Could also be commanded by either the IJA/IJN depending on circumstances and location. One thing that should be done is the construction/labor units and aviation support units are taken out and listed separate...this would make the Japanese players life easier and more historically flexible. Alot of these small "base Forces" were actually just guard/defense forces with some junior officer in charge. Maybe with some limited aviation support to service AC transiting through.

"But within the current stock OB, the place to add in any 25mm guns that you'd like to add, would be in the named baseforces or in the 3-digit baseforces as the naval flak units appear to be already combined into those units."

The AA set up at Japanese bases was generally FUBAR. Almost all these bits and pieces of units had some organic light AA capabilitity that should be included. This also effects their CD capabilities too BTW. But dedicated AA units or detachments. should be separated out.

In general, it appears the Japanese are getting shorted alot of light/small caliber AA capability...given that when supplied with ammo their light AA was reasonably effective at deterring low-level attack (60% of US AC losses to flak) I think this could be significant.

"could probably use a fresh look and maybe one of the modder communities"

I'd be willing to work on the Japanese OOB's and infantry weapons, or at least parts of it, if it was going to be used. BUT...you guys would have to decide where you wanted to go code-wise with it, as that would determine how to break the units apart and structure them.

Let's take this last aspect offline.

[juliet7bravo]

xxx