Detailed Battle Suggestions

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Southern Hunter
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Detailed Battle Suggestions

Post by Southern Hunter »

Just some random thoughts on detailed battles, and how to make them better:

- At the moment, infantry seem to form a hurried square very easily. I think it should depend on exactly how far the cavalry have come from? That is, if you see cavalry charging at you from miles and miles away, then it is fair enough to form a square in response. If you see cavalry forming a line in front of you only a few hundred meters away, and don't deliberately form square, you are really asking for it? Perhaps the chance of forming square could be reduced by the remaining move points of the charging cavalry unit (multiplied by some factor)? This would mean that if they have charged from a long way off, there would be a good chance of forming square, but if they have charged from close (because you let them, or they were hidden) then the chance of forming square is much less.

A quote about Eylau (my emphasis):

Around 1130, the Reserve Cavalry along with the cavalry of the Imperial Guard began forming up behind the shattered center. 2,500 yards ahead lay the Russian infantry, formed in three lines and Sacken's grand battery of 60-70 guns. The 10,700 men of the Reserve Cavalry and the Guard Cavalry stepped off into the driving snow. The first targets of this thundering mass were the huge columns of Russian infantry marching on Eylau. By all accounts, they were murdered by the French Heavy Horse. As Captain Parquin of the Imperial Guard eloquently relates, "the brave phalanx of infantry was soon leveled to the earth like a wheat-field swept by a hurricane." [14] The Reserve Cavalry swept on, into the flank of some Russian cavalry that had been supporting the infantry attack: "they were charged in the flank by fresh lines of cuirassiers, and cut to pieces." [15] Having disposed of the forward Russian elements, the horsemen drove on towards the main Russian lines. Murat and his troopers exacted a good deal of revenge on the Russian batteries that had bloodied Augereau, "overrunning and disabling much of the lethal Russian artillery as they went." [16] And they swept on. Next the cavalry hit Sacken's lines of infantry. As Marbot describes, "the terrible weight of this mass broke the Russian centre, upon which it charged with the sabre, and threw it into complete disorder." [17] Because of the poor visibility, many Russian regiments were ridden down before they could form square; however, "in other cases, squares were broken up." [18] The charge broke both Russian lines reaching the Russian reserve. The Guard cavalry under Marshal Bessieres was following Murat and in turn broke this line. The true mettle of the French cavalry was now shown as the Russians courageously reformed ranks behind them. Exhausted after having charged a distance of 2,500 yards, the French formed a single column and charged back the way they came, through the Russian infantry and the artillery batteries to reform behind the center; 1,500 horsemen did not return. [19] Colonel Lepic, who was mentioned earlier, found himself and a small group of Mounted Grenadiers surrounded by Russians who called for their surrender. "Look at these faces," he demanded, "and see if they mean anything like surrender!" With that he and his men cut their way to freedom. [20]

What was the effect of this charge? It proved to be the seminal action of the day. While Davout and Ney arrived later in the day to stabilize Napoleon's front, it was Murat's gallant charge that destroyed Russian attempts to break the nonexistent French center. The Russian attacking columns ceased to exist and the Russian second line and reserves were thrown into a confusion that Bennigsen was never able to really sort out. Moreover, it shook the Russian commander's already shaky confidence. Our Russian observer, Davidov astutely noted that "the propitious moment which promised such advantage to our arms disappeared." [21] As Petre notes, "the moral effect of this cavalry incursion into his very centre was, probably, great on Bennigsen." [22] Thus, at the moment when Napoleon was most vulnerable to a disastrous defeat, Bennigsen failed to act, allowing the French to be reinforced by both Ney and Davout's corps and very nearly decisively defeat the Russian army.

- Cavalry, and to a lesser extent infantry, seem to use column way too much, and probably because it doesn't seem necessary to form line to charge people at great effect. I am constantly noticing the AI charging the cavalry around in columns, and it hardly ever forms line, since it is much slower and so on. However, there seem to be insufficient penalties for operating in column. This doesn't accord with my sense of what should be happening :P

Maybe their hitting power needs to be further reduced when in column, and certainly their chance to break lines / squares etc?

If the use of columns (attack columns presumably) IS the way the game is meant to be played, is there any point / use in forming line?

- Redoubts / Fascines etc. It would be fun to have Artillery units dug in if they are defending with a good 'walls' statistic, or something like that.

- Feedback on battle results. It would be very helpful sometimes to see a textual or other feedback on why things are happening. I shoot at the enemy and cause 5 casualties (not the 100 I was expecting), it would be nice to get feedback 'Tired Troops, Long Range, Poor Weather' or something like that, showing the basic factors that influenced the result.

Still having lots of fun with it. Cheers,

Hunter
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ericbabe
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RE: Detailed Battle Suggestions

Post by ericbabe »

Thanks for the feedback. These are good ideas.

What would be your prefered way of receiving feedback in detailed combat? One idea I had was a sort of "events report" for detailed combat. Every attack would show up as a separate entry, with the effects of each modifier specified. At any time you could pop open the report and review the last 100 or so attacks.

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Southern Hunter
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RE: Detailed Battle Suggestions

Post by Southern Hunter »

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

Thanks for the feedback. These are good ideas.

What would be your prefered way of receiving feedback in detailed combat? One idea I had was a sort of "events report" for detailed combat. Every attack would show up as a separate entry, with the effects of each modifier specified. At any time you could pop open the report and review the last 100 or so attacks.


Sounds a little klunky but probably would work well. I would not use it all the time, but only when I see a result that I dont understand (kinda often when first playing the game). A little bit of nice formatting of the report would do wonders to make sure it is in a consistent appearance with all factors listed.

Good to know that you are considering making more improvements (to an already excellent system).

Cheers,

Hunter
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ericbabe
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RE: Detailed Battle Suggestions

Post by ericbabe »

It would be a bit klunky, but I wouldn't want to slow down the game by having it popup after an attack, nor would I want to fill the screen with a bunch of numbers with every attack. I would consider such a thing to be sort of an advanced feature for people who want to peek under the hood, so to speak.
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cambronne
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RE: Detailed Battle Suggestions

Post by cambronne »

ORIGINAL: The Hunter

Just some random thoughts on detailed battles, and how to make them better:

- At the moment, infantry seem to form a hurried square very easily. I think it should depend on exactly how far the cavalry have come from? That is, if you see cavalry charging at you from miles and miles away, then it is fair enough to form a square in response. If you see cavalry forming a line in front of you only a few hundred meters away, and don't deliberately form square, you are really asking for it? Perhaps the chance of forming square could be reduced by the remaining move points of the charging cavalry unit (multiplied by some factor)? This would mean that if they have charged from a long way off, there would be a good chance of forming square, but if they have charged from close (because you let them, or they were hidden) then the chance of forming square is much less.

A quote about Eylau (my emphasis):

Around 1130, the Reserve Cavalry along with the cavalry of the Imperial Guard began forming up behind the shattered center. 2,500 yards ahead lay the Russian infantry, formed in three lines and Sacken's grand battery of 60-70 guns. The 10,700 men of the Reserve Cavalry and the Guard Cavalry stepped off into the driving snow. The first targets of this thundering mass were the huge columns of Russian infantry marching on Eylau. By all accounts, they were murdered by the French Heavy Horse. As Captain Parquin of the Imperial Guard eloquently relates, "the brave phalanx of infantry was soon leveled to the earth like a wheat-field swept by a hurricane." [14] The Reserve Cavalry swept on, into the flank of some Russian cavalry that had been supporting the infantry attack: "they were charged in the flank by fresh lines of cuirassiers, and cut to pieces." [15] Having disposed of the forward Russian elements, the horsemen drove on towards the main Russian lines. Murat and his troopers exacted a good deal of revenge on the Russian batteries that had bloodied Augereau, "overrunning and disabling much of the lethal Russian artillery as they went." [16] And they swept on. Next the cavalry hit Sacken's lines of infantry. As Marbot describes, "the terrible weight of this mass broke the Russian centre, upon which it charged with the sabre, and threw it into complete disorder." [17] Because of the poor visibility, many Russian regiments were ridden down before they could form square; however, "in other cases, squares were broken up." [18] The charge broke both Russian lines reaching the Russian reserve. The Guard cavalry under Marshal Bessieres was following Murat and in turn broke this line. The true mettle of the French cavalry was now shown as the Russians courageously reformed ranks behind them. Exhausted after having charged a distance of 2,500 yards, the French formed a single column and charged back the way they came, through the Russian infantry and the artillery batteries to reform behind the center; 1,500 horsemen did not return. [19] Colonel Lepic, who was mentioned earlier, found himself and a small group of Mounted Grenadiers surrounded by Russians who called for their surrender. "Look at these faces," he demanded, "and see if they mean anything like surrender!" With that he and his men cut their way to freedom. [20]

What was the effect of this charge? It proved to be the seminal action of the day. While Davout and Ney arrived later in the day to stabilize Napoleon's front, it was Murat's gallant charge that destroyed Russian attempts to break the nonexistent French center. The Russian attacking columns ceased to exist and the Russian second line and reserves were thrown into a confusion that Bennigsen was never able to really sort out. Moreover, it shook the Russian commander's already shaky confidence. Our Russian observer, Davidov astutely noted that "the propitious moment which promised such advantage to our arms disappeared." [21] As Petre notes, "the moral effect of this cavalry incursion into his very centre was, probably, great on Bennigsen." [22] Thus, at the moment when Napoleon was most vulnerable to a disastrous defeat, Bennigsen failed to act, allowing the French to be reinforced by both Ney and Davout's corps and very nearly decisively defeat the Russian army.

- Cavalry, and to a lesser extent infantry, seem to use column way too much, and probably because it doesn't seem necessary to form line to charge people at great effect. I am constantly noticing the AI charging the cavalry around in columns, and it hardly ever forms line, since it is much slower and so on. However, there seem to be insufficient penalties for operating in column. This doesn't accord with my sense of what should be happening :P

Maybe their hitting power needs to be further reduced when in column, and certainly their chance to break lines / squares etc?

If the use of columns (attack columns presumably) IS the way the game is meant to be played, is there any point / use in forming line?

- Redoubts / Fascines etc. It would be fun to have Artillery units dug in if they are defending with a good 'walls' statistic, or something like that.

- Feedback on battle results. It would be very helpful sometimes to see a textual or other feedback on why things are happening. I shoot at the enemy and cause 5 casualties (not the 100 I was expecting), it would be nice to get feedback 'Tired Troops, Long Range, Poor Weather' or something like that, showing the basic factors that influenced the result.

Still having lots of fun with it. Cheers,

Hunter

Hunter,
May I ask for the name of the book this is from?
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Southern Hunter
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RE: Detailed Battle Suggestions

Post by Southern Hunter »

ORIGINAL: cambronne

Hunter,
May I ask for the name of the book this is from?

Books? Books?! Are they some kind of pre-google search engine or something?

http://www.napoleon-series.org/military ... eylau.html

Cheers,

Hunter
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Southern Hunter
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RE: Detailed Battle Suggestions

Post by Southern Hunter »

Further suggestion about cavalry charges:

- Reduce the cost of cavalry moving in line, and greatly increase the cost of wheeling in line and forming a line.

This would allow a cavalry charge to be 'lined up' at range, outside musket range, and then charged home quickly. At the moment, it is almost impossible to get a charge in when in line, since both the movement and turning are quite expensive.

With the suggested change, the infantry defender could see cavalry charges being lined up, and respond by turning into square, or suffer the charge. Cavalry in odd situations without room to charge would be less of a threat.

Typically as cavalry commander, you would move in columns, until you wanted to attack, then form line 'in line' for a charge the following turn.

All of this seems 'realistic' to me, since forming a line was a lot of effort, and wheeling it a very slow process indeed. If you wanted to move the line somewhere other than straight, then you would return to maneuver columns.

Additionally, there should be a large bonus to fighting in line (or penalty to fighting in column).

Whether the AI could handle all of this is a separate problem I guess :P

Cheers,

Hunter
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ericbabe
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RE: Detailed Battle Suggestions

Post by ericbabe »

That's a great idea for the cost changes.  I'll jot that down.  (In my opinion, the AI tends to form line with its cavalry a little too often, so giving a bigger bonus to that might help the AI more.)
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Southern Hunter
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RE: Detailed Battle Suggestions

Post by Southern Hunter »

A couple of other suggestions (after much game play):

- Being able to form line in woods and/or other rough terrain. It looks and feels odd to be in column in woods.

- Trying to reform cavalry is the most frustrating thing going. Normally you have a low chance (10-40%), depending on where you are, quality of troops, etc. For some troops, it cannot be made more than about 20%, also depending on the weather and so on. And when you try to form them into column or line, they go shaken more often than not, thus requiring more time. It feels like a lottery, with good results very rare. The simple fix would be to prevent them going shaken if not near the enemy, this seems wrong. A better fix might be to somehow require several turns to reform, but have it as a guaranteed result after 3-5 turns (or whatever).

Cheers,

Hunter
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ericbabe
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RE: Detailed Battle Suggestions

Post by ericbabe »

The low cavalry chance of reforming was something we played with quite a bit as a game balance issue: cavalry are just super-powerful when they can reform in only a few turns.  I don't think this is unhistorical though.

Similarly for forming lines in rough terrain: rough terrain gives a defensive advantage, a great defensive advantage against charges, whereas line gives a great offensive advantage.  Right now players have to choose between the defensive advantage of rough terrain or the offensive advantage of line formation.  We felt that letting people form lines in rough terrain would take away the interesting game decision, since forming lines in rough terrain would always be the best thing to do.  It might be interesting to let skilled units, units with commanders, or perhaps just light infantry, form lines in rough terrain, but not to let them move into such terrain while in line.



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Southern Hunter
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RE: Detailed Battle Suggestions

Post by Southern Hunter »

I am happy with cavalry taking a long time to reform; I am unhappy with them cycling through becoming 'shaken' and 'disordered' in trying to reform. Indeed, cavalry becoming 'blown' after charging is good. If perhaps the chance of reforming could be lowered, but have a small increase each turn they rest, then at least there would be a way to make steady progress to reform.

I had never considered the rough terrain thing in those terms. I like the solution of LI (and rifles?) being able to form lines in rough. We don't want to turn this into the ACW after all :-)

Hunter
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