Wild Bill the Legend, when's the next shipment of goods due in?

[PimpYourAFV]

I check occasionally here to see if there's any new publication from the Wild Crew? Any news? [:'(]

[forgorin]

Dont feel any presure to help feed us parisites. But serious Bill whenever where ever, looking forward to it.
Just starting the "long long road to somewhere" now! Damn those Frenchies sure know how to kick you right where it counts! My paratroopers took what we like to call a baptism by death! Too bad you cant really learn anything from it!

[PimpYourAFV]

That's really good that your paratroopers are receiving a beating cause remember... what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger. Of course, the 'you' means you the colonel, not the paratroopers being wasted. I'm sure some of the fuzzy, warm & feely folks from the 'casualty minimizing' school of thought ('kindergarten of thought' is more like it) will get ants in their pants over this but that ancient bit of wisdom holds true and wasn't made up by me.

Oh ya, the 'Long, long road to death' campaign is good one! Even more fun when played as the French or Anzacs.

[azraelck]

Chinese and Israelites from many thousands of years ago disagree. Read "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu; and "Battles of Ancient Israel" to see what the anchient military leaders thought on losing their most valuable commodity; manpower.

[PimpYourAFV]

ORIGINAL: azraelck

Chinese and Israelites from many thousands of years ago disagree. Read "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu; and "Battles of Ancient Israel" to see what the anchient military leaders thought on losing their most valuable commodity; manpower.

azrealk, for your info, the Chinese military does not follow ancient rhetoric from Sun Tsu penned during the age of swords and arrows. The Chinese rely on the proven human wave attack they successfully used in the Korean war and in their brief but successful invasion of India. The North Vietnamese were also taught that heavy losses ensure victories and won their war as well. It's odd that you would select the nation with the world's largest overpopulation problem to argue in favor of preserving 'valuable' manpower. You need to find something much more current to argue your point than what people from 'many thousands of years ago' said. [:-]

[forgorin]

Peace brother. Let there be love and happiness all around for all to share. I love you. You love me. Let us love everyone.

[Korpraali V]

Actually Chinese covernment was about to leave Korea on it's own because of too heavy casualties during the early involvement.

Source: S.J.Ball, The Cold War

[soldier]

I can't think of any general who wen't out of their way to take heavy casualties if victory could be won without them except for some late war IJA guys and history shows that their banzai charge philosophy had disastrous consequences for maintaining any kind of war effort. Certainly some Combatants have been sucessful if they have the numbers, and are fighting a hated enemy on their own homesoil for an ideology they are absolutely commited to preserving (Vietnamese & Soviets come to mind). Otherwise taking heavy casualties, where they could be avoided is often the sign of a losing general who is incompetant and out of his depth.

[forgorin]

Just wondering if any of these "Generals" ever played computer games where they "just for the fun of it" Sent their men in "a human wave attack" just to have a little fun! But I should not be saying this EH!! Oh well here comes the "attack". Looks around fanticly for some cover. Upon seeing none sighs and sits down.[:D]

[azraelck]

Hmm. Among actual military historians, war veterans, and even some media outlets; it is pretty well agreed that it was nlot the NVA or Viet Cong that won the war in Vietnam. It was in fact the US media, who destroyed the public support of the operations back home and forced the withdrawl. It was universally accepted, even by the Viet Cong and NVA; that the Tet offensive crippled the North Vietnamese war effort, and the later Easter offensive left them with such a lack of manpower that if the US hadn't lost public support, and been withdrawling already; they could have easily swept the remnants to China.

I speak not of modern China, who's ideas of making people like you consist of running them over with tanks while they march in protest. Though, as said they were ready to withdrawl from the Vietnam campaign due to heavy casualties. I speak of ancient Chinese, who knew that losing your skilled warriors made no sense; and the ancient Israelites; who formed a nation from a nomadic group of former slaves; and defeated far numerically, logistically, and better equipped Cananites to form their nation. They also were able to hold that nation for some time despite a lack of population to support massed amounts of troops; and in recent years re-establish that same nation and hold on to it despite being severely outnumbered; often outclassed (they used Shermans in many wars; where the Arabs used more modern (for the times) Soviet tanks); and in poor positions more often than not.

[Svennemir]

Just wondering if any of these "Generals" ever played computer games where they "just for the fun of it" Sent their men in "a human wave attack" just to have a little fun!

I do that sometimes! It's boring to win all the time (which is ridiculously easy against the AI), and the apocalyptic feeling can be bolstered by playing Brahms' Requiem while storming forward. Think of it as 'let's see if this is possible'-type battles.

On an interesting note, if some of you have played Panzer General 2, it's beneficial to incur the maximum possible losses on your forces (without destroying your units), since free replacements will be provided - up to a certain strength - without reducing troop experience. Very unrealistic, and it's risky to use the strategy since you could end up having units destroyed completely. So here what doesn't kill you can only make you stronger

[forgorin]

Too true Svennemir! I loved the Panzer series. Too bad it it died[:@] Like you said getting your men killed off seemed to teach them how to fight better! Wish that were the case here!

[PimpYourAFV]

ORIGINAL: forgorin

Too true Svennemir! I loved the Panzer series. Too bad it it died[:@] Like you said getting your men killed off seemed to teach them how to fight better! Wish that were the case here!

Works the same in real life too. Short-sighted, low IQ types will argue otherwise, but no one can deny the Red Army after losing tens of millions of people, was infinitely stronger in 1945 than it was in 1941. Ditto for the Vietnamese after the commies got pounded by America and losing over a million people. Same concept as working out with weights. You destroy muscle fibres to make them stronger. So the more losses an army takes, the stronger it gets. Simple and true but few can understand that.

[Svennemir]

Works the same in real life too. Short-sighted, low IQ types will argue otherwise, but no one can deny the Red Army after losing tens of millions of people, was infinitely stronger in 1945 than it was in 1941. Ditto for the Vietnamese after the commies got pounded by America and losing over a million people. Same concept as working out with weights. You destroy muscle fibres to make them stronger. So the more losses an army takes, the stronger it gets. Simple and true but few can understand that.

I find that rather dubious. Of course there is an element of 'natural selection' in the process, yes, but if veterans are killed off they will be replaced by recruits, and that's not an improvement. Panzer General had a lot of cool elements, but troop replacement without penalty to experience was not one of them IMHO. I'll dare to say that in the cases you mention, the increase in strength can be attributed to so many other factors than losses: namely increasing experience of leaders (who are not killed), improved war production, probably loads of other factors.

[Wild Bill]

Thanks, Gentlemen, for asking. I am giving some thought to something in North Africa. There has not bee a lot of late on the matter. Kasserine would make a good series or even a campaign. I need to do more research on the subject.

If any of you have any good web sites on this theme, would you post them here. I'm not good at finding things on the internet.

A campaign from the German side with Herr Rommel in the lead might produce an interesting little campaign on the this last offensive thrust of the Germans in Tunisia.

Thoughts? ... And web sites?

WB

[azraelck]

Given that the Red Army had been going through systematic purges prior to Hitler making his first moves in the war; it's not suprising that the red Army was stronger. It actually had experienced officers at that point; whereas when Barbarrosa began, they had all been killed by Stalin.

However, their victory in 1945 came less due to an actual increase in soviet strength; that was actually at such a point that if the Germans were able to hold out much longer, then the Soviet Union would not have had the manpower to continue the war; rather than a decrease in strength of the German military and production capability. This was due to heavy casualties in fighting on multiple fronts, loss of morale after over a year of setbacks and defeats; allied bombing which crippled German production of arms and ammunition; and serious shortages of manpower and material. The soviet Union only survived due to continual changes in orders for the German armies, their native climate; and the logistical nightmare of maintaining the German forces; especially since they kept changing the damn orders so much that the entire force was bogged down in confusion as to what the hell they were suppossed to be doing. If the germans had presented a unified force, and took Moscow first, rather than changing objectives to Kiev then back, then back to Kiev... then the Soviet Union, berfit of a head, would have found it's self at a severe disadvantage. It was luck, German inconsistancy and confusion, Hitlers lack of tactical capability that a retarded child could bring to beat, and "General winter" that saved the Bolshevik butt.

[serg3d]

ORIGINAL: azraelck
that was actually at such a point that if the Germans were able to hold out much longer, then the Soviet Union would not have had the manpower to continue the war;

That is only your opinion, in no way it's an established fact. There were still plenty of untapped manpower in the south Soviet Republics like Usbekistan, Azerbaijzan etc. Soviet Union could run out of food on its own, but with US help that wouldn't happen. IMO the only way Hitler could hope to win, if he set himself up as a liberator from Stalin, kolhoz and NKVD/Gulag, and rase indigenous russian army from war prisoners and occupied population. But that would kind of contradict to the whole the porpose of the war - displacing and enslaving russians. Even after things turned bad for him Hitler resisted concept of arming russian prisoners.
Anyway the whole question is a staff of flame wars, and this forum is not a proper place to discuss it.

[trip 1509]

Thanks, Gentlemen, for asking. I am giving some thought to something in North Africa. There has not bee a lot of late on the matter. Kasserine would make a good series or even a campaign. I need to do more research on the subject.

If any of you have any good web sites on this theme, would you post them here. I'm not good at finding things on the internet.

A campaign from the German side with Herr Rommel in the lead might produce an interesting little campaign on the this last offensive thrust of the Germans in Tunisia.

Thoughts? ... And web sites?

WB

WB

How about these:

www.worldwar2database.com/html/kasserine.htm

www.historylearningsite.co.uk/kasserine_pass.htm

http://militaryhistory.about.com/cs/kas ... /index.htm

Trip

[Wild Bill]

All good, Trip. I've heard from a number of SPWAW stalwarts with excellent web sites and some good book lists. Now it is up to me to get this moving. Thanks to everyone for your quick response.

WB

[Alby]

you know, In editing some of Wild Bills campaigns
I think I have found that Bill really likes the StuH 42 and the 88mm Panzergranate in the German arsenal

[:D]