Modifications to MWiF China Map portion

[mycodave]

Hi Guys,

My first post here (long-time lurker). I had a random thought about the Balance in China issue:

Would it be an idea to have a new terrain type - a "supply city" for use with all the new MWIF cities?
The *only* use for such a city would be supply.
Thus there would only be a check for US entry effects in the original WIF FE cities, and perhaps reinforcements could be only placed in the original cities etc. The loss of the communist capital would therefore remain quite devastating to the Chinese - the communists would remain in supply, but would have no new reinforcements until an original city was liberated.

That might help reduce some considerable playtesting difficulties...or maybe not.
If this has already been thought of, and disregarded, then please disregard the above [:)]

Cheers,
Dave

[wosung]

Selection of new cities:

Problem with Communist China is, that there don't exist lots of cities: poor border-country full of Mountains. [font="Arial"]Sining[/font] and [font="Arial"]Ningsia[/font] are the only additional provincial cities there. IRL Communists didn't care much about the cities then. What if in WIF the communist held Cities are conquered, are there still Communist Partisans?

The nowadays more important Hofei could be substituted with [font="Arial"]Anking[/font] (just one hex apart, in the mountainous Yangzi-hex to the south east, then Provincial capital of Anhwei).

In the South additional historical important cites were [font="Arial"]Kweilin[/font] (then provincial capital of Kwangsi), [font="Arial"]Hengyang[/font] (in the middle between Changsha and Canton, along the rail). And what about [font="Arial"]Kangting[/font] (220 km straight to the west of Chengtu, and Provincial capital of then Sikang Province)?

Regards

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: mycodave

Hi Guys,

My first post here (long-time lurker). I had a random thought about the Balance in China issue:

Would it be an idea to have a new terrain type - a "supply city" for use with all the new MWIF cities?
The *only* use for such a city would be supply.
Thus there would only be a check for US entry effects in the original WIF FE cities, and perhaps reinforcements could be only placed in the original cities etc. The loss of the communist capital would therefore remain quite devastating to the Chinese - the communists would remain in supply, but would have no new reinforcements until an original city was liberated.

That might help reduce some considerable playtesting difficulties...or maybe not.
If this has already been thought of, and disregarded, then please disregard the above [:)]

Cheers,
Dave

Yes, this is possible. Both the change in US Entry cost (so it is not the same for every Chinese city) and the change in where reinforcements can arrive (harder to do, but not unreasonable).

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: wosung
The Names should read,

I suppose all the names you gave are 1940 names, am I ok ?

for the north-west;
Tungkwan*

Is this my Tongguan ?

Ningsia (like the province, itself = modern Yinchuan)
*IRL really historical insginficant small places

What city on my map is Ningsia ? Is it Yinchuan ?

for the north-eastern/ middlechina part
Hsüchow (Your Suchow, which IRL is near Hangchow)

All of my WWII maps show Suchow east of Chengchow, north of Nanning. Are they wrong ?

Yencheng (Your Xiangfan, I think)

Isn't Yencheng rather Yichang, on the Yangsee river ? Can't find that Yenchen city.
My Xiangfan is on the Han Kiang river.

But, maybe I should replace Xiangfan with the Nanyang city, who is on more maps, and in the same area (Id place it 1 hex Nortwast from Xiangfan).

South China
Chihchiang (can't find it, probably really small) What about exchanging it with Kweilin (Guilin), which was an important traffic centre between the Hinterland and the coast in the "Antijapanese Resistance War"?

I have Chihkiang on the WWII maps I have.
Where is Kweilin (Guilin) ? What is the 1940 name ?

And please just think about removing the "-" between the syllables, to make it uniform. Otherwise it is looking, well unprofessional. Even if this ment asking WIF god himself. Imagine 1,4 billion potential WIF customers confused, because they can't find their cities. [:'(]

I agree, you're right.
On the modified map I'm doing, I'm removing the dashes.
Steve will decide if he removes them on the existing map, but I would vote for it, even if this is a departure from the WiF FE map.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
I would add only, if any have to be added at all:
Tianshui - a veritable Communist lifesaver being a city in a mountain hex on the rail line between Lan Chow and Si An.
Baoding - provides a stopgap supply point in the north east of China.
Xiangfan - provides a stopgap Nationalist supply point in Mid China.
Suchow - a stopgap supply point of minor importance, it starts in Japanese control.
Liuchow - a stopgap supply point in southern China, but do not change the rail line there.
I think the other additions proposed are either too strong additions for the Chinese or without much importance except for adding US entry costs.

Your remarks are going the same way are those of the provious posters are, that is, less added cities.

I already removed Sining, Baoji & Yinchuan [:(].

What about Ankang & Chihchiang ?
I think they are necessary to provide supply to the Chinese armies in these mountains.
Chinese units in these mountains are in supply from Chungking in WiF FE, but here, Chungking is too far.
I wouldn't remove them.

[wosung]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: wosung
The Names should read,

I suppose all the names you gave are 1940 names, am I ok ?

Yep

for the north-west;
Tungkwan*

Is this my Tongguan ?

Yep: This is your Tongguan

Ningsia (like the province, itself = modern Yinchuan)
*IRL really historical insginficant small places

What city on my map is Ningsia ? Is it Yinchuan ?

Yep: Yinchuan

for the north-eastern/ middlechina part
Hsüchow (Your Suchow, which IRL is near Hangchow)

All of my WWII maps show Suchow east of Chengchow, north of Nanning. Are they wrong ?

OK, quite complicated: there are at least 2 Suchows. Different Chinese characters are pronounced the same way, thus transcribed with the same latin letters. I Checked again: Your Suchow does exist east of Chengchow, north of Nanning; 50 km south of my Hsüchow (same sized city) a.k. in the same WIF hex. Both are quite unknown places.

Problem is, I first thought of Suchow No. 2, which is one of the most famed cities in China ("Chinese Venice"), and which is near Hangchow. So it looked like a fault. Sorry

Yencheng (Your Xiangfan, I think)

Isn't Yencheng rather Yichang, on the Yangsee river ? Can't find that Yenchen city.
My Xiangfan is on the Han Kiang river.

Sorry can't find it right now

But, maybe I should replace Xiangfan with the Nanyang city, who is on more maps, and in the same area (Id place it 1 hex Nortwast from Xiangfan).

I would go for Nanyang (bigger, better known)

South China
Chihchiang (can't find it, probably really small) What about exchanging it with Kweilin (Guilin), which was an important traffic centre between the Hinterland and the coast in the "Antijapanese Resistance War"?

I have Chihkiang on the WWII maps I have.

See one of my other posts: It is really a small place (if that is a criteria for MWIF)

Where is Kweilin (Guilin) ? What is the 1940 name?

Kweilin (Guilin) is between Kweiyang and Canton, on the height of Nanning.

And please just think about removing the "-" between the syllables, to make it uniform. Otherwise it is looking, well unprofessional. Even if this ment asking WIF god himself. Imagine 1,4 billion potential WIF customers confused, because they can't find their cities. [:'(]

I agree, you're right.
On the modified map I'm doing, I'm removing the dashes.
Steve will decide if he removes them on the existing map, but I would vote for it, even if this is a departure from the WiF FE map.

Regards, over, out

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Wosung
South China
Chihchiang (can't find it, probably really small) What about exchanging it with Kweilin (Guilin), which was an important traffic centre between the Hinterland and the coast in the "Antijapanese Resistance War"?

Chihchiang and Kweilin are not in the same place.
Kweilin would be 2 hex NE of Liuchow, on the rail, that is 4 hexes south of Chihchiang.
A city where I put Chihchiang is necessary for supply in the mountains east of Chungking.

About Kweilin, I can put it on the map to replace Liuchow, and then I could put the resource back at its starting place.

Also, talikng about resources, someone sussgested placing the resources closer to the sea.
What about moving the resource that is south of Changsha 2 hexes southwards, in the middle of the woods ? This would be more true to the WiF FE maps.

I could also move the railways junctions that is south of Changsha 1 hex southwards too. That would be more true to the WiF FE maps too.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Wosung
Problem with Communist China is, that there don't exist lots of cities: poor border-country full of Mountains. Sining and Ningsia are the only additional provincial cities there. IRL Communists didn't care much about the cities then. What if in WIF the communist held Cities are conquered, are there still Communist Partisans?

There are still Communist Partisans, even if there are no more Communist armies. But the Communist Armies are the real threat on Japan. Communist partisans are just losses takers or supply cutters. They are not strong enough to attack alone.
If the Communist loose all their cities, remaining Communist units can still conquer a Nationalist city to make it a Communist City and still have reinforcements & supply, provided the remaining Communist armies are near enough to go to the nearest Nationalist City.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

For naming cities, I like going with what Wosung suggests, even if that changes what is printed on the WIF FE maps. I would want them to be names appropriate for English speakers, circa 1937-1945, and to be consistent in their spelling mechanics.

I agree.

For adding cities and rail lines, I suggest breaking the problem into the 3 geographical areas you started with. If a consensus can be achieved for one or two of those sections, then the problem is smaller.

I agree to add cities, I disagree to add railways, except those that I "added" (who were on the WiF FE maps, and were not on the MWiF map, so I did not add any to the WiF FE maps).

There are 13 cities (plus 1 port) left to discuss (I use the new names provided by Wosung here) :

North zone
Ankang
Ningsia (was Yinchuan)
Sining
Tienshui
Tungkwan (was Tongguan)

Coast zone
Paoting (was Baoding)
Hofei (was Hefei) (or Anking suggested by Wosung -- 1 hex SE Hofei)
Nanchang
Suchow
Xiangfan (or Nanyang suggested by Wosung -- 1 hex NE of Xiangfan)
Tsingkow port (was Xinhailian)

South zone
Chihchiang
Hengyang (suggested by Wosung -- 2 hexes south of Changsha, on the rail)
Liuchow (or Kweilin suggested by Wosung -- 2 hex NE of Liuchow, on the rail)

Maybe we could have a vote for each one them ?
Each one of us could vote YES / NO for each ?
You could paste the list in your answer post and add YES / NO beside the name, writing the name of the city you would prefer when there are 2 choices.

Please Wosung, correct the names if I went wrong again.

[Froonp]

My vote :

North zone
Ankang YES
Ningsia (was Yinchuan) YES
Sining YES
Tienshui YES
Tungkwan (was Tongguan) YES

Coast zone
Paoting (was Baoding) YES
Hofei (was Hefei) (or Anking suggested by Wosung -- 1 hex SE Hofei) YES Anking
Nanchang YES
Suchow YES
Xiangfan (or Nanyang suggested by Wosung -- 1 hex NE of Xiangfan) YES Nanyang
Tsingkow port (was Xinhailian) YES

South zone
Chihchiang YES
Hengyang (suggested by Wosung -- 2 hexes south of Changsha, on the rail) NO
Liuchow (or Kweilin suggested by Wosung -- 2 hex NE of Liuchow, on the rail) YES Kweilin (and resource back to its original place)

[lomyrin]

Both Ankang and Chihchian are mountain cities and immediately will become very costly for the Japanese to overcome.

The ChihChian area can be in supply from a Chi HQ most of the time.

Ankang is in an area where there is nothing else except more mountains, in the now existing map neither Chinese nor Japanese are likely to go through there. If there was a coity there where reinforcements can arrive it would force the Japanese to allocate some units to screen that rather than participate in the main campaign in China.

Although the computer map has a great many more hexes than the WiFFE map there are no more units available than in WiFFE. In WiFFE there usually is a continuous Chinese line against an equally placed Japanese one. In MWiF there will only be selected areas where units are present and campaigning and there will be a lot of empty land areas. Beacuse the Japanes also must trace supply they will mostly advance along rail lines. Placing extra Chinese units in new cities in the areas the Japanese must traverse will drastically change the China campaigns.

I noticed that Steve mentioned the possiblity of making the extra Chinese cities an option, that would solve this subject pretty well in that then players could choose to have them or not.

As I mentioned before, unforeseen impacts to the game are likely by adding these cities.

Lars

[Froonp]

As I mentioned before, unforeseen impacts to the game are likely by adding these cities.

Whatever the choices are made here, we're supposed to playtest it anyway.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

Both Ankang and Chihchian are mountain cities and immediately will become very costly for the Japanese to overcome.

Overcoming a moutain hex or a city mountain hex is nearly the same.
Chances are high that the defender chooses the assault table anyway even if there are no cities.
For me this is not a real problem.

The Japanese extending a frontline, and flanking the Chinese, because they have 3 HQ and the Nationalist Chinese only have 1 is a problem. If no cities are added, this is what happens.

Cities not linked by rail are less a threat to the Japanese, as Chinese appearing there are also going nowhere, except if an HQ appear here. The Japanese will screen it to be safe, but the Japanese have to leave A LOT troops behind anyway only because of the Partisans threat, so that's not an Ankang city that will be an extra hassle. The Chengchow - Sian railway is of special concern here, as a couple of partisans arriving here can cut the whole Japanese army between Sian & Lanchow (less now that I moved the railway from Taiyuan).

[lomyrin]

My Vote:

North: Tienshui

Coast: Paoting, Xiangfan, Suchow

South: Liuchow

However, my preference would be to have these cities inclusion be an option.

For comparison purposes: The Russian areas east of Stalingrad have certainly been expanded enormously by the unitary map scale. There are large areas there that have supply problems but hopefully this will not be changed.

Lars

[Froonp]

For comparison purposes: The Russian areas east of Stalingrad have certainly been expanded enormously by the unitary map scale. There are large areas there that have supply problems but hopefully this will not be changed.

Sure, but it is also a supply hole in WiF FE. And it is an area of less importance as there are quite never any armies going there (only saw it once).

In China, there are a lot more supply holes at this scale than on the WiF FE pacific scale map.

[Neilster]

Man, those railways look good [:'(]

Cheers, Neilster

[wosung]

I would vote for:

North zone
Ankang
Ningsia (was Yinchuan) see: Oxford Companion to WW2 Map, p. 218
Sining Oxford Companion, p. 218
Tienshui
Tungkwan (was Tongguan) Oxford Companion, p. 218

Coast zone
Paoting (was Baoding)
Anking (1 hex SE Hofei)
Nanchang Oxford Companion, p. 218
Hsuchow (instead of same-hex-Suchow, because I don't want it to be mixed up with the other Suchow. Oxford companion, p. 218)
Nanyang (because it was the more important city. 1 hex NE of Xiangfan, which should then read "Siangfan")
Tsingkow port (was Xinhailian)

South zone
Chihchiang (even if it's more or less a village)
Hengyang (2 hexes south of Changsha, on the rail, see: Oxford Companion, p. 218)
Kweilin (2 hex NE of Liuchow, on the rail, because it was an important traffic centre during WW2, Oxford Companion, p. 218).

For a coherent WW2 Transcription the above names are chosen and transcribed along the following 3 sources:

1. The Oxford Companion to the Second World War, ed. I.C.B Dear, Oxford 1995, O. University Press, p. 218 (the China map in the Book that even Harry Rowland would take with him on a lonely island).

2. Tang Leangli, Reconstruction in China, Shanghai 1935, China United Press. (the huge traffic map in the addendum, lots of hardware information, but please note that this book is in parts propaganda about Kuomintang industrialization for us Westerners).

3. Chinese Ministry of Information, China Handbook, 1937-1944: A Comprehensive Survey of Major Developments in China in Seven Years of War, Chungking 1944, p.3 (administrative divisions according to the Ministry of Interior. Lots of hardware information, but please note that this book is in parts propaganda about Kuomintang war-time effort for us Westerners).

Please note, that usually the names in maps of China are incoherent, both using and not using the "-". This is the case even in academic work, like in the Cambridge History of China. The above used transcription is some sort of official (National) Chinese war-time transcription (sligthly altered Wade-Giles system: Sian instead of Hsi-an).

Based on that sources the already existing chinese city names should coherently be: (and hey: it's only a proposal)

old - new
Peking - Peiping
Tien-Tsin - Tientsin
Tai-Yuan - Taiyuan
Lan Chow - Lanchow
Tsi-Nan - Tsinan
Tsing-Tao - Tsingtao
Si-An - Sian
Nanking - Nanking
Cheng-Tu - Chengtu
Wuhan - Wuhan
Hang-Chow - Hangchow
Shanghai - Shanghai
Chung King - Chungking
Chang-Sha - Changsha
Kwei-Yang - Kweiyang
Kunming - Kunming
Canton - Canton
Hong Kong - Hongkong

The old Manchurian names are ok (at least on my 4th ed. WIF map)
Plus: Chengchow, Foochow

I think the naming quite coherent, but please get a second opinon (certainly apart from your own opinion).

Regards

And by the way: what about enlarging other parts of Asia (Manchuria and so on)?!

[Incy]

I've played the CWiF china map several times, and I don't agree that the way to go is fewer (than suggested) cities.
Cities are good defensive ground, they give -1 on the combat table unless an HQ is part of the attack. They also help reduce the risk of catastrophic encirclement. Thus, more cities will help whatever side is defending.

My feeling is that China in MWiF is to "open", it's like the ukraine or north-east France, good blitz country.
I want more forest, rivers, cities, swamps, etc.
In WIFFE China is like that. Almost every single hex has some feature that helps the defender or slows down the attacker. When a hex is lost, it's not neccesary to pull back 500 km to the next viable defensive line (like in russia), one can just shift slightly stronger units into the hexes that are now more exposed, and let the line stand.

I would like to keep china like that, and since we are halving the scale, we're effectively quadrupling (at least) the number of hexes. Thus, to maintain city density, we'd have to quadruple the number of cities!!. Maybe that's a bit over the top, but at least I'd like to move in that direction. China should be line upon line upon line upon line, and partisans in the rear if one advances to far...

And don't forget, cities help the defender even if the defender is Japan. Yes to more cities & more ports in occupied China, that will helt Japan staying ashore if they're getting pushed back.


As for specific details I'm not an expert on China, but it seems to me Canton should probably be a city, and I'm also missing all the coastal ports/cities the Japanese captured early. And could we have chinese Sprately islands??


Incy

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Incy
I would like to keep china like that, and since we are halving the scale, we're effectively quadrupling (at least) the number of hexes. Thus, to maintain city density, we'd have to quadruple the number of cities!!. Maybe that's a bit over the top, but at least I'd like to move in that direction. China should be line upon line upon line upon line, and partisans in the rear if one advances to far...

It's more than 6 MWiF hexes to 1 WiF FE hex.

Size of China :
It was 10 hex rows from Peking to Canton in WiF FE, it is 24 hex rows now in MWiF.
It was 7 hex columns from Shanghai to Lan Chow in WiF FE, it is 19-20 hex columns now in MWiF.

It went from a surface of about 70 hexes to a surface of about 468 hexes (if China was a rectangle).


Partisans with those vast spaces, and those scarse railways are very very deadly.

China gives a false feeling of being like butter for Japan, but it is another story once in the mountains, far from the railways, with few HQs and few rear troops.

[wosung]

I can see your point.

Personally I just played around with CWIF, never played the board game. So I've barely WIF experience of long-time fans: "How it should play". And I think, old customers are the majority here.

Geographically and historically speaking:

1. More cities would indeed reflect Chinese huge population (over 400 Million in war-time) and even some aspects of the war: Rape of Nanking, the fierce city fights, the Chinese occasional were able to put up: Shanghai (OK that was 1937, pre WIF), Taierchuang...

2. Perhaps one should think about additional terrain features:

-one or two lake hexes (between Wuhan and Changsha, North of Nanchang, East of Shanghai, North of Nanjing)
-A river from Tianjin to Nanjing (imperial north-South Channel)
-some more mountain hexes in middle eastern China
-some more desert hexes in north China

I think, the war in China shouldn't be European style blitzkrieg, but along the rivers, railways and in coastal middle China, there could be war of maneuver.

3. I also think (but that's only my opinion): there are too many railways in then 3d world country China (see my older post in this tread for historical details) I know sometimes they do represent rivers (like the Weihe/Weiho from Sian to Lanchow).

But there is my problem: By doing so, sometimes you transform an obstacle into an traffic artery. And by the way, was this "railization" also done in other parts of the world (Russia)?

Perhaps we should wait for the playtesters experience with the new map of China.

Regards