Manual

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
It's clear you can't play this game to any decent standard without the manual.

I would dispute this part. A 10-minute tour of the game/interface and some general operational warfare knowledge can go a long way. Now, you will learn *a lot* by reading the manual, but the intuitive interface makes sure you can dive straight in and gain proficiency just by experience.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: Banquet

I would rather have a printed manual as well. I rarely read pdf's all the way through because I find it tedious reading manuals on screen. When I'm sitting in front of a computer screen I want to be playing the game. When I'm lying in at the weekend, having breakfast, having a bath, etc - that's when I catch up on the manual.

I agree. Im sure many of us who are married know our PC time is precious. With a printed manual I can still sit with the wife etc etc.

[ravinhood]

I definitely notice there is a lot less eye strain reading a bound manual vs computer pdf format. Reading from the computer screen for long periods of times gives me headaches. I don't have this issue reading from a bound BOOK manual. But, since I can read them in bed I do fall asleep sometimes.

All I would ask that Matrixgames do is "provide a bound manual service" since they are so prone to tell us to just goto kinko's or print them out ourselves. I think they should offer the service. Who would pay $10 more for a printed bound doesn't have to be glossy or have artwork on it? I mean they already charge us $10 for just a simple CD and shipping and handling besides. Then make it seem like we are saving $10 by direct download lol. What an illusion. Since the direct download price is the same as what regular games cost in brick n mortar stores retail. lol They really need to take a lesson from Ron Dockal. He made AGW, did a very nice 96 page spiral bound manual AND a COLORFUL 4 page Reference chart and all this for $29.99, now, there's someone who doesn't gouge his customers, but, gives them their moneys worth plus.

[JudgeDredd]

Well I'm not sure about being ripped off by cost or anything else...I just want to state the facts...

Negatives of Non printed manual
1. PDF manuals are a no goer for me
2. PDF manuals hurt my eyes - I look at writing on a computer screen all day at work, I don't want to do it at home
3. if I print it myself, I have A4 paper everywhere, unbound and messy
4. just the fact that it's A4 is a pain in the royal
5. the cost of a printed manual fro me alone to purchase would be extremely high
6. I am stuck to reading it at home, on the screen, NOT in bed, NOT in the living room with the wife and kids, NOT at work during break

Positives of a printed manual
1. I can read it anywhere
2. It doesn't hurt my eyes
3. The cost, due to the publisher supplying it, is far cheaper than me alone having it done
4. it's nice and handy A5 - NOT A4
5. it's bound and tidy

I recently bought HoI2:Doomsday and that came with a very useful, professionally finished bound manual which is a great read AND I can read it anywhere and don't have to store it in an A4 binder...and that only cost me £11.99!!

Now the money isn't an issue, but not producing a manual for the price of the game is really. I know you guys work hard. And I know your putting out a quality product, but really, without a printed manual, it is unfinished. That's my opinion.

Come on Matrix...rethink will you...please?

[Arjuna]

Hi all,

We hear your concerns. There are some things I would like to say so you can appreciate things from our perspective.

To do any extras, including localisation, printing of manuals etc, all costs up front money and that is something in non-existent supply at the moment. Further, given the likely sales numbers it's just not justified. In other words the cost of doing so would not be recouped. People need to be aware that this is a niche market not mainstream. We need to sell 10,000 units just to recoup our costs. I doubt we will make that. That's the cold hard facts. This is a mugs game that only the foolish, crazy or obsessed persue. I don't think we're foolish but I'll leave it you to work out which of the other two applies in our case.[;)]

We certainly are in no position to subsidise the printing of manuals. To print a 500 page color manual is going to cost a bucket of money for the small print run. Commercial software companies like Adobe that charge you thousands of dollars for their software can afford to print nice bound colour manuals. But nowdays even these companies tend to provide a pdf on disk and offer a printed manual for $30 extra.

Now how many of you are prepared to pay $30 extra for the printed manual? Once you start producing a physical product then you get into the realm of markups for everyone involved. They all quite reasonably want to be paid for the effort they put into it.

And just because some other games company is foolish enough to subsidise their product to gain sales does not mean that we should.

I haven't discussed this with David Heath of Matrix yet but I would say that if we can get 2,000 users to commit to paying $30 for printed manuals then we could look into it. Otherwise it's not going to happen. I am sorry to be so blunt but I think we all need to realise that being a niche market we just cannot afford to provide all the bells and whistles and that if we do we have to pay a premium price. That's the bottom line.

[GoodGuy]

Well, crazy AND sometimes obsessed here.

Anyway, 15 bucks excluding shipping and handling wouldn't hurt anyone. Get it printed in India and you'll get things done at low expense. Seriously, I'm sure that an optional "printed manual" thingy for those ppl with sore eyes could turn into a popular product, given the nature of this game/genre and its fans.

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Hi all,

We hear your concerns. There are some things I would like to say so you can appreciate things from our perspective.

To do any extras, including localisation, printing of manuals etc, all costs up front money and that is something in non-existent supply at the moment. Further, given the likely sales numbers it's just not justified. In other words the cost of doing so would not be recouped. People need to be aware that this is a niche market not mainstream. We need to sell 10,000 units just to recoup our costs. I doubt we will make that. That's the cold hard facts. This is a mugs game that only the foolish, crazy or obsessed persue. I don't think we're foolish but I'll leave it you to work out which of the other two applies in our case.[;)]

We certainly are in no position to subsidise the printing of manuals. To print a 500 page color manual is going to cost a bucket of money for the small print run. Commercial software companies like Adobe that charge you thousands of dollars for their software can afford to print nice bound colour manuals. But nowdays even these companies tend to provide a pdf on disk and offer a printed manual for $30 extra.

Now how many of you are prepared to pay $30 extra for the printed manual? Once you start producing a physical product then you get into the realm of markups for everyone involved. They all quite reasonably want to be paid for the effort they put into it.

And just because some other games company is foolish enough to subsidise their product to gain sales does not mean that we should.

I haven't discussed this with David Heath of Matrix yet but I would say that if we can get 2,000 users to commit to paying $30 for printed manuals then we could look into it. Otherwise it's not going to happen. I am sorry to be so blunt but I think we all need to realise that being a niche market we just cannot afford to provide all the bells and whistles and that if we do we have to pay a premium price. That's the bottom line.

I hear you Dave.

Still want a printed manual, though! [;)]

Seriously, though, we do hear you....but be aware no-one here really knows how many games this will sell world wide. No-one here really knows the cost of producing the game and therefore how low/non-existent your profit margin is going to be. No-one here knows that it's going to cost you $30 to produce a colour 500+ page manual. I do suspect, though, that the manual at $30 is a damn sight less than I'm going to find someone to do it.

We sit here in our comfy chairs and shout we wants. That's the nature of the supplying and the purchasing beasts.

That said, you should also try to understand that, as a company, you are in a far better position to get a manual printed a fair bit cheaper per unit than an individual is going to at their local printers. That is just fact. You say $30 to print a 500 page manual (roughly)...I reckon you could double that (roughly) for my local printers.

For me to print a 500 page manual, it's £5 for the ream of paper, probably around £10 in ink and it's A4 crap and has to be stored somewhere. $30 looks sweeter and sweeter.

I've just sent a pdf to a company near me to see how much it costs to print the manual. It's only a 50 page one with graphics and I've requested it on glossy A5. I'll get back to you...but I expect it's going to be around £10. Now if it's going to cost me £10 for a 50 page manual, then I'll defintiely take you up on your offer of $30....AND pay up front for it.

Dave. I've seen the work you people have put into this game. I've seen the dedication to testing and the drive you and your team have. I didn't buy HTTR 'cos this was round the corner...turns out it was more round the earth than the corner...but I am going to buy your game for all those reasons.

But if you can swing it that in some way or another I get a manual, then fan dabby dozy. You'll make my wife happy, you'll make bedtime better (I'm old - shut up!!) and I can have a great document to read. The cheaper you get it the better, but I would seriously like the option of a printed manual.

[JudgeDredd]

Just one other thing on the manual, Dave. I've just contacted a local printer who suggested a cost of £10 for the 200 page Combat Mission Afrika Korps manual in black and white.

Now one thing he did mention, which needs to be adderssed I think, is the manuals come in reader format (page 1 followed by page 2, 3 etc. However, he needs to have the manual in printer format e.g. last page next to 1st page etc so that he can print it out on A5 (I don't know if it's because I wanted it in A5...)...he said he could jiggle it about, but it would take sometime and significantly increase the cost.

So if you are not going to provide a manual, is it possible that the manual could be made available in printer format for those who would like to have it printed?

This is the only person I have approached regarding a printed manual, so I do not know how realistic this is or if anyone else has managed to get a manual printed on A5 and bound "like a manual" and had the problems he's saying he may have....

Thx

[Arjuna]

Billy,

First off the format we are providing is not A5. It's A4 wide by US Letter long. That way it will print on everyones paper, is big enough to handle a reasonable font size ( Times Roman 10pt on 12pt ) and allows us enough space to display readable screen dumps. I would not recommend A5.

Marc,

Could you please comment/advise on the page layout arangements for a print version. My understanding is that any printer worth his salt should be able to take a pdf arranged in consequitive spreads and print it. In other words there is no need to preconfigure it in 8 or 16 page layouts as in the old days. Is that your understanding too?

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
...I would not recommend A5.

Well that puts to bed the printed manual argument. I don't want an A4 manual!
There's no pleasing some people! [8|]

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
This is the only person I have approached regarding a printed manual, so I do not know how realistic this is or if anyone else has managed to get a manual printed on A5 and bound "like a manual" and had the problems he's saying he may have....

Hi,

FinePrint and probably some other virtual printer drivers allow you to print in "booklet" format - they basically re-position every page so you get 2 pages on each side of a single A4 even on non-duplex printers. Presto: an A5 sized manual. Great stuff, I use it all the time. A secretary with a stapler that can reach the center crease is also handy

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Tzar007]

Although it's always nice to get a printed material, I don't understand why people get so much worked up over this...

Dave said it: wargaming is a niche genre. This is not Madden, Halo or Warcraft. I know the videogame business, I have access to sales figures, and I have no trouble believing Panther probably just barely recoup their development costs - and that's if they are lucky. Why do you think it's only going to be available through direct download ? Because being in a distribution network for retail is expensive for such low sales product. Everybody takes his quote along the chain. And in any case, you don't get that much shelve space for wargames at your local EB Games (if any at all). So when every penny counts, providing the manual in pdf form makes sense.

Believe me, Panther develop these games because they are maniacs and we're all damn lucky enough that they are continuing the development of this engine and plan to do more still with such risky prospects of getting a return on investment. We're fortunate enough to get such a quality commitment, and hundreds of page of documentation in an era where more game companies cut corners and deliver skimpy documentation. That in itself should be enough the overlook the fact that manual comes in PDF format rather than printed.

Yes, I would also like to get a printed manual, but come on guys, give them a break [:)]

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

the manuals come in reader format (page 1 followed by page 2, 3 etc. However, he needs to have the manual in printer format e.g. last page next to 1st page etc so that he can print it out on A5 (I don't know if it's because I wanted it in A5...)...he said he could jiggle it about, but it would take sometime and significantly increase the cost.

I'm pretty sure that he needs that specific page setup for stapling/binding the stuff on the machines being at his disposal. As mentioned by someone else, most printers + print programs will be able to re-arrange stuff on the fly, these days.

Btw, Tzar007, looks like ppl are willing to chip in for an optional printed version in addition to the electronic one and I dunno why it shouldn't be discussed. [:)] If there are like 20 ppl only being hot for prints, well....than bad luck :p But if there's a fair amount of ppl......Maybe collect the number of requests and then decide whether a printed version will be released or not, imho.......let's say like a pre-order thingy.

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: Tzar007

Although it's always nice to get a printed material, I don't understand why people get so much worked up over this...

Dave said it: wargaming is a niche genre. This is not Madden, Halo or Warcraft. I know the videogame business, I have access to sales figures, and I have no trouble believing Panther probably just barely recoup their development costs - and that's if they are lucky. Why do you think it's only going to be available through direct download ? Because being in a distribution network for retail is expensive for such low sales product. Everybody takes his quote along the chain. And in any case, you don't get that much shelve space for wargames at your local EB Games (if any at all). So when every penny counts, providing the manual in pdf form makes sense.

Believe me, Panther develop these games because they are maniacs and we're all damn lucky enough that they are continuing the development of this engine and plan to do more still with such risky prospects of getting a return on investment. We're fortunate enough to get such a quality commitment, and hundreds of page of documentation in an era where more game companies cut corners and deliver skimpy documentation. That in itself should be enough the overlook the fact that manual comes in PDF format rather than printed.

Yes, I would also like to get a printed manual, but come on guys, give them a break [:)]

I'm not going over it again. Re-read my post. I think you'll find that I sympathise with their position, but should a printed manual be offered, I would like one.
End of...

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Could you please comment/advise on the page layout arangements for a print version. My understanding is that any printer worth his salt should be able to take a pdf arranged in consequitive spreads and print it. In other words there is no need to preconfigure it in 8 or 16 page layouts as in the old days. Is that your understanding too?

Exactly, even Kinkos can handle this [;)]

[Arjuna]

[:D]

thanks Marc.

[Bob M.]

There may be an opportunity here for an entrepeneur. When Ubisoft released a sim title "Lock-On" with the full manual on disk, they allowed a third party to print and sell the full manual. Perhaps Matrix would be open to such an arrangement. I'm sure that even a relatively limited run of 100 or so manuals would sell at whatever price the seller needed to make a small profit from the venture.

On the flip side, let's put things in perspective. I, too, would prefer to receive a three inch thick printed manual with COTA. But very few commercial games are coming with much in the way of manuals today. The price charged for an 'A' title is the same as proposed for COTA. And most of the titles don't interest me, and few hold my interest for very long. Yet based on my experience with HTTR, I am confident I will easily derive my money's worth of enjoyment from COTA even without a printed manual. Just my $0.02 worth.

Very Respectfully

Bob M.

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: Bob M.
...I am confident I will easily derive my money's worth of enjoyment from COTA even without a printed manual. Just my $0.02 worth.

Very Respectfully

Bob M.

Bob

I'm not suggesting it isn't worth the price tag, nor is anyone else I think.
I'm not suggesting that the quaility suffers because there is no manual.
I'm not suggesting that they can be bothered to provide a printed manual.

I'm merely asking for a printed manual. I've already stated I've been waiting enough for this title and I will buy it.

I was simply expressing my desire that a printed manual be supplied. If they choose to say No, then that's there perogative and I'm sure it will be made on solid business reasons.

I admire their business sense, I admire their games and I admire the effort to produce a polished product. The sale has been made.

But if they can find some way, chargeable, to produce a manual for those who would like one, at as low a cost as possible, then I would buy it.

[Agema]

My only issue with .pdf manuals is that it can be a bit of a fuss minimising the game into Windows if you want to check something. Mind you, my eyesight is pretty sturdy and I don't mind staring at a computer screen even if it's worth than paper.

Let's also be realistic. The manual will have a history of the campaign. It'll have the usual introductory niceties, technical support stuff, how to install the game and start it up, and so on. You don't need to print any of that as anyone clever enough to to have installed and started any game before isn't going to be tripped up by the basics; in the case of the history, read it at your leisure off the screen. That skims printing requirements right down immediately. For those of us who have played HTTR, there's even less need for other stuff, because we already know most of the game mechanics. Flick through the .pdf, find what you think you might need to peruse at more length, and print that. You might even be able to scale it to two pages per sheet of A4. I'd figure a player of the game precursors might only need a few dozen A4 sheets: they can be held them together with the miracles that are paperclips, staples, plastic wallets or ring folders.

[Willard]

Arjuna -

For what it is worth, a printed manual is a nice but unnecessary luxury. I prefer a better coded game than anything else.

If you need 10,000 units sold, may I suggest (a bit tongue-in-cheek) a PR campaign for this endeavor?
You should set up a counter on the COTA page that counts down units sold. Then we can watch the progress everyday. If everyone includes a sig link for every board we post on, perhaps we can start a grass roots sale campaign!!!
[:D]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
We need to sell 10,000 units just to recoup our costs. I doubt we will make that. That's the cold hard facts. This is a mugs game that only the foolish, crazy or obsessed persue. I don't think we're foolish but I'll leave it you to work out which of the other two applies in our case.[;)]