Sneer vs Raver , Banzaiiii!!!!

[Andy Mac]

This aint over Raver will be back the Allies are never truly out of WITP.

Sneer has done well and Raver got a little careless

This is far form over <gets the popcorn>

p.s. dont read to much into PZB killing off Hellcats in my game the pilots were fatigued at low level and the xp wasnt that high

Although the Jack and even Tony/Tojo are provign good opponents for the Hellcat its just Zekes and other zero family fighters that really struggle v Hellcats

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

This aint over Raver will be back the Allies are never truly out of WITP.

Sneer has done well and Raver got a little careless

This is far from over <gets the popcorn>

p.s. dont read to much into PZB killing off Hellcats in my game the pilots were fatigued at low level and the xp wasnt that high

Andy - "everyone" keeps on saying what you just said, but where are the AARs to show Japanese players getting wiped the way that Allied players keep on getting wiped?

"A Little Careless" usually takes the Allied player right out of the game. An Allied player has to play a "perfect" game against anyone but a total newbie, and we haven't seen much of that...

Again, congrats to Sneer for playing very close to "perfect" as the Japanese, and best of luck to you - I want to learn from your future successes! [:)]

Dave Baranyi

[Andy Mac]

Umm I think Im doing ok against PZB and that was after a fair number of disasters and he is a good player. (Could be a nasty ambush waiting for me though !!!)

The allies are never really out of it cant talk to much about plans in this thread operational security and all that but that Allies can come back.

Hell with no carriers Nomad fought right back through the solomons LBA is the key to the allied fight back IMO

Raver will be back I am sure

[ADavidB]

sooner or later allied will gather many ships again - i can't count on next opportunity
allied need only one decisive victory at sea - Japan needs 4-5 of them to be safe and each next battle will be more difficult

This is the interesting challenge for you. You did a great job of preparing for this confrontation and you exceeded most everyone's expectations. But now I think that you need to go "hunting" and you must stay in "hunter" mode. Allied ships sitting in the West Coast are not a threat, and if they can be intercepted piecemeal in the Eastern Pacific then you can keep Raver from massing enough strength to challenge you. But to do this you need to figure out a means to provide a few strong bases from which you can raid with impunity in the Eastern Pacific.

I don't feel that you can sit and await the next big Allied challenge - you may well defeat it again, but why take the chance? Instead, bring the challenge back to the Allies while they are reeling from this defeat. Stay on the offensive and there will never be an Allied comeback.

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi

[Andy Mac]

I agree with A David you need to keep on him CA's CL's and CV re spawn BB's dont and he will need them to attack later you need to finish them while you can and disrupt his LOC while he cannot interfere.

Its annoying as hell for the allies but the West Coast - Pearl route suddenly got very exposed

[Capt. Harlock]

Any talk of luck is ill-advised. When the basics are observed the outcome is often favourable. Many then label that as "lucky" unaware of all of the basics which had to be fulfilled in order to "get lucky".

Ill-advised? I call on both Sneer and Raver. If the Japanese forces had been spotted a day earlier, and Raver had gotten in an airstrike or two to achieve air superiority, this encounter could have gone very much the other way. The Allies had considerably more surface firepower in the area. Under an air umbrella the Japanese surface forces could have been essentially eliminated.

[Sneer]

the only chance to stand against battle ready 750+ planes from KB was perfect ready allied battlegroup , nothing else
i think Raver was lucky as
1. my division did not move together so he could attack my weakest part - in normal condition i would not loose Zuiho i think
2. i could not attack Essex group for 2 days and meanwhile
a) he attacked my damaged ships
b) i lost 40+ kates attacking BBs - otherwise Hornet and Essex would be sunk now

[ADavidB]

"the only chance to stand against battle ready 750+ planes from KB was perfect ready allied battlegroup"
&nbsp;
Which does raise an interesting question - how does one attack a battle-ready 750+ plane KB on its own grounds?
&nbsp;
I can see how to do it if one has LBA support, but otherwise that implies a need for a dozen Essex-class carriers with Hellcats and well-trained crews for a deliberate head-on-head confrontation.
&nbsp;
You've given me a lot to think about here.
&nbsp;
Thanks -
&nbsp;
Dave Baranyi

[veji1]

well what we can get from this battle is not that allied cannot attack before late 43, just that, as they did in real life, they can attack in LBA areas early, where CVs + LBA is good enough to fight KB, but they cannot go island hopping in the middle of the pacific, if they don't know the whereabouts of KB, or haven't already weakened it significantly...

Raver's operation was very bold, not in the sense that it couldn't be executed, but in the sense that doing it facing the whole KB was very risky indeed...

But I really think we shouldn't conclude that "this proves allies should hide till mid 43"... Because it doesn't, it just proves that you cannot adventure your self in the ocean without having established naval air control before...

But for example, had Raver planned a similar operation in Timor or Solomons, or Aleutians, the issue would have been very different...

And one last thing, as Sneer puts it, he spent lots of time nursing his forces and letting Raver get confortable... had the last 6 months of war been more active, he would have been more cautious for sure...

Anyway, I can't wait for the rest of the story...

[jumper]

It is questionable what would happen if Raver was ready and his fleet was in battle formation. His fleets were divided and arrived in battle one by one just to be toasted. Sneers forces were ready (with only one exception for what the fleet paid the price).
I would say that at this stage of war the fleets are nearly equeal and chances are 1:1. That´s what makes this victory so sweet and interesting. Prepared&nbsp;IJN surprised unprepared&nbsp; and scattered enemy (with a bit of luck - the chances that catalinas will miss to spot the whole IJN are pretty low) and that´s what decided the whole battle IMO.
There was a luck on Sneers side, but he was there with the&nbsp;BIG hammer to&nbsp;grab offered chance.
&nbsp;

[Sneer]

weather was mixed and it is partially answer for this discussion
i often used thunderstorms/rains to appear close to enemy bases and i have been never cought by allied&nbsp; /i was twice at palmyra -Johnson area/ - no matter how many patrol planes were used - i was even 3 weeks before the battle 10 hexes from Palmyra with my whole fleet and was not spotted !!!!
the trick is to crawl with cruise speed to avoid sys dmg and refuel often and wait - if weather is good you can sprint to enemy base
max search of catalina is 13 - max speed of fleet carrier is 10 so you can jump in from range 14 to range 4 and surprise enemy easily
that's why Raver spotted me when i entered this magic circle and not sooner - there was no patrol plane in position to find my fleet earlier - i moved 7 hexes and ended 7-8 hexes from pago-pago when i was discovered
and remember that at range 10-13 search is often poor with mixed weather
best example are my emilys at canton isl which did not spot enemy fleet movement and and big invasion fleet at&nbsp;Pago - only dedicated sub's glen found that sth is happening there / remember that route of enemy's TF was 7-8 from canton !!! - they were not spotted - so i'm not surprised catalinas were also of little use
forget about patrol planes at ranges higher than 10 - they will spot in clear weather from time to time but will have problems in worse conditions
that's why importarnt areas are patroled by nells/betties
IRL many B17 were used to naval search instead of hammering enemy bases - if allied decides for lower amount of search planes their results are poorer
also remember that many subs were used defensively only to increase chances to spot enemy and scouting was certainly high in their mission roster
i don't understand that sth MUST be spotted - within 3-5 hexes it is partially true, &nbsp;but area is squere function of distance so chances are diminishing fast
i did not spotted Hornet and Essex on day 5th even if i feel i was in position to strike - do i make a problem of this ?
heavy damaged ships ( 3 torps to each) shouldn't be able to do more than 4 hexes per turn - so i should have them in normal range - nothing was spotted even if i had sth like 30 float planes used

it is not luck - it is weather and basic mathematics

[jumper]

well, that´s why I feel there was a luck on your side. I´m the one who is always spotted even in the middle of mother of all thunderstorms and 13hexes away from single&nbsp;catalina in the whole area [:)]&nbsp;And needless to say- my own naval recon sucks..
I didn´t&nbsp;say you had&nbsp;to be spotted. Only that you might be. From you response I see you made everything you could do to lower&nbsp;his chance - but still there was some.. It is always basic mathematics, but first thing dying in the battle is battle plan.
Please don´t&nbsp;understand me wrong and take no offence - It was nice, pure and deserved victory and I enjoyed a lot to see it.
&nbsp;
&nbsp;

[Sneer]

not a problem Jumper and certainly no offence
i wanted only to show that
1. players don't use b17 historically so their search ability is lower - almost always B17 are kept together and&nbsp;in permanent attack mode
2. there is good way of fooling catalinas - they will always spot you&nbsp;when too late - when you are facing whole KB 4 hexes from your base and see your ships hit by torps - range of catalinas is too low to secure frontline bases - emilys are worth their weight in gold
3. players rarely try to play with enemy search abilities - and this part of play is my favourite one - to be in the place nobody wanted me to see

if sb looses one of central pacific atolls his search line is broken so extreme cautious should be taken&nbsp; as enemy can enter deep ocean without warning
allied won midway because they surprised their enemies- search ability was on their side

[Sneer]

less and less to hunt - i'm quite low on sorties on smaller carriers
tonight mighty Essex was reported sunk at Pago Pago [&o][&o][&o]
and Nevada was hunted in the morning
&nbsp;
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/28/43

Day Air attack on TF at 107,90
&nbsp;
Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 10
D3A Val x 60
A6M3a Zero x 57
B5N Kate x 28
&nbsp;
No Japanese losses
&nbsp;
Allied Ships
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 2,&nbsp; on fire,&nbsp; heavy damage
&nbsp;
Aircraft Attacking:
&nbsp;4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
&nbsp;8 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
&nbsp;3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
&nbsp;8 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
&nbsp;3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
&nbsp;2 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
&nbsp;4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
&nbsp;3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
&nbsp;3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
&nbsp;1 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
&nbsp;8 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
&nbsp;1 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
&nbsp;1 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
&nbsp;2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
&nbsp;2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
&nbsp;9 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
&nbsp;9 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
&nbsp;9 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
&nbsp;4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
&nbsp;4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 107,90
&nbsp;
Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 2
B5N Kate x 2
&nbsp;
No Japanese losses
&nbsp;
Allied Ships
BB Nevada,&nbsp; on fire,&nbsp; heavy damage
&nbsp;
Aircraft Attacking:
&nbsp;2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 107,90
&nbsp;
Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 7
A6M3a Zero x 6
B5N Kate x 12
&nbsp;
No Japanese losses
&nbsp;
Allied Ships
BB Nevada,&nbsp; on fire,&nbsp; heavy damage
&nbsp;
Aircraft Attacking:
&nbsp;7 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
&nbsp;4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
&nbsp;4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
&nbsp;4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 107,90
&nbsp;
Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 5
A6M3a Zero x 6
B5N Kate x 3
&nbsp;
No Japanese losses
&nbsp;
Allied Ships
BB Nevada,&nbsp; on fire,&nbsp; heavy damage
&nbsp;
Aircraft Attacking:
&nbsp;3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
&nbsp;5 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
&nbsp;

[veji1]

waowww !!!

that's 5 CVs, so at least one of them won't respawn iirc... So that is one CV sunk for good...

kudos...

[Sneer]

at first look Hornet was more damaged so maybe we will wait for 6th kill ???

[veji1]

It seems you sank the Essex with 3 torps only ... Pretty good performance... OR bad, depending on the point of view...

[Sneer]

yes - i'm surprised too -i did not follow animations ( will do it tomorrow) but there must be ammo/and/or/ fuel explosion
my search units show CA and CV in location of Nevada sinking
i will stay to check it - my bet is that i see CVE + DD
I think Palmyra is full of enemy planes
but level bombers don't like flying unescorted against heavy cap and I do my best to keep 6-7 hex distance
tomorrow i plan to retire from palmyra
sad news - it is very bad with Kongo flooding goes up every day - i fear i will loose her

[veji1]

ah well Kongos are really fragile ships... It is the main problem with them...

[Sneer]

not really a BB
I find that Nagatos can fight on par with any slow US BB , Yamato can fight on par with any fast and modern&nbsp;US BB but 4 older dreadnoughts are slightly weak in terms of durability and armor, Kongos are .... better armed bigger&nbsp;cruisers and they shouldn't be used in surface combat too often. I could make some adjustments and send there Musashi and 2 Nagatos ..... too late
i needed speed not strenght that night