New ideas on A2A in the next patch

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spence
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RE: New ideas on A2A in the next patch

Post by spence »

A- Although the ordnance department claimed that the torpedoes could be dropped at an altitude of 500-metres, we found by experience that only 10 per cent would run properly at 200 meters and 50 per cent at 100 meters. Consequently, an effort was made to drop at from 20-30 meters. Since the aircraft torpedo was dropped at short range the low altitude afforded protection because of depressing limit of AA guns. Pilots were instructed to attempt to drop the torpedo in such a manner that it struck the ship immediately after it levelled off at set depth. Of course conditions varied but a standard drop was made from a range of 600 to 400 meters, at a speed of 160-170 knots and at altitude of from 20 to 50 meters. The aircraft torpedo was armed immediately after striking the water. It weighed 800 Kg and had a 145 Kg warhead. The above tactics were used by our carrier planes against your LEXINGTON. After the battle of the CORAL SEA the size of the warhead was increased to 220Kg.

THE SPEAKER IS CAPTAIN SONOKAWA KAMEO, CO OF THE GENZAN AIR GROUP THAT ATTACKED PoW AND REPULSE (from Force Z survivors website)

Interesting comment re the Type 91s reliability if dropped according to specs.
Sounds sorta like BUWEAPS assertions re American torps doesn't it. The Type 91 was I am sure a better weapon than the Mk XIII but maybe not so wonderful as is commonly perceived.

There are a bunch of photos around showing Bettys making torpedo attacks from practically the same altitude as the I-19 (and same for Kates). The users wouldn't have done that if they didn't have to (since even the tiniest misapplication of controls could land you in the water).
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ChezDaJez
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RE: New ideas on A2A in the next patch

Post by ChezDaJez »

It is Polish - and rather famous. I have to look it up - but it is fairly good for things like observation and photography. It maneuvers rather better than a helicopter. It is very slow - it does not actually use a runway - it takes off and lands on the apron - on a TINY fraction of the apron - 2 to 4 meters of it. They have one running at the Aviation Museum at Tillimook - next to the airship hanger. I can look it up if you like.

The only Polish designed/built aircraft at Tillamook is the PZL-104 Wilga. The Wilga is a small, STOL aircraft able to operate from unimproved fields but it cannot do what you have said it can. It cannot maintain a ten-meter turn radius nor can it takeoff in only 2-4 meters of ground run. That would require the aircraft to achieve a T/O speed of 60mph in that distance. To do so would require an acceleration rate equal to or greater than a carrier cat shot.

PZL-104 Wilga flying impressions

A brief synopsis of its design:

Engine: 300hp radial
Gross Weight: 3307lbs
Wingspan: 37 feet
Length: 28 feet

(PZL-104MA) From PZL website:
Max Speed: 136 kts
Cruise Speed: 115kts
Stall Speed: 55kts clean
Stall Speed: 36kts w/ flaps and slats
Takeoff Roll: 675 ft
Landing Roll: 681 feet
Rate of Climb: 1000 fpm
Ceiling: 12000 ft

(PZL-104)
Engine: 260hp radial
Gross Weight: 2866lbs
Wingspan: 36 feet
Length: 26 feet

Max Speed: 133 kts
Cruise Speed: 100kts
Stall Speed: 55kts clean
Stall Speed: 43kts w/ flaps
Takeoff Roll: 365 ft
Landing Roll: 650 feet
Rate of Climb: 925 fpm
Ceiling: 12000 ft

Other sites indicate a maximum sustained turning radius of 285 ft.

CID, you often present a very interesting viewpoint and I don't doubt your analysis on many issues, especially relating to China. But its cases like this that lead me to question just how much of your data is from research and how much is speculation.

Just like your assertion of of an aviator being able to routinely view aircraft at ranges up to 100nm. I'm sorry, it can't be done without strong magnifying visual aids and even then the aircraft's vibration will prevent it even with gyro stabilized equipment. And I'm not saying this off the top of my head, I have actual experience (lots of it) conducting visual searches.

I also don't believe you can routinely view first magnitude stars in daylight except under best of conditions. Most astronomers agree that Sirius can be seen above 50 degrees latitude for approximately 2 hours after sunrise and 2 hours before sunset unaided. It is the brightest first magnitude star at -0.3. Of course, astronomers have the advantage of knowing exactly where the star should be in the sky. Aviators on the other hand don't often get to know where the enemy will appear. And there is a huge difference between an astronomer on the ground doing it and an aviator in a vibrating aircraft with coral dust-scarred canopies doing it in the tropics while attempting to maintain formation.

I'm not picking on you, CID. Some of what you bring to the forum is very interesting. But a lot of what you say consists of "I know someone who..." A court of law would call that hearsay and as such, inadmissable.

Chez
Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
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spence
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RE: New ideas on A2A in the next patch

Post by spence »

Given the fact that the majority of the quoted results come from the attack on Shoho, which at maximum had a 10 Zero CAP against a 93 plane strike, has slowed down beause of a turn to get to downwind, plus recieved some 10+ bomb hits 10 minutes before the TBDs even started their attack. Well, as we all know these were the condotions of ANY carrier battle in 42. Do I need to say more?

Actually now I do think you need to say more! Exactly what conditions must prevail for a torpedo attack to count?

Perhaps they need to be combat drops against the Chinese Navy. Or attack runs on moored ships at the very start of a surprise attack. Allied Players are just supposed to accept that all IJN Kate/Nell/Betty drivers had 75-95 experience in their primary mission (gamewise) becuase of those historical examples of their prowess? Yeah right!![:-]
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ChezDaJez
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RE: New ideas on A2A in the next patch

Post by ChezDaJez »

There is something to Spence's logic: the KB in fact NEVER operated AS A UNIT after the first strike of the war. And ONLY as a unit did it have clear superiority over the USN carriers in the theater (wether together or not). Sending in 1/3 of the KB to Coral Sea was a violation of the principle of concentration - and allowed a battle at 1:1 odds - which makes even outcomes something to be expected. And when the KB WAS together the USN was not smart enough to run - it just also was not smart enough to find the enemy. So the KB didn't even intimidate the one time it should have. But forgive me for thinking it WOULD have won ANY time it was together - in 1941 or 1942.

Depends on what you mean as a unit. If you mean all 6 carriers, no. But KB (minus Kaga) conducted the March 42 Ceylon raids. It also conducted the February 42 Darwin and Rabaul raids minus Zuikaku and Shokaku.

So they did routinely operate as a unit of at least 4 carriers right up to Midway, Coral Sea being the only exception.

As far as being able to take on the US carriers at 1:1 odds early in the war and win, I think they had a better than even chance of doing so. I base this on the US carrier CAP and AA performance in fleet defense and air strike organization during the Marshall Islands raids in Feb 42. Both areas had major faults.

The Wildcats had as yet not encountered the Zero in combat and didn't know how to fight it. In addition, the F4F-3 and 3a's hadn't been fitted with armor or self-sealing tanks. Maintenance crews fashioned some ad hoc armor and installed it the evening before the battle. The Wlidcats also had major gun jam problems. Many were reduced to just 1-2 operable guns before even firing them due to flight maneuvering. Their performance against the A5M Claude was hardly confidence instilling.

CAP and AA defense were also woefully inadequate. 5 G3M Nells attacked Enterprise with bombs. CAP attempted to intercept at 15 miles out but failed due to poor fighter direction and radio discipline. All 5 Nells launched their bombs from 1500 feet, luckily for Enterprsie they were only 60kg bombs. As it was, one bomb struck the sea close enough to cause damage and kill one man. One Nell had been damaged bad enough by AA fire that it attempted a suicide dive on Enterprise and nearly succeded. Its wing clipped the tail of a SBD. The Nell's wing then came off, spreading gasoline over the deck and island. The wing landed in the starboard catwalk. The other 4 Nells returned to base virtually undamaged. 2 of them later returned in another attack on Enterprise. AA fire damaged one of them and McClusky shot down one, but not before both had dropped their bombs (missed).

Halsey was fit to be tied and instituted many of the lessons learned from this action. As a result, Wildcat armor and self sealing tank installation was emphasized and CAP and AA efficiency greatly increased. By the time of Coral Sea, the US had made many improvements that would stand them in good stead.

So, personally I think the US would have come off second best in an early war fight against an equal number of Japanese CVs, especially if Akagi, Kaga, Soryu or Hiryu were the opponents. Against Zuikaku or Shokaku, the result may be closer due to their relative inexperience. Against the full might of KB, there is no doubt in my mind that the US would have needed some new carriers. That is not to say that the Japanese would have had everything their way. I have no doubt that the US would have inflicted significant damage but the result should be a clear Japanese victory.

Chez
Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
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Ursa MAior
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RE: New ideas on A2A in the next patch

Post by Ursa MAior »

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior
ORIGINAL: spence
Enterprise vs the KB on December 8+ would have resulted in Enterprise sunk if the Japanese detected her. If she got in a first strike my guess would be that some of her bombers would have gotten through the CAP and likely damaged a carrier or two.

And we all know that a Sherman could easily destroy a Tiger without any problem if...........

Oh, please...it is a well known fact that Shermans needed a 4-1 edge to defeat anything mildly better. What does your comment have to do with established historical fact regarding the 4 CV battles of '42? Aside from trying to belittle the arguement in favour of maintaining unwarranted design driven advantages perhaps. Remember, history is not what we've been used to playing in GG designed games...he has a whack of personal and unwarranted assumptions/bias based on what I'd suspect is a youthful interest in the Pacific War that should have been eliminated over twenty years of gaming evolution and further study but have not. Frustrating but true.

I was cynical Ron. It was either spence or mdiehl who shared this "fact" with us in either the zero bonus or in the f4f vs zero thread.
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RE: New ideas on A2A in the next patch

Post by Ursa MAior »

ORIGINAL: spence
Given the fact that the majority of the quoted results come from the attack on Shoho, which at maximum had a 10 Zero CAP against a 93 plane strike, has slowed down beause of a turn to get to downwind, plus recieved some 10+ bomb hits 10 minutes before the TBDs even started their attack. Well, as we all know these were the condotions of ANY carrier battle in 42. Do I need to say more?

Actually now I do think you need to say more! Exactly what conditions must prevail for a torpedo attack to count?

Perhaps they need to be combat drops against the Chinese Navy. Or attack runs on moored ships at the very start of a surprise attack. Allied Players are just supposed to accept that all IJN Kate/Nell/Betty drivers had 75-95 experience in their primary mission (gamewise) becuase of those historical examples of their prowess? Yeah right!![:-]

Well spence to create a statistically reliable database you must not leave out other circumstances of calculation, which influence the result. So yes if we talk about Kate + Type 91 succes ratio, we have to count PH, and other instances where they were used. But given that we all know you too well, I leave you be. As they say in my country it is as pointless to argue with you as it is to try to move peas with a fork.
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ChezDaJez
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RE: New ideas on A2A in the next patch

Post by ChezDaJez »

Not that I don't believe that torpedos were used by Ryujo in the IO but it's curious that they were not used when hunting warships (Exeter, Encounter, Pope and presumably the other survivors) in the Java Sea after the Battle of the Java Sea. (The Kates that attacked Pope did so with bombs).

I too find it curious that KB used primarily bombs aginst the British and Dutch warships in the IO and the Java Sea. Though with a 57% hit rate vs a basically undefended Hermes (approx 40 of 70 bombs hit) and the smothering of Cornwall and Dorsetshire with bombs, its hard to argue against success. I have not been able to determine if they even used their Kates against the warships. I know they used them to attack ground installations but why they were held back from antiship missions, I don't know.

Ryujo is the only carrier that I know for sure employed torpedoes during these raids. Some sources indicate she sank 23 ships but I doubt it. At least 2 merchants were sunk by torpedo.

Anyways,

Chez
Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
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spence
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RE: New ideas on A2A in the next patch

Post by spence »

Well spence to create a statistically reliable database you must not leave out other circumstances of calculation, which influence the result. So yes if we talk about Kate + Type 91 succes ratio, we have to count PH, and other instances where they were used. But given that we all know you too well, I leave you be. As they say in my country it is as pointless to argue with you as it is to try to move peas with a fork.

Let me get this straight. We must count PH (and the torpedo attacks against the Chinese Navy naturally[:)]) when judging the Kate+Type 91 but not count the torpedoing of the Shoho by TBDs and Mk XIIIs when making a comparision of the two types. For a statistically reliable database that is. OK, that's reasonable.[&:]
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RE: New ideas on A2A in the next patch

Post by spence »

Ryujo is the only carrier that I know for sure employed torpedoes during these raids. Some sources indicate she sank 23 ships but I doubt it. At least 2 merchants were sunk by torpedo

Presumably you don't know how many launches in the strikes that accomplished this.

I remember reading somewhere that the 2 CAs were hit with dive bombers only because the Kates had been loading up with bombs for a land strike and the Japanese were afraid the CAs would get away if they waited for the weapons and mountings to be changed on the Kates (Shattered Sword goes into this somewhat - not that it is difficult, just time consuming - and aggravated by having only one weapons cart/chutai to lug the bombs and torpedos back and forth to the magasine lift thus multiplying the time per bomber by 6 for each chutai).
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ChezDaJez
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RE: New ideas on A2A in the next patch

Post by ChezDaJez »

Presumably you don't know how many launches in the strikes that accomplished this.

No, I don't. 2 ships sunk equal at least 2 hits but I haven't been able to determine how many Kates were used and how many actually launched.

The Ceylon raids have never been as thoroughly examined on the same scale as the Pacific battles. With the exception of the eastern front, most US libraries that I have access to don't carry a lot of material on engagements where the US wasn't a direct participant.

Your statement indicating that the Kates were being ready for a land strike sounds quite reasonable. Its funny that the Japanese who so greatly revered and feared the torpedo didn't use it to any great extent in the IO.

Chez
Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
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RE: New ideas on A2A in the next patch

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez
It is Polish - and rather famous. I have to look it up - but it is fairly good for things like observation and photography. It maneuvers rather better than a helicopter. It is very slow - it does not actually use a runway - it takes off and lands on the apron - on a TINY fraction of the apron - 2 to 4 meters of it. They have one running at the Aviation Museum at Tillimook - next to the airship hanger. I can look it up if you like.

The only Polish designed/built aircraft at Tillamook is the PZL-104 Wilga. The Wilga is a small, STOL aircraft able to operate from unimproved fields but it cannot do what you have said it can. It cannot maintain a ten-meter turn radius nor can it takeoff in only 2-4 meters of ground run. That would require the aircraft to achieve a T/O speed of 60mph in that distance. To do so would require an acceleration rate equal to or greater than a carrier cat shot.

PZL-104 Wilga flying impressions

A brief synopsis of its design:

Engine: 300hp radial
Gross Weight: 3307lbs
Wingspan: 37 feet
Length: 28 feet

(PZL-104MA) From PZL website:
Max Speed: 136 kts
Cruise Speed: 115kts
Stall Speed: 55kts clean
Stall Speed: 36kts w/ flaps and slats
Takeoff Roll: 675 ft
Landing Roll: 681 feet
Rate of Climb: 1000 fpm
Ceiling: 12000 ft

(PZL-104)
Engine: 260hp radial
Gross Weight: 2866lbs
Wingspan: 36 feet
Length: 26 feet

Max Speed: 133 kts
Cruise Speed: 100kts
Stall Speed: 55kts clean
Stall Speed: 43kts w/ flaps
Takeoff Roll: 365 ft
Landing Roll: 650 feet
Rate of Climb: 925 fpm
Ceiling: 12000 ft

Other sites indicate a maximum sustained turning radius of 285 ft.

CID, you often present a very interesting viewpoint and I don't doubt your analysis on many issues, especially relating to China. But its cases like this that lead me to question just how much of your data is from research and how much is speculation.

Just like your assertion of of an aviator being able to routinely view aircraft at ranges up to 100nm. I'm sorry, it can't be done without strong magnifying visual aids and even then the aircraft's vibration will prevent it even with gyro stabilized equipment. And I'm not saying this off the top of my head, I have actual experience (lots of it) conducting visual searches.

I also don't believe you can routinely view first magnitude stars in daylight except under best of conditions. Most astronomers agree that Sirius can be seen above 50 degrees latitude for approximately 2 hours after sunrise and 2 hours before sunset unaided. It is the brightest first magnitude star at -0.3. Of course, astronomers have the advantage of knowing exactly where the star should be in the sky. Aviators on the other hand don't often get to know where the enemy will appear. And there is a huge difference between an astronomer on the ground doing it and an aviator in a vibrating aircraft with coral dust-scarred canopies doing it in the tropics while attempting to maintain formation.

I'm not picking on you, CID. Some of what you bring to the forum is very interesting. But a lot of what you say consists of "I know someone who..." A court of law would call that hearsay and as such, inadmissable.

Chez

Actually the first thing that came to mind when I heard it was "Polish" was Big Bubbinksi. An An-2 Colt. Not Polish, but Russian. It saw, like most Soviet designs, service in Poland.

Big Bubbinski was a performer at the NAS Oceana Airshow in 1997, right after I was commissioned. I worked the Airshow and Big B was to perform at the pre-show in the morning. The stunt was that a guy on a road bike (10-speed bicycle, not a crotch rocket) was going to race Big B on the Runway.

I new the chief who was to ride the bike and he was an amateur triathalon competitor. Still I had to see it to believe it. It was close, but by show center Big B had in fact flown slow enough to lose to a guy on a bike...

Here is a pic of an AN-2

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Ursa MAior
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RE: New ideas on A2A in the next patch

Post by Ursa MAior »

spence
Even though you are a native speaker -as opposed to me-, you seem to have problems with the understnding of simple english text. But these were really the last characters I spent (ie wasted) on you.
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spence
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RE: New ideas on A2A in the next patch

Post by spence »

I listed every attack by either side about which I could find data (starting with the attacks on warships underway but ultimately including PH in the list).

To suggest that an attack against an alerted warship underway should be discounted as irrelevant and in the next breath suggest that a surprise attack on moored ships should be counted is the height of hypocrisy.
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RE: New ideas on A2A in the next patch

Post by mdiehl »

This concept - we have no records means nothing happened - is an assumption - and not a reasonable one either.

I agree. At the same time, just because the records were all destroyed does not mean we can assume that every wild assed claim by Sakai, or Fuchida, or whomever, is necessarily "good" information by virtue of being the only information from the power. Fuchida's book about Midway, for exaample, has been for western scholars the definitive treatment of the battle until Parshall and Tulley's book. What Japanese sources are available make Fuchida out to be a self-serving liar -- the ultimate fanboy whitewashing the Japanese navy's record to make them seem the victims of fate. Sakai's account (Zero Pilot) has also been demonstrated false on numerous occasions, as have late war accounts of single Japanese pilots downing numerous F6Fs in a single mission. All are now known to be false.

Spence's torpedo analysis is probably incomplete but at least he's doing the sort of "Well, what really happened?" analyses that need to be done to improve the history (or at least games that purport to be about things that may reasonably construed to logically follow from ahistorical choices). His "opposition" vis the torpedo debate remains wedded to unsubstantiated assertions and smary rhetoric as a form of rebuttal.

The truth is that most shots fired as torpedoes at most *combat* vessels missed when they were deplpoyed by aircraft or surface combat vessels. The only ships with decent torpedo *hit* rates were submarines (although the US early war dud rate obviated that considerably).

For example the mean IJN Type 93 hit rate was, statistically speaking, zero percent hits, as were the median and the mode. In a night surface action at ranges less than 9,000 yards the mean hit rate was about 12%. By 1943 the USN was doing as well with their slower, shorter-ranged torpedoes (largely because radar gave USN ships bearing, range, and speed, before their victims were being shot at). But if you really wanted to *regularly* hit the target at which you shot, you had to be less than 2000 yards from the target and the erstwhile victim had to be unaware that they were probably being engaged. The only ships really capable of achieving that sort of success were submarines.
Think about it: if a torpedo attack at sea is successful - you might not even hear about it at all.

A submarine torpedo attack at night ... maybe. Otherwise no. Any aerial attack occurring against a radar bearing USN ship would have been reported by radio. It's not logical or reasonable to assume that there is some statistically significant body of "successful Japanese aerial torpedo attacks against combat vessels." The overwhelming preponderance of "missing, presumed lost" ships were Japanese ships, and most of the Allied and Japanese ships so lost were submarines. There are a very very few notable exceptions in surfaqce combat, but not enough to warrant much skepticism over Spence's conclusions.

If you want to refute his argument you'll have to do something both useful and substantive and add to the database using credible sources, rather than attempting a sort of rebuttal by rumour.
Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?
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RE: New ideas on A2A in the next patch

Post by mdiehl »

As far as being able to take on the US carriers at 1:1 odds early in the war and win, I think they had a better than even chance of doing so. I base this on the US carrier CAP and AA performance in fleet defense and air strike organization during the Marshall Islands raids in Feb 42. Both areas had major faults.

Sure if you mine the data for facts that support you case and ingonre the ones that don't your conclusion might be supportable. But the facts remain that Japanese CAP and AAA performance was in *every* engagement even inferior to the USN Marshalls raid. And Japanese plane handling was demonstrably inferior to USN plane handling in part because of poor Japanese CV design (stacked hangar decks) and inferior doctrine (in-hangar armament only). Apparently, having lots of hastily-swapped out ordnance lying around was common for the IJN, since the same event (tortuously slow change over from anti-ship to land attack ordnance with unprotected hasty stowage of anti-ship ordnance) occurred in the Indian Ocean raids as well.

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?
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RE: New ideas on A2A in the next patch

Post by mdiehl »

But these were really the last characters I spent (ie wasted) on you.

You keep promising to stop trying to rebut your betters with your usual ad hominem scree and yet you keep returning. Either you do not understand your own feeble effort at English or you are just really bad at keeping promises.
Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?
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RE: New ideas on A2A in the next patch

Post by Ron Saueracker »

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior



And we all know that a Sherman could easily destroy a Tiger without any problem if...........

Oh, please...it is a well known fact that Shermans needed a 4-1 edge to defeat anything mildly better. What does your comment have to do with established historical fact regarding the 4 CV battles of '42? Aside from trying to belittle the arguement in favour of maintaining unwarranted design driven advantages perhaps. Remember, history is not what we've been used to playing in GG designed games...he has a whack of personal and unwarranted assumptions/bias based on what I'd suspect is a youthful interest in the Pacific War that should have been eliminated over twenty years of gaming evolution and further study but have not. Frustrating but true.

I was cynical Ron. It was either spence or mdiehl who shared this "fact" with us in either the zero bonus or in the f4f vs zero thread.

Apologies for being the resident whipping boy who simply wants a decent historical game as advertised. So...you with the guys who want reasonable (historical) limits or what? You sound like you do. I'm no AFB or JFB or what have you.
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RE: New ideas on A2A in the next patch

Post by spence »

I'm gonna take a couple of easy ones for now re torpedo attacks:

PEARL HARBOR

40 Torpedo Armed Kates (presumably there were no mechanical failures and all launched their torpedos) - 21 HITS (somewhere or other it's posted how many on what ship) -

Target Speed = 0
CAP Strength = None
AA Strength = Fairly weak though WitP doesn't really allow us to judge how weak

52.5% HITS (Seems impressive to me compared to every other attack by anyone ever - never been a torpedo plane driver but sorta wonder how you miss when you're shooting at something 700 ft long that's not moving - if the number of misses is "excusable" because of some torpedo failure is really the most important question - doubt that there's an answer out there... but maybe??)
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RE: New ideas on A2A in the next patch

Post by spence »

THE ATTACK ON FORCE Z

34 HIGH LEVEL BOMBERS AND 56 TORPEDO PLANES - ACCORDING TO POST WAR DIVE REPORTS ON THE WRECKS 6 TORPEDO HITS ON PRINCE OF WALES AND 4-5 ON REPULSE.

INITIAL TARGET SPEED = 20+ KTS
CAP STRENGTH = 0
FLAK STRENGTH = 1549 WitP Flak rating (if I got the DD escort right) - 4 bombers shot down (unknown if before or after launch or even if they were HL or Torpedo Bombers)

ASSUME 11 HITS FOR 52 LAUNCHES = 21% hits





spence
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:56 am
Location: Vancouver, Washington

RE: New ideas on A2A in the next patch

Post by spence »

BATTLE OF THE CORAL SEA

12-14 BETTYS ATTACK ADMIRAL CRACE'S CRUISER/DESTROYER FORCE WITH TORPEDOS

INITIAL SPEED = 20+ KTS
CAP STRENGTH = NONE
FLAK STRENGTH = 1078 WitP combined

0 HITS = 0%

NOTE: THE RAID WAS LARGER AND SPLIT BETWEEN HIGH LEVEL AND TORPEDO BOMBERS, MUCH LIKE THE ATTACK ON FORCE Z. I HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO DETERMINE HOW MANY OF THE BOMBERS WERE HIGH LEVEL AND HOW MANY WERE TORPEDO BOMBERS. I USED THE NUMBERS 12-14 BECAUSE BRADY POSTED THAT AS AN EXAMPLE OF AN ATTACK THAT I HAD NOT MADE A POST ABOUT.
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