Modifications to MWiF China Map portion

[Froonp]

The North.

[Froonp]

The Coast

[Froonp]

The South

[Froonp]

And the southeast, nothing to comment here, nothing new, just for the beauty.

[wosung]

Wow,

this China map is really getting good shape. Beside of that I like the way you handle the disussion and the voting. Thank you.

Now what about the terrain between Kweilin and  Hainan? Are these Yunkai dashan big mountains well represented by the lone forest hex south of Pearl river?

What do you think Froonp? what about the others and says google earth?

Sometimes I'd wish one or the other mountain hex to be replaced by forest, just for varity.

But then I think about common Chinese enviromental habits.  Transform all the forests to chopsticks and use the rest of the wood for cooking.  [:D] 

Really not ment as an offense: In the late Twenties  Sun Yat-sen University in Canton began to experiment with reforesting in Kwangrung province.

BTW: With the new interface for posting I just get  an empty window, when I want to preview my post. Using Mozilla firefox.

Regards

[wosung]

Which leads me to the question:

Is there  a "hard" definition in WIF for mountain, forest, desert and city hexes??

Like: mountains, which probably is the easiest definable hex type, must have a height of at least 1000 metres??

Regards

[Froonp]

Is there  a "hard" definition in WIF for mountain, forest, desert and city hexes??

To be on the WiF map cities normaly need to have 100,000 inhabitants.
 
I know little about the rest, except that the terrain represented in a WiF hex is the terrain the most present in the actual area.

[Froonp]

Now what about the terrain between Kweilin and  Hainan? Are these Yunkai dashan big mountains well represented by the lone forest hex south of Pearl river?

What do you think Froonp? what about the others and says google earth?

Aren't the Yunkai Dashan already represented by the terrain between Nanning & Kweiling ? Maybe the forest hex represent forested foothills ?

[YohanTM2]

Froonp,

Just wanted to commend you on the great work. I look forward to battling over this terrain.

Rob

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Excellent progress in just 5 days.  Well done!

[Incy]

ORIGINAL: wosung

Thanks for the recommendation. You should just post your feedback/suggestions, because Google earth sure will help us to make a better China map. Do they also have historical seizes for cities??

 
OK, here goes:
-Ningsia (and the hex south of it?) should not be desert, but clear or forest
-Tianshui shou have mountains to the southeast, maybe also an alpine hexide(instead of the southern alpine hexi. The city itself is possible a clear hex
-ChungKing seems to have very good natural defenses from mountain ranges, byt they don't look to high. I think a mountain hexide SE of Chungking (but not to the SW)
-The Yangzee should run eastwards from Chungking from the northeastern corner of the hex, not the southeastern corner. The river should run straight east for two hexes (until it hits where the Yangzee runs in the current map). The tributary from the Kweiyang area should join up just one hex east of ChungKing rather than 2 hexes. The hex two hexes east of Chungking should be mountain
-Wuhan should be one city, on the NW side of the river. The hexes to the SE and SW of Wuhan could very well be modelled as a swamps, they have many large irregular-shaped lankes and large swaths of submerged ricefields. 
-The hex NE of Nanchang could also be a swamp hex.
-Where to put lakes in this area is up for grabs, to put it mildly. I think lake hexides in wuhan area can be removed, except the 2 that are lake TungTing. I would add a lake on SE hexside on hex SW of Anking instead, and replace lakes with rivers
-Wuhan should have rivers on all sides (except posibly NW)
-Two southernmost hexsides of Han Kiang can be removed, this river enters the Yangtzee in (western part of)Wuhan
-The hex NW of NanChang should not have rivers on its 3 western hexides, but should probably be mountain
-The two lakes NW of Nanking should bothe be moved 1 hexrow east, as should the river. The river should stop at the SE corner of Suchow hex. There should also run due east all the way to the sea from this point. The railroad should remain where it is, so it should be on the western/northern side of the rivers & lakes (there's no railroad east of the river/lakes today, but there is one to the west connecting NanKing and Suchow)
-there are 4 close mediumsize cities just NW of Shanghai that I think together warrant a city hex (called Changzhou or Wuxi ?)
-Hex SW of Nanking should be swamp? (lakes, heavy with canals/submerged ricefields)
-Macau should also be a city
-There should be a lot more broken terrain (forest or mountain) in the area west of Canton. Suiggest forest W and SW of Canton, Mountain in two hexes west of these. More forest to the north of that. The river that runs in direction of ChangSha should branch off one hex sooner (i,e it would also cover Cantons NW hexside). It shoud otherwise follow same path. Move the railroad to always run east of the river.
-hexes W, WW, and W-SW of nanning Should be forest. Hex SW of Nanning should be mountain. The river that runs west of Nanning should alsa have an extension nort and cover the western side of Naning. The mountain and forest hexes on the Indochina border should eb swapped. The hex east of Nanning should probably be mountain and Nanning itself probably should be forest.
-I have trouble finding any rivers that justify most of the rivers in the Peking/Paoting/Tientsin area. Perhaps short rivers east and west of Tientsin are justified. NB!! I do see 2 big dams and broad white "riverlike" features in the terrain, though. Have the rivers in the area disappeared? (agriculture, etc?)
-I think many of the mountains a bit west of peking should be desert mountains

[Froonp]

Well, that were comments [:D].
Let me some time to digest these.
 
I'll appreciate learned comments from other people for each of those additions / modifications.
 
I reccommend a lot of prudence in some areas, as 60 years of Chinese population developement may have transformed the land cover (forests), river widths, ricefields, swampish areas, and most of all, cities surface.
 
I think I'll make a special separate version of the map to show all those changes. But I've not time for now.

[wosung]

Wow, thank's!!! Your google-earthing will help a lot making a better China map. I just added some facts&thoughts.

Regards
 

ORIGINAL: Incy

ORIGINAL: wosung

Thanks for the recommendation. You should just post your feedback/suggestions, because Google earth sure will help us to make a better China map. Do they also have historical seizes for cities??

OK, here goes:
-Ningsia (and the hex south of it?) should not be desert, but clear or forest
You're right about Ningsia hex itself: 100 km along the Yellow river rice paddies. About Ningsia Province in my 1988 China: a travel survival-kit: "Part of the arid north -west of China, Ninxia is probably one of the poorest regions in the country. Winters are hard and cold, with plummeting temperatures; blistering summers make irrigation neceessity." (p.729)
"Around Yinchuan [= Ningsia town]: About 17 km west of Yinchuan is the mountain ressort of Gunzhongku (...) The highest mountain in this range, Mt. Helena is 3556 metres high." (p.733). That probably means: a (desert?) mountain hex to the nortwest of Ningsia.
-Tianshui shou have mountains to the southeast, maybe also an alpine hexide(instead of the southern alpine hexi. The city itself is possible a clear hex
Right on that mountain hex to southeast, maybe even to the southwest hex. Maybe Forest?! My map say mountains with conifers.The city itself dry cultivated with mountains (1000-1500 m.) Not sure about alpin hex question.
-ChungKing seems to have very good natural defenses from mountain ranges, byt they don't look to high. I think a mountain hexide SE of Chungking (but not to the SW)
According to my maps the hexes south of Chongqing are 500-1000m heigh, the first  one to the east (50% 500-1000m, 50% 1000-1500 m), the second one to the east  1000-1500 m) Chongqing itself is about 100-200 m heigh.
-The Yangzee should run eastwards from Chungking from the northeastern corner of the hex, not the southeastern corner. The river should run straight east for two hexes (until it hits where the Yangzee runs in the current map). The tributary from the Kweiyang area should join up just one hex east of ChungKing rather than 2 hexes. The hex two hexes east of Chungking should be mountain.
Right about the rivers (if i've dig it). About the mountains: see above.
-Wuhan should be one city, on the NW side of the river. The hexes to the SE and SW of Wuhan could very well be modelled as a swamps, they have many large irregular-shaped lankes and large swaths of submerged ricefields.
Right about Wuhan. South of it there seems to be a 125 km wide net of different lakes.Either one lake, or one swamp-hex??
-The hex NE of Nanchang could also be a swamp hex.
Lake Poyang (3583 sq km, second biggest Lak in China) should probably extend to the south.
-Where to put lakes in this area is up for grabs, to put it mildly. I think lake hexides in wuhan area can be removed, except the 2 that are lake TungTing. I would add a lake on SE hexside on hex SW of Anking instead, and replace lakes with rivers
Lake Tungting (2820 sq km) should stay. Maybe transform Lake Liangtse into swamp hex (net of lakes, rice paddies)??
-Wuhan should have rivers on all sides (except posibly NW)
The city is practically surrounded with Yangtze, its tributaries and lakes.
-Two southernmost hexsides of Han Kiang can be removed, this river enters the Yangtzee in (western part of)Wuhan
But it splits before.
-The hex NW of NanChang should not have rivers on its 3 western hexides, but should probably be mountain
From NW to SW it's the river Kanchiang (Gangjiang). From NE to SE it's  Lake Poyang and it's tributaries. About elevation 50% flat 50% Mufu- and Jiuli-Hills (mostly 200-500 m.)
-The two lakes NW of Nanking should bothe be moved 1 hexrow east, as should the river. Right  The river should stop at the SE corner of Suchow hex.The river on the map represents the  net of 3-4 lakes, mostly not wide but mostly around 100 km long connected by channels. (This would be the more lake-ier part of the Grand Channel.) ButSuchow should be to the West of it.  There should also run due east all the way to the sea from this point. The railroad should remain where it is, so it should be on the western/northern side of the rivers & lakes (there's no railroad east of the river/lakes today, but there is one to the west connecting NanKing and Suchow) Railroad north of Suchow should switch to the hex row east of the river.
-there are 4 close mediumsize cities just NW of Shanghai that I think together warrant a city hex (called Changzhou or Wuxi ?) Nantong, Changshu, Wuxi, Changzhou These are today city-governement sized and administrated cities. Problem: There are literally hundreds of them today. As were in WW2. (besides Wuhsing is the only one also representated on my 1935 printed China-map, 1cm = 100miles) Where to begin?? Right now  Froonps China map contains most of the provincial cities, most of the more important treaty-ports, and a few historical important minor cities.
-Hex SW of Nanking should be swamp? (lakes, heavy with canals/submerged ricefields) Right, there is a lake in it. Problem with rice-fields is: If we convert all the ricefield-heavy areas in China to swamp, man that would be a rather swampy map. On the other hand: perhaps we should do it. Imperial Japanese Army didn't hav bunches of heavy tanks.[:D]
-Macau should also be a city Agreed on that: It was the oldest European colony in China in WW2, a Portugese one. But that probably would mean additional rules. BTW it formally never was occupied by the Japanese in WW2.
-There should be a lot more broken terrain (forest or mountain) in the area west of Canton. Suiggest forest W and SW of Canton, Mountain in two hexes west of these. More forest to the north of that. Agreed on that. Practically the whole area between Canton and Nanning should either be forest or mountain, apart from the coastal hexes. The river that runs in direction of ChangSha should branch off one hex sooner (i,e it would also cover Cantons NW hexside). It shoud otherwise follow same path. Move the railroad to always run east of the river. Right.
-hexes W, WW, and W-SW of nanning Should be forest. Hex SW of Nanning should be mountain. The river that runs west of Nanning should alsa have an extension nort and cover the western side of Naning. Right. The mountain and forest hexes on the Indochina border should eb swapped. The hex east of Nanning should probably be mountain and Nanning itself probably should be forest. Or mountain
-I have trouble finding any rivers that justify most of the rivers in the Peking/Paoting/Tientsin area. There is river Sanganhe, River hai he and the Grand Channel. Perhaps short rivers east and west of Tientsin are justified. NB!! I do see 2 big dams and broad white "riverlike" features in the terrain, though. Have the rivers in the area disappeared? (agriculture, etc?)
-I think many of the mountains a bit west of peking should be desert mountains I agree with that.  This could be warranted even for the north eastern part of Himalaya, some 5-600 km north west of Lanchow. BTW : The Railway Paochi(Baoji)- Lanchow was completed in 1952 (China Traval Survival Kit, p. 738-739).

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Keep up the great work all of you contributing to making the MWIF China map better. [:)]
 
I wondered if there will be a similar great work effort to create the European scale map for the other map areas of the
worldwho haven't the European map scale in WIFFE?  I think about areas like: Japan, Asian part of Russia, India,
Indo-China, Pacific Islands, Australia, Africa, America and Scandinavia.
 
Is it possible to post similar great threads as Froonp made for modifications to the MWIF China map for the other map
parts who need to be refined? I guess this is a formidable amount of work indeed so I guess work responsibility to
start each new thread will need to be distributed among the different MWIF playtesters with access to the MWIF beta
for the different map parts.
 
It was a good idea to start with the discussions of the European scaled map of China because China is so important for the
play balance. A lot of valuable information have been collected from this process that would make the process of refining
the other maps (where needed) easier. Some of the other areas are not so sensitive to play balance as China, but some
areas MAY become areas where combat would take place so it's good to review if the map would make such combat
the way it's intended regarding supply, resources etc.
 
I believe the way MWIF is created (with a LOT of communications between the developer and experienced WIF players)
is something really unique and would ensure that the final product will great. [:)]  This is something that other developers
should learn from. Let your potential users take part in the development process. It makes the players even more motivated
to buy and enjoy the game and the developer receives a lot of valuable feedback to create an even better game. It must
be fun for Shannon OKeets to have help from so many enthusiastic WIF fans. So all parts benefit from such great
cooperation. I wonder why so many other companies haven't seen the benefits from letting the players join in the
development process. It's particularly important for the players to see the progress of the development. [;)]
 
 

[Froonp]

I wondered if there will be a similar great work effort to create the European scale map for the other map areas of the worldwho haven't the European map scale in WIFFE?  I think about areas like: Japan, Asian part of Russia, India, Indo-China, Pacific Islands, Australia, Africa, America and Scandinavia.

It is not planned for the moment.

The map for scandinavia needed a lot of editing too, but this was already done. Nils had created in the past a nice European scaled Scandinavia, and we took it s a start. I made the modifications, guided by Nils (who is Norwegian). Claes Insulander should be including our modification in the playtest MWiF now. The modifications from Nils adaptation were directed at making the Scandinavia map more WiF like, and more real life like. I suppose Steve will post a screen shot when it will be done. I don't know if it will be opened to further comments & editing, Steve will decide.

There are other places I wish we will edit in the MWiF map :
- The Caucasus Mountains, who are disgressing a lot fromt he WiF FE maps in the Asia map zone.
- The Singapore area (already discussed inthese forums).
- The Iraq / persia area, where there are a couple of mods to be made (Basra position, possibly Teheran terrain).
 
I already prepared graphics of each of those areas, and am waiting for Steve clearance to start discussions about them.

I looked casually at Africa and it seemed right to me.

We should have to look at India too. It may be an important part of the Pacific map.
 
The Pacific islands, Australia & Japan seemed right to me at first look (and having played 2 complete 39-45 -- & 39-46 -- CWiF games).

Northen Siberia, with the Scandinavia modification, should be edited too (basically moved down about 10 hex rows), but it may be worthless as nothing will place care there.

I would be pleased to continue the Map editing job I begun with the Scandinavia map & now with the China map, as I enjoy it quite a lot, both on the Geographic research side (I love Geography & History) and on the Graphic Editing program using side (I love to learn new tricks on these softwares).

Cheers !
Patrice

[Shannon V. OKeets]

[blockquote]

I wondered if there will be a similar great work effort to create the European scale map for the other map areas of the worldwho haven't the European map scale in WIFFE?  I think about areas like: Japan, Asian part of Russia, India, Indo-China, Pacific Islands, Australia, Africa, America and Scandinavia.

It is not planned for the moment.

The map for scandinavia needed a lot of editing too, but this was already done. Nils had created in the past a nice European scaled Scandinavia, and we took it s a start. I made the modifications, guided by Nils (who is Norwegian). Claes Insulander should be including our modification in the playtest MWiF now. The modifications from Nils adaptation were directed at making the Scandinavia map more WiF like, and more real life like. I suppose Steve will post a screen shot when it will be done. I don't know if it will be opened to further comments & editing, Steve will decide.

There are other places I wish we will edit in the MWiF map :
- The Caucasus Mountains, who are disgressing a lot fromt he WiF FE maps in the Asia map zone.
- The Singapore area (already discussed inthese forums).
- The Iraq / persia area, where there are a couple of mods to be made (Basra position, possibly Teheran terrain).

I already prepared graphics of each of those areas, and am waiting for Steve clearance to start discussions about them.

I looked casually at Africa and it seemed right to me.

We should have to look at India too. It may be an important part of the Pacific map.

The Pacific islands, Australia & Japan seemed right to me at first look (and having played 2 complete 39-45 -- & 39-46 -- CWiF games).

Northen Siberia, with the Scandinavia modification, should be edited too (basically moved down about 10 hex rows), but it may be worthless as nothing will place care there.

I would be pleased to continue the Map editing job I begun with the Scandinavia map & now with the China map, as I enjoy it quite a lot, both on the Geographic research side (I love Geography & History) and on the Graphic Editing program using side (I love to learn new tricks on these softwares).

Cheers !
Patrice

 
I agree with all the Patrice says here. 
 
Let's take these areas one at a time.  And minimal changes is my going in position.
 
I am most concerned with areas that see (or might see) a lot of land combat. That would be southeast Asia, the eastern-most USSR, and India.
 
Of secondary importance is getting the basic geography right in areas that are unlikely to have soldiers tramping all over them.  The Great Lakes region of the US comes to mind as having many mistakes - but they won't affect game play.  Remember, the focus here is to make a game, not a wonderful map.
[/blockquote]

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: wosung

ORIGINAL: Incy
-ChungKing seems to have very good natural defenses from mountain ranges, byt they don't look to high. I think a mountain hexide SE of Chungking (but not to the SW)
According to my maps the hexes south of Chongqing are 500-1000m heigh, the first  one to the east (50% 500-1000m, 50% 1000-1500 m), the second one to the east  1000-1500 m) Chongqing itself is about 100-200 m heigh.

Wosung, you meant "the first one to the east (...) the second one to the west (...), weren't you ? The mountains south of Chungking seems higher and rougher to the southeast than to the southwest.

[Froonp]

OK Wosung, please ignore my last question. I understood while reading the next paragraph !

[Ullern]

First I agree on those points made by Incy who were justified by Wosung's comments in post 173. Except for I don't want to change anything around Cungking, and also I agree with Incy on the point about too much rivers in Peking - Tietsin area:

According to several source I have read, Chungking should be extremely difficult to take. Rough Guide of China describes it at as mountain city with rivers on both sides. But I don't want too change too much from the WIF FE. The other changes I am for, I am for because it should be harder to get to Chungking, like in WIF FE, and because of greater detail should be allowed. But I am not pro of making the attack harder.

I just realized that the Peking - Tietsin area is much harder to attack compared to WIF FE. I want to stick with the original. There weren't any rivers there in WIF FE. So I agree with Incy on that one.

I do favor most of the reaming changes wosung's comments allowed. But all this definitely doesn't follow Steve's intention of minimal changes.

In the following I have answered YES or NO in quotation of Patrice's mail. (I don't know if he already counted me, I think not, and I did change mind on some issues.)

Imperial Channel: No because I think it's not that wide and there is already added a lot of rivers, but uncertain because I do add some China "flavor." (If some other rivers disappear I might change my mind.) The Canal runs all the way to Hangchow. I can follow it in my Atlas. Also have a look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canal_of_China

Kweilin:  YES but I don't like it's in the mountains. It's a must take city for the Japanese and so is Chihkiang. is it possible to have it moved one hex NE?

ORIGINAL: Froonp

The North
Cities
- Ankang (6 votes 5 YES) YES
- Ningsia (name was Yinchuan) (7 votes 4 YES) YES
- Sining (7 votes 4 YES) YES
- Tianshui (name was Tienshui) (6 votes 6 YES) YES
- Tungkwan (name was Tongguan) (6 votes 5 YES) YES
- Paochi (name was Baoji) (not on map - was 2 hexes west of Sian) (5 votes 1 YES) NO
- Paotow (not on map - was at the end of the rail going NW from Taiyuan) (5 votes 1 YES) NO
- Yennan (6 votes 4 YES) YES

Terrain Features
- More Desert NW & W of Taiyuan-Lanchow line (4 votes 2 YES) 
YES if you mean direction of the Silk Road
- River on 3 sides around Lanchow (0 votes -- I talked about it in an old post, but no one commented)
NO simply because it makes it too dificult to attack Lanchow
- Road to Lanchow / rail interrupted at Tianshui (drawn road, moved resource to end of road - don't like it, too far) (3 votes 3 YES) YES - Incy persueded me to change point of view

The Coast
Cities
- Wuhan being moved 1 hex NW (5 votes 5 YES) YES
- Hangchow becoming a Minor Port (2 votes 1 YES) YES
- Anking (alternative to Hofei) (7 votes 4 YES) YES
- Nanchang (6 votes 5 YES) YES
- Nanyang (alternative to Siangfan) (6 votes 6 YES) YES
- Paoting (name was Baoding) (6 votes 6 YES) YES
- Suchow (6 votes 5 YES) YES
- Tsingkow (port) (was Xinhailian) (6 votes 5 YES) YES
- Hofei (name was Hefei) (alternative to Anking) (not on map - was 1 hex NW of Anking) (6 votes 0 YES) NO
- Siangfan (name was Xiangfan) (alternative to Nanyang) (not on map - was 1 hex SW from Nanyang) (6 votes 0 YES) NO

Terrain Features
- New Lake hexside west of Shanghai (4 votes 4 YES) NO
- New Anking Mountains (4 votes 4 YES) YES
- New River Imperial Channel along the railway Tientsin, Tsinan, Suchow (the imperial channel) (not added) (3 votes 1 YES) NO

The South
Cities
- Chungking being moved 1 hex SE (not moved on the map) (alternative to Add mountains around Chungking) (2 votes 0 YES) YES
- Chihkiang (name was Chihchiang) (6 votes 5 YES) YES
- Kweilin (alternative to Liuchow) (6 votes 6 YES) YES
- Pakhoi (port) (alternative to Kwangchowan) (3 votes 2 YES) YES
- Hengyang (not on map - was 2 hexes south of Changsha, on the rail) (5 votes 1 YES) NO
- Kwangchowan (port) (alternative to Pakhoi) (Wosung say name is Hoihong - not on map - was 2 hexes S/SE of Nanning) (3 votes 0 YES) NO
- Liuchow (alternative to Kweilin) (not on map - was 2 hexes SW of Kweilin) (6 votes 0 YES) NO

Terrain Features
- Move resource south (Changsha resource moved 1 hex south) (6 votes 5 YES) YES
- New Nanning Mountains / forest (2 votes 2 YES) YES
- Add Mountains around Chungking (alternative to move Chungking) (3 votes 2 YES) NO
- Road from Nanning to resource / rail interrupted (drawn) (3 votes 3 YES) YES

Nils

[Ullern]

This comments I made myself seemed funny in hindsight, knowing the canal is the longest canal in the world:

Imperial Channel: No because I think it's too small

[:D] .. and I then deleted it...

What I meant was that the canal, the earliest parts dating from 500 BC to the  last part of the canal was done by 1200 AD, the canal is in many places probably not that wide. Which is also can be comfirmed by Googleearth.

Nils