Detaching from HQ: impossible?

[Don Doom]

ORIGINAL: apollonius

Ow...! I'll have to RTFM more carefully...
What use are those weapons anyway? I mean, they don't have mobility, they can only shoot 3 rounds per turn (if you're lucky), they suffer huge suppression when under fire, and now they can't even perform indirect bombardment (I swear, they were capable of indirect fire in 8.20)? Do they have any redeeming qualities? Do they fill a specific role, or do they only exist because they're cheap?

I checked the "150mm sIG33" in the encyclopedia, and it doesn't read "SP artillery" there. The "sIG33 auf Pz I" is marked as SP artillery, though. Shouldn't there be a difference? One is a SP gun (by the way, what does "SP" mean?), the other is not. Yet they both are incapable of indirect fire.

Ok.
the 150mm Sig33 is good to support your inf. Use either sdkfz 11's or heavy trucks to haul them behind the inf. Then unload when you hit an roadblock or two with inf supporting them.
SP means self propeled ie like a tank or ht or truck.
Only in HTHfr is this able to be used for indirect. In real life on the 150mm had this capiblity and not the 75mm.
The 150mm Sig33 is the towed version and the sig33 auf pz 1 is the spa version.
spa is self prop. artillary.

[Don Doom]

Here is the spa version.

[Don Doom]

Here is the towed version.

[FlashfyreSP]

The problem is, Doom, that while we would call the sIG33 auf Pz II a "self-propeled artillery unit" in real life, for game purposes it doesn't work. The range on the weapon is too short for it to be considered in the same group as the 15cm  sFH 18 howitzer. Consequently, it falls into the Infantry Gun unit class, which cannot perform indirect barrage fire. So neither the towed version nor the SP one are Artillery pieces, per se; they are Gun classes, and are direct-fire only.

This has more to do with the game's inability to allow indirect fire onboard over obstacles; technically, you should be able to fire these IGs over buildings or hills, within the range of the weapon. But the game doesn't have this; indirect is barrage fire, and direct fire requires LOS to a target. The closest "indirect" fire is that of onboard firing at a hex within LOS but without a valid target; still, LOS to the hex is required.

[apollonius]

Wow, so much information... Thanks, guys!
Now I have only one more question: what will I have to look for, when I want to buy a SP gun with barrage ability? You already mentioned some German pieces that can do it, but what if I want to play the USMC, or Greece? Do I have to test all the available weapons, or is there some relevant piece of data in the unit description that I have to look for? 

[FlashfyreSP]

The Unit Class will tell you. When you look in the Encyclopedia, "mouse over" each unit's button in the list; in the right pane you'll see the unit, plus a lot of its stats. Look under the name: there is the Unit Class. It is this that tells the game how to "operate" the unit; look for SP-Artillery. These are self-propelled units that can fire barrage attacks.

[Don Doom]

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

The problem is, Doom, that while we would call the sIG33 auf Pz II a "self-propeled artillery unit" in real life, for game purposes it doesn't work. The range on the weapon is too short for it to be considered in the same group as the 15cm  sFH 18 howitzer. Consequently, it falls into the Infantry Gun unit class, which cannot perform indirect barrage fire. So neither the towed version nor the SP one are Artillery pieces, per se; they are Gun classes, and are direct-fire only.

This has more to do with the game's inability to allow indirect fire onboard over obstacles; technically, you should be able to fire these IGs over buildings or hills, within the range of the weapon. But the game doesn't have this; indirect is barrage fire, and direct fire requires LOS to a target. The closest "indirect" fire is that of onboard firing at a hex within LOS but without a valid target; still, LOS to the hex is required.

Well flash I was only showing him the difference between the spa and towed.  I agree with that for the 75mm version but not for the 150mm. Since most of the pic's and sources[which are the same as yours proberly] say the 150mm sig's where used in an inderect mode also, since they sat closer to the front that the standard artillay did. If they where not right behind the attacking inf or armor. 4-6k yards just about anywhere works for me as indirect fire.
 
 
ps: It's not worth arguing about as we both now it will not get fixed anytime soon. We both have our opinions and sources.  Lets argue this one out when it is changed in the code some day.

[264rifle]

Uh, Flash, if the 150mm s IG 33 wasn't a howitzer, elevates to over 70 degrees and has a 6 range zone charge system, WHAT WAS IT[&:]

just because a French 37mm trench gun (infantry gun) with an elevation of 16 degrees and a fixed charge couldn't shoot indirect is no reason not to allow the guns the guns that could.

Unless I am missing something just call the 150mm sIG 33 a howitzer, give it a range that is apropreate and have done with it. With 2 to a regiment and only 6 of the SP versions to division ( I think[&:]) untill late in the war what is the big deal????

Brumbears and the closed top MK III version are another story.

It may mess up formation selections a little????

THis dosn't really need a code change. Just put the guns in the class that lets them work and put a note in the encyclopedia.

[264rifle]

Actually, given their short range, they are very well suited to most of our game maps.

Prevents the ludicrous situations from Steel Panthers II were one method of Taking out the opposing artillery (no off board art. in that game) was to drive your Abrams or Challenger to hill top within 2 hexes of your side of the map and then direct fire over the entire battle field to hit the enemy SP guns lined up in the last row of hexes on the other side of the map.[:D]

Or if you wanted to be "SPORTING" use your long range tank fire to take out the airdefence units and then use your aircraft to blast the Artillery.[X(]

While I am sure many people here can quote me chapter and verse on times that Hummels and Wespes or M-12s and SP 105s fired direct or were only 1000-2000 yds from the action I don't think that was the plan. Putting the divisional Artillery assets so far forward that they are in danger of being counter batteried by 81mm mortars is not too bright.

What the GAME CODE cannot handle is the difference in set up time ( and hitching back up) between Sp guns and towed guns.

Given that ALL guns take one turn to set up there is little difference in SP artillery and towed. In real life it would be 3-20 turns before a towed gun could even fire direct let alone get out the survey stakes needed for indirect fire. Same for moving out of position. The bigger stuff (100mm and above) might take 3-20 turns to get limbered up and a towed out. The SP guns could do either in just a few minutes (1 or 2 turns). Since in the game there is so little difference , WE (the gamers ) keep trying to come up with more differnces or extra jobs for the SP artillery.

Given the scale of our games, in the size of our maps, in the time covered (even with our variable time turns most battles are only a couple of hours), and in the size of our forces (around a battalion with big battles going for regimental size) Having the divisional Artillery show up on the map with any regularity is just not HISTORIC [:-]

Even though it is a lot of FUN[:D][:D][:D]

Taking away the real capabilities of a unit so we can cram units that don't really belong there on our maps (fun though they are) just seems a little strange.

I am not rying to tell players how to play their games. I just think that they should be given the information and then decide for themselves.

I think that the Encyclopedia entries might be a good way to give information to the playes on scale of issue, rarity, limited to one theater useage or other "problems" with a unit. And/or why a unit maybe put in a class in the game that might seem a little out of the ordinary without the player knowing some of the gamecode issues.[:)]

[Twotribes]

Mortors are indirect fire and except the 120 and larger they dont reach across the map either. But it is unimportant, I dont buy Infantry Guns or Self Propelled versions for indirect fire. Would be nice to have if it didnt effect the direct fire role but I would rather have the direct fire role if indirect would effect that.

[FlashfyreSP]

264rifle and others:
We are talking about the difference between reality and game; in the game, the sIG33 isn't a Howitzer-classed unit. It could be, but it isn't. Why? Because it's short range disqualifies it. It IS capable of indirect fire; but not the same kind as the game uses for artillery barrages. This is because the game does not account for indirect fire over microterrain obstacles, or even over on-map obstacles that would normally be fired over. Consider a small ridgeline; on the map, perhaps a line of Level 10 hexes. Enemy units are behind it; you know this, because you have units that can see behind it. Can you, without using the Bombardment function, lob shells over the ridge onto the enemy units? No...they only way to do this is to "call for artillery", using a spotter unit with contact to higher HQ, and then wait for that fire to land. However, in real life, that sIG33 could toss a handful of rounds over the ridge by altering its elevation and the Charge of powder it used, without needing to wait for higher HQ to tell it to.

By all rights, given the scale of our maps, there shouldn't be ANY artillery on the map except for Mortars, IGs, AT Guns, Recoiless Rifles, and light AA Guns. Howitzers and Field Guns should all be relegated to OBA status; but people want them for a variety of reasons, so they are in the OOBs.

Certain weapons, while Howitzers in reality, are not classed as such in the game because they don't meet all the criteria. Giving this particular weapon the same capabilities as true Howitzer weapons "cheats" the gaming system; if the game won;t allow a certain action, then we shouldn't be trying to create a jerry-rigged workaround that isn't accurate. Unless and until the game code is changed to allow true on-board indirect fire at unseen hexes, without using the Bombardment screen, then weapons like the sIG33 and others should remain as IGs, not Howitzers.

[264rifle]

I thought one of the reasons that the Germans had these "infantry guns" was so that the battalion or regimental commander wouldn't have to ask/beg for fire support from a higher command.[&:]

That was one of the reasons for most armies getting a medium mortar platoon in the machine gun / heavy weapons company. British were going to get 3.7in mountain howitzers in the 1920s untill the bean counters figured that the Stokes mortar would do almost the same job a lot cheaper.[;)]

Are we also going to disqualify mortars from firing indirect because their range is TOO SHORT.?????

Haven't seen the new OOBs yet (my game computer hard drive crashed). If the Germans lost their super duper MK Is and MK IIs and had the effective range of the 50mm tank guns cut back then maybe they would need these infantry guns.

OLD OOB in 8.2 had captured Russian 122mm howitzers as DEDICATED ARTILLERY by the battery.[X(] Which I would doubt a lot more than these infantry guns.

[FlashfyreSP]

Once agin, you are missing the point. It's not about mortars, or their range. These units were SP Guns or IGs in 8.3; probably before that too. That hasn't changed...the units are still SP Guns and IGs, because that's the way they work best for their job, given the game limitations on indirect fire without Bombardment missions. Making them Howitzers isn't going to fix that; it's just a Rube Goldberg method to achieve a desired outcome, with unintended side effects.

[264rifle]

Oh, I think I get the point Flash.

It's your and Alby's mod. You and others have put a lot of hard work into it and "HOW DARE SOMEONE CRITICISE" your decisions.

Tell me that this would screw up formation selections.

Tell me that this would not work right in the points cost calculator.

Tell me that this would not be backwards compatable with too many scenerios.

Tell me that too many players like overrunnning infantry with MK I and MK II "SP GUNS" and it would be unpopular.

Tell me that reclassing the British close support tanks was a "Special case" work around and you are only going to do ONE of those per mod.

Just don't hand me a pile of horse manure like "Can't shoot indirect because the range is too short" and expect me to buy it.[:-]

[FlashfyreSP]

***sigh***
What part of this aren't you all seeing?
We didn't change this unit for the Enhanced Mod. The SP versions using the sIG33 are the same as they were in 8.3, and nobody complained then. Repeat: WE DID NOT CHANGE THESE!

My point is that, while THIS ONE UNIT won't be modeled correctly by making a Howitzer-classed unit, A LOT OF OTHER UNITS AREN'T MODELED CORRECTLY. But there are so many of them that some workaround HAD to be found; mortars, even tank main guns, don't all work correctly. Can you indirect fire a Sherman? No. But it was done many times in reality.

So considering that THIS ONE UNIT isn't modeled correctly, it isn't something I feel necessary to address. Like I said, we didn't change it for the Enhanced Mod. So my argument isn't one of "it's mine, if you don't like it, tough". I don't profess that everything in the OOBs is 100% right, or that I make no mistakes. Hell, I've already found a couple of things that needed fixing, and they'll be waiting for the first patch. But on this one unit, I don't think so. Not that it shouldn't have indirect capability, but that historically it was not used as a battery-type unit, with time-delay Bombardment requests and all the planning needed for those. It's indirect-fire capability was immediate and done in direct support of the infantry on the front lines. Since the game doesn't allow that kind of indirect fire, we will have to settle for the SP Gun or IG class.

[264rifle]

Flash, I NEVER said that YOU changed this unit/s. I said that you decided NOT TO CHANGE the unit/s.

I agree with you that these units have been classed the way they are for a long, long time. Maybe from the begining. That doesn't make it right.

Indirect firing of Shermans is the reverse of this problem. I agree that it was done many times but not at ranges SHORT enough to fit on most of our maps. I am also not at all sure that they fired "ON CALL". I think that they fired as part of a pre-offensive fire plan. The plan might be organized at Corp level if not even higher????? In any case not something that really belongs in the game. By the way, the French 75mm gun (used by up to 33 countries) fired just about the same ammo as the 75mm Sherman and strictly speaking should not be allowed to fire indirect on the map either[:D] but that would really cripple the French and is not really a good game idea.

Since almost all "Called" fire missions in the game happen too quickly (and no I am not calling for a change here. Plotting artillery 10 turns in advance IS NOT something I want to do) I am puzzled by the idea that since these units can't respond even quicker than the rest of the artillery we solve that problem by taking away (OK--OK---OK, not granting) their indirect fire capability.

Most, if not almost all my books are on the weapons themselves. I don't have much on tables of orginisation or unit histories. From the few mentions I have seen the early issue of the SP guns seems to have been 6 to a unit, One unit per division. How they divied them up after that I don't have a clue. This is not for the closed top MK III and the Brummbear which seem to have been issued 12 to a company or 42 to a battalion[&:] and given their lack of elevation couldn't really shoot indirect anyway.

Since most indirect fire needs some sort of forward observer, and at least a fire request ( I have a hard time swallowing that battalion assets <75mm IFG> or regimental assets <150mm IFG---2 to a regiment> were really alowed to fire on targets of oppertunity on their own authority). Granted that they didn't have to ask permission from division in order to fire. I wasn't in the army, could the battalion 81mm mortars really pick their own targets and start banging away at them[&:] with out the battalion commander getting just a little bit peeved. I know that our C@C is a little fast and loose in the game.

Another point to ponder is that these guns only had about 12 degrees of traverse (11.5) on the towed 150. This never comes up in the game and I am NOT saying it really should. But 12 degrees (IF my math is correct) means that if 1 degree equals 5 feet at 100 yds ( it might be slightly different but bear with me) 12 degrees means 600 ft/200yds=4hexes of coverd arc at 1000yds/20 hexes range or 16 hexes covered arc at at 80 hexes range. Having to shift a 2 1/2 ton gun to line up with a new target is probably going to take at least a couple of minutes.[;)] even moving the SP gun around and making sure that the intended target is is near the middle of the covered arc ( you don't want to fire the first shot and have the FO give you a correction that is 1/4 degree past your traverse limit.[;)])

Oh well, I can change them in my own OBB and hope that something happens in the Future.

Thanks in advance for all your hard work Flash. (game computer still broken[:(])