Unit Depictions on Screen

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Last in the series.  The artillery units for the Nationalists are a lighter shade of blue than those for the Communists.  If you compare the regular divisions between the two you will see the Communists have a pinkinterior while the Nationalists have a pale yellow.  The WIF FE counters used a different color scheme.

[stretch]

has anyone ever actually built that Chinese BB into the game?  [:D]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

I remember building some Chinese naval units once, but I am not sure which ones they were.

[Froonp]

For the communists artillery, a redish shade for the interior of the box would be preferable IMO.

[wosung]

I like all the counters very much!!

2 of the posted ones could be named according to the new transcription icon the map: Communist Mil Units "Lanchow", "Sian".

These 2 Communist Mil Units do appear in cities which in WW2 weren't controlled by Communist Forces. Maybe one of them could be a Yennan Mil instead??

Regards

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: wosung

I like all the counters very much!!

2 of the posted ones could be named according to the new transcription icon the map: Communist Mil Units "Lanchow", "Sian".

These 2 Communist Mil Units do appear in cities which in WW2 weren't controlled by Communist Forces. Maybe one of them could be a Yennan Mil instead??

Regards

[:D]

I agree for the names transcription, but for the Yennan MIL...... [:D]
MWiF goal is to transform into a computer software the WiF FE game. No game feature should be changed. No unit added or removed, same rules, etc... (but read last paragraph before yelling [;)])

I think you are asking to change a game feature that is really too big here. That is, removing the communist bond to Lanchow & Sian cities. This may be ahistorical, but as I already said in the China map thread, units are dependant on cities for supply in that (WiF FE) wargame. So Communist units have to be bound to cities.

I would obviously agree to have Yennan (if it is on the final China map) as a Communist city but Sian & Lanchow both also have to be Communist cities too anyway.

As to add a Yennan MIL Communist Chinese unit, people in the Game Balance in China proposed to add units to the game in China. Warlord were already selected as a solution, but why not add a couple of MIL for couple of new cities too ? Maybe 1 Communist and 1 Nationalist ?

(Seems the form to post messages changed to the old version, I like it better)

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

For the communists artillery, a redish shade for the interior of the box would be preferable IMO.

My opinion hasn't changed on this.

There are two tints of red for interior colors already for the Communist Chinese. Adding a third is too subtle a difference. The blue interior for artillery is consistent with all the other artillery divisions in the game. WIF FE used a mix of red and blue which doesn't scale well through all levels of zoom.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: wosung

I like all the counters very much!!

2 of the posted ones could be named according to the new transcription icon the map: Communist Mil Units "Lanchow", "Sian".

These 2 Communist Mil Units do appear in cities which in WW2 weren't controlled by Communist Forces. Maybe one of them could be a Yennan Mil instead??

Regards

[:D]

I agree for the names transcription, but for the Yennan MIL...... [:D]
MWiF goal is to transform into a computer software the WiF FE game. No game feature should be changed. No unit added or removed, same rules, etc... (but read last paragraph before yelling [;)])

I think you are asking to change a game feature that is really too big here. That is, removing the communist bond to Lanchow & Sian cities. This may be ahistorical, but as I already said in the China map thread, units are dependant on cities for supply in that (WiF FE) wargame. So Communist units have to be bound to cities.

I would obviously agree to have Yennan (if it is on the final China map) as a Communist city but Sian & Lanchow both also have to be Communist cities too anyway.

As to add a Yennan MIL Communist Chinese unit, people in the Game Balance in China proposed to add units to the game in China. Warlord were already selected as a solution, but why not add a couple of MIL for couple of new cities too ? Maybe 1 Communist and 1 Nationalist ?

(Seems the form to post messages changed to the old version, I like it better)

Map first.

Play test second.

Then decide whether more changes are justified.

[zeal4u]

As a longtime lurker i thought I would finally post and say how wonderful this all looks. I have been playing WiF on and off since 1st ed. came long ago. the counters and the new China map are looking really and I am interested to see how the larger may will effect game balance. In my past experiences, the war between Japan and China has been balanced in favor of the Japanese to much. With the new larger map, maybe a balance(I hope) of sorts will come out of this. I'm wondering how you guys think the larger Pacific map will play out in China?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Froonp

For the communists artillery, a redish shade for the interior of the box would be preferable IMO.

My opinion hasn't changed on this.

There are two tints of red for interior colors already for the Communist Chinese. Adding a third is too subtle a difference. The blue interior for artillery is consistent with all the other artillery divisions in the game. WIF FE used a mix of red and blue which doesn't scale well through all levels of zoom.

I have another try, because I feel that the fact that these 2 ART are Communist units doesn't show at all.
Either write "COMM" on them as you wrote "AUS" for Australian, or you an also have the box lines be red ?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: zeal4u

As a longtime lurker i thought I would finally post and say how wonderful this all looks. I have been playing WiF on and off since 1st ed. came long ago. the counters and the new China map are looking really and I am interested to see how the larger may will effect game balance. In my past experiences, the war between Japan and China has been balanced in favor of the Japanese to much. With the new larger map, maybe a balance(I hope) of sorts will come out of this. I'm wondering how you guys think the larger Pacific map will play out in China?

On this point we are unanimous: "We don't know!"

Some say this; some say that; points are made about such and such; and counter arguments are quickly presented; examples of similar situations are put forth, though they do not match exactly and only provide the odd insight; which leads to the conclusion: "It's got to be play tested!"

My goals here are for: (1) superior players to be able to win regardless of which side they play, (2) for comparable players to play China more or less to a draw, and (3) for the luck of the die roll to be less important than the decisions made by the players. But then that's the objective of every good game, isn't it?

[Froonp]

Some say this; some say that; points are made about such and such; and counter arguments are quickly presented; examples of similar situations are put forth, though they do not match exactly and only provide the odd insight; which leads to the conclusion: "It's got to be play tested!"

As a comment to what you wrote here, I'd say that it would be really great if a War in China scenario could be created and agreed upon by some of the players.
It would allow to specifically target playtest games on China.
Because otherwise, the only scenario available for testing war in China is the full 39-45 game. If you have to play a full 39-45 game to playtest the war in China, there will obviously be less playtest done than if a specific scenario is agreed upon.

I think it would be easy to set up such a scenario.


The Set Up armed forces would be the same as in the 39-45 game, and the scenario would last up to N/D 41.

The Scenario would provide a restriction as to the BP Japan have something like 40% to 60% of its total BP (of the top of my head, but should be discussed).

Otherwise, as it would be a playtest scenario only, the players would also be under the moral constraint of preparing the Japanese army to the S/O or N/D 41 waves of invasions. A set of DIV / MAR / AMPH / TRS units should be required to be in given Sea Area ports ready to invade Philippines, Malaya, NEI, Rabaul, etc...

The map used would be all the world, but the game would not give to the players the other allied & axis major power to play, and the players would be under a moral contraint of not using areas outside China, Manchuria, Korea & Japan.

What do you think ?

[Neilster]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Some say this; some say that; points are made about such and such; and counter arguments are quickly presented; examples of similar situations are put forth, though they do not match exactly and only provide the odd insight; which leads to the conclusion: "It's got to be play tested!"

As a comment to what you wrote here, I'd say that it would be really great if a War in China scenario could be created and agreed upon by some of the players.
It would allow to specifically target playtest games on China.
Because otherwise, the only scenario available for testing war in China is the full 39-45 game. If you have to play a full 39-45 game to playtest the war in China, there will obviously be less playtest done than if a specific scenario is agreed upon.

I think it would be easy to set up such a scenario.


The Set Up armed forces would be the same as in the 39-45 game, and the scenario would last up to N/D 41.

The Scenario would provide a restriction as to the BP Japan have something like 40% to 60% of its total BP (of the top of my head, but should be discussed).

Otherwise, as it would be a playtest scenario only, the players would also be under the moral constraint of preparing the Japanese army to the S/O or N/D 41 waves of invasions. A set of DIV / MAR / AMPH / TRS units should be required to be in given Sea Area ports ready to invade Philippines, Malaya, NEI, Rabaul, etc...

The map used would be all the world, but the game would not give to the players the other allied & axis major power to play, and the players would be under a moral contraint of not using areas outside China, Manchuria, Korea & Japan.

What do you think ?

This got me thinking. As an adjunct to the human testing Steve, do you think there is any value to testing via many, many AI vs AI Global War games, perhaps with human or random twiddling of the setups/options etc?

I intend to set up plenty of these out of interest anyway.

Cheers, Neilster

[Froonp]

This got me thinking. As an adjunct to the human testing Steve, do you think there is any value to testing via many, many AI vs AI Global War games, perhaps with human or random twiddling of the setups/options etc?

I intend to set up plenty of these out of interest anyway.

Could be funny to hear about the results [:D]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Froonp

For the communists artillery, a redish shade for the interior of the box would be preferable IMO.

My opinion hasn't changed on this.

There are two tints of red for interior colors already for the Communist Chinese. Adding a third is too subtle a difference. The blue interior for artillery is consistent with all the other artillery divisions in the game. WIF FE used a mix of red and blue which doesn't scale well through all levels of zoom.

I have another try, because I feel that the fact that these 2 ART are Communist units doesn't show at all.
Either write "COMM" on them as you wrote "AUS" for Australian, or you an also have the box lines be red ?

Here are the different units under discussion (with some Japanese thrown in). To my eye the difference between the Communist artillery and the Nationalist artillery is strong. The Communists get the darker shade. Indeed, that darker blue interior for the Communist Chinese appears only on their two artillery units. All the other artillery units in the game have the lighter shade of blue (which is also used for airborne units).

[Froonp]

Here are the different units under discussion (with some Japanese thrown in). To my eye the difference between the Communist artillery and the Nationalist artillery is strong. The Communists get the darker shade. Indeed, that darker blue interior for the Communist Chinese appears only on their two artillery units. All the other artillery units in the game have the lighter shade of blue (which is also used for airborne units).

Yes, you clearly see that there are some ART different from the others, but you don't know what they have special.
The distinctive feature of Communist units, is the Red Color, and there is no Red anywhere in them.

You will have the same problem with the Communist ships and Aircraft units. WiF FE has their name written in red IIRC and the ship & aircraft silhouette on the back red too.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Some say this; some say that; points are made about such and such; and counter arguments are quickly presented; examples of similar situations are put forth, though they do not match exactly and only provide the odd insight; which leads to the conclusion: "It's got to be play tested!"

As a comment to what you wrote here, I'd say that it would be really great if a War in China scenario could be created and agreed upon by some of the players.
It would allow to specifically target playtest games on China.
Because otherwise, the only scenario available for testing war in China is the full 39-45 game. If you have to play a full 39-45 game to playtest the war in China, there will obviously be less playtest done than if a specific scenario is agreed upon.

I think it would be easy to set up such a scenario.


The Set Up armed forces would be the same as in the 39-45 game, and the scenario would last up to N/D 41.

The Scenario would provide a restriction as to the BP Japan have something like 40% to 60% of its total BP (of the top of my head, but should be discussed).

Otherwise, as it would be a playtest scenario only, the players would also be under the moral constraint of preparing the Japanese army to the S/O or N/D 41 waves of invasions. A set of DIV / MAR / AMPH / TRS units should be required to be in given Sea Area ports ready to invade Philippines, Malaya, NEI, Rabaul, etc...

The map used would be all the world, but the game would not give to the players the other allied & axis major power to play, and the players would be under a moral contraint of not using areas outside China, Manchuria, Korea & Japan.

What do you think ?

No.

Setting up a scenario is a nightmare. It took me a couple of months to get the 6 new ones I did mostly installed. I am not looking forward to finishing the 2 I still have remaining to do. The rules of this game do not allow for turning off US Entry, aligning countries, and numerous other details.

Changing rules is out of the question.

Instead, I would expect the players to play test play balance on China using the Global War scenario but not move any units for any of the major powers except China and Japan, and for the latter, only move units vis-a-vis China. All the other countries would lie fallow.

[wosung]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: wosung

I like all the counters very much!!

2 of the posted ones could be named according to the new transcription icon the map: Communist Mil Units "Lanchow", "Sian".

These 2 Communist Mil Units do appear in cities which in WW2 weren't controlled by Communist Forces. Maybe one of them could be a Yennan Mil instead??

Regards

[:D]

I agree for the names transcription, but for the Yennan MIL...... [:D]
MWiF goal is to transform into a computer software the WiF FE game. No game feature should be changed. No unit added or removed, same rules, etc... (but read last paragraph before yelling [;)])

No yelling, just proposing [:D]

I think you are asking to change a game feature that is really too big here. That is, removing the communist bond to Lanchow & Sian cities. This may be ahistorical, but as I already said in the China map thread, units are dependant on cities for supply in that (WiF FE) wargame. So Communist units have to be bound to cities.

I would obviously agree to have Yennan (if it is on the final China map) as a Communist city but Sian & Lanchow both also have to be Communist cities too anyway.

Why?
Ahh, let me guess:
Play balance! [8D]

As to add a Yennan MIL Communist Chinese unit, people in the Game Balance in China proposed to add units to the game in China. Warlord were already selected as a solution, but why not add a couple of MIL for couple of new cities too ? Maybe 1 Communist and 1 Nationalist ?

Sounds interesting. Just test it out while playtesting!

(Seems the form to post messages changed to the old version, I like it better)

I agree

Best thing of all: When MWIF is out, nobody can say, China/Asian map was just blown up without detailed thoughts about it.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Here are the different units under discussion (with some Japanese thrown in). To my eye the difference between the Communist artillery and the Nationalist artillery is strong. The Communists get the darker shade. Indeed, that darker blue interior for the Communist Chinese appears only on their two artillery units. All the other artillery units in the game have the lighter shade of blue (which is also used for airborne units).

Yes, you clearly see that there are some ART different from the others, but you don't know what they have special.
The distinctive feature of Communist units, is the Red Color, and there is no Red anywhere in them.

You will have the same problem with the Communist ships and Aircraft units. WiF FE has their name written in red IIRC and the ship & aircraft silhouette on the back red too.

I didn't know there were any Chinese Communist naval or air units.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Here are the different units under discussion (with some Japanese thrown in). To my eye the difference between the Communist artillery and the Nationalist artillery is strong. The Communists get the darker shade. Indeed, that darker blue interior for the Communist Chinese appears only on their two artillery units. All the other artillery units in the game have the lighter shade of blue (which is also used for airborne units).

Yes, you clearly see that there are some ART different from the others, but you don't know what they have special.
The distinctive feature of Communist units, is the Red Color, and there is no Red anywhere in them.

You will have the same problem with the Communist ships and Aircraft units. WiF FE has their name written in red IIRC and the ship & aircraft silhouette on the back red too.

I didn't know there were any Chinese Communist naval or air units.

In fact this is normal, as they are PatiF units now that I remeber.
I forgot that.