Removing all offboard artillery

[o4r]

Yes, I know there is alot of arugment on this matter, Bill explained before... ya I understand.

Since I normally spend my time playing with AI, I thought of removing all the off board artillery.

To my surprise, even if I set all the off board artillery to 1949, the computer AI still able to purchase one battery of off board artillery?

Has anybody try this? It seem like the computer has another purchase menu.

[Alby]

There are certain formations the AI uses, some artillery might be hidden in a formation that isnt necessarily an artillery formation.
what nation were you playing against?

[o4r]

I used both the OOB dump and editor.
 
I edit all Russia OB artillery as start date 1949 and end date is 1949.
 
I used the battle generator to try it.  So I play German and AI is russia.  But though all OB artillery available date has changed, they kept purchasing one unti of off board 122 mm.
 
By the way, the 8.403 some how has made 105mm and below artillery quite useless, is there any update available for that.
 
Also whilst playing 8.403, I realised a old issue has arise.  I can't remember which version was that, somehow when we kept attacking a unit until it routed the next moment, it disappear.  I think the spotting problem came back.

[m10bob]

By the way, the 8.403 some how has made 105mm and below artillery quite useless, is there any update available for that.

I noticed the artillery and the snipers had been reverted to Girl Scout's again, (or so it seems.)..When I began using the new Enhanced Mod, those artillery problems went away..
For whatever reason, about half of the forum community has not wanted stronger arty or better snipers, and they relentlessly make statements about how the vanilla snipers and the artillery are strong enough.
IMHO, it is also relevant about half of the forum members are civilians with no military time, to make a knowledgeable, first person experience, kind of judgement on those subjects.
It's all about individual preferances, and to quote many:"That's what the editor is for".[:D]

[PimpYourAFV]

Artillery under 105mm does not cause casualties, only suppression. Over 105mm will cause light casualties if you turn the soft/hard settings to about 140 each. A lot of unstrategic players load up on tons of arty to suppress the AI so it can't fight back, and they want it non-lethal so they don't suffer casualties when the AI uses its offboard in return.

[o4r]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

I noticed the artillery and the snipers had been reverted to Girl Scout's again, (or so it seems.)..When I began using the new Enhanced Mod, those artillery problems went away..
".[:D]

So are you saying that the enhanced mod has solved the issue of the artillery problem? Well when I used direct fire from a ISU 152 or a KV2 vs German unit, they just stand there....

[Alby]

Enhanced has not solved any artillery problems.

An attempt was made to adjust it, but did not work out in time, an adjustment is coming but can't say when.

if you use onboard artillery and place it in good range of enemy, where it becomes much more accurate, damage can be done by 105s, medium mortars and the like.

Adjust Arty to 110-120 effectiveness if you are unhappy with it.
Use snipers as snipers, meaning keep them hidden and stationary and they can be a pain in the butt.
people try to use them as scouts, moving around, then firing and thats not their purpose.

[o4r]

with 8.403. Soft target win.

I just tried a game with my friend. I played Russia and used AA gun plus AT gun plus some trucks and alot of scout and infantry.

I totally destroyed his tanks unit and the artillery isn't hurting me much..... I think this what happen with the tweak to artillery been reduced it effectiveness. Now soft target rulezz man.

[KG Erwin]

About increasing arty effectiveness -- Michael is working on it, but be careful of what you wish for. 
 
I find that short-range indirect fire with onboard arty/mortars is quite effective.  At ranges of 300-500 yards, it is deadly.  I keep my battalion mortars very close to the frontline.  The Lt Col's personal arty (at least for the Americans) are his best friends.  
 
With 8.403, I use offboard arty for suppressive counterbattery fire, and sometimes on visible attacking/defending infantry.  This is its current primary role-- suppression.  
 
In the Pacific battles I fight, the formula is pretty much set -- suppress the enemy with fire, and then move in and destroy them with direct fire and close assault. 
 
I have no particular problem with offboard arty effectiveness -- you can adjust this in the preferences.   If Mike goes ahead with his plan to bump it up 20%, then we're gonna have complaints about arty dominating the battlefield and requests for limitations on support points.  I can see it coming.  

[o4r]

Now, back to the original question.

Why I removed all the off board artillery and the computer AI still can purchased Off Board Artillery.

Is there a secondary menu for the AI or simply it don't goes bythe normal rule we play?

Long ago, I also realised that when ever the AI assualt, somehow they knew where were my dug in infantry unit, and AI will bombard them.

However, if I ride my unit on any truck or tank, they will only hit the victory hex.

One thing I really hate about off board artillery is that whoever has a bigger gun longer range will always counter the one want which its range is shorter. That why I perfer to have on board. If you are good, counter me and try to spot my artillery or guess my next location. Off board counter artillery is based on alot on your range of artillery and your country experience, nothing to do with skill in sense of counter artillery.

[KG Erwin]

I don't fully understand your complaints, o4r.  The AI is weak, but does handle arty well.  Why would you want to take away its one redeeming feature?

To my mind, its the great equalizer, and adds some challenge. 
 
I can set up a nearly perfect defense, and slaughter the enemy infantry as it approaches, but I know full well that the AI will pound me with his arty/air assets sooner or later. Is that a bad thing?   

[FlashfyreSP]

The AI use a "picklist" to pick what formations to buy fro the different types of battles. These lists are not avavilable to us, as they are coded in the mech.exe, and probably haven't been checked for ages. So, yes, the AI follows a different purchasing routine than you do, o4r. And in this case, while you changed all the OB Artillery formations, you have probably missed a non-OB Artillery formation that includes an artillery section or battery.

If you want to mess around with the formations, be careful or you will cause a lot of AI force composition problems...this includes moving formations around and deleting ones. The AI often picks the same formations you do, but in accordance with it's picklist. They aren't all marked as "AI" formations.

[o4r]

I tried and found out that in Russian formation unit 115 (OB 122mm FH Bty) is a unit no matter what u do, the AI will select.
 
KG Erwin, let me clarify.  I wasn't complaining about the game.  I was trying to remove the OB artillery off from my own OOB and trying to find out a way to do it.  My comments is just an explaination why I hate about the OB artillery.
 
In 8.4 to 8.403, the AI has improved alot on using the on board artillery. 

[FlashfyreSP]

The only formations that have OBA units in them that I can find are #1123 - Artillery Btry, #1124 - Artillery Btln, and #1129 - AI Arty. With all three of these deleted, you shouldn't be seeing any off-map 122mm artillery.

[o4r]

Nahhh... It won't work.  I have tried.  Unit 115 is a unit no matter what you change it to, AI definitely will select.
 
If you don't believe me, you change unit 115 to something else.  Select a random battle opposite forces as russian.  After deployment mode change immediately surrender.  You can see the Russian will purchase unit 115 even if you change it as mule.....

[FlashfyreSP]

It's not a unit issue; Formation 1123 seems to be hardwired into the AI picklist no matter what the date is. You will have to delete the formation entirely if you want no OBA for your games.

[o4r]

So now if I change the Arty Btn to ++AI Atry+++ and placed on board artillery in it, the AI will choose on board artillery.
 
Actually how many hardwire code does the AI used?
 
[:D]

[FlashfyreSP]

No idea. The picklists aren't common knowledge, so if the formations get messed with, it can screw up the AI force selection.

But basically, if you change the units inside that formation, the AI will always buy it.

[o4r]

One more question,  as you know I am changing the OOB to fit for myself and my friends, I have fixed most of the other nation MG, but I don't understand why GE has 2 MMG.  One for SS and one for GE normal troops.
 
I was a military a platoon before so I understand MG34 or 42, I actually regards it as one of the first GPMG, basically it depend on how it is mounted.
 
But what is the different between the 2 in the OOB for GE unit.
 
Does it meant that GE MMG (with belt mag) is always used on bipod and SS MMG (with belt mag) is used on tripod (HMG)?  That why the different in FC and RG?
 
Also does LMG in the game meant that they used the MG with 50 rds drums and assault [:D].  Thought I dunno which idiot do that but .... never mind I have redesigned it and it was accepted by my friends.
 
So GE MMG and SS MMG... somebody please.

[Alby]

the SS MGs have +10 added for being classed "elite"
there are also SS Inf AT formations that have same.
those have been in the game for a long time now.