The Thread

[rtrapasso]

Shameless bump to destroy Wood references...

Any chance Nik is related to the Unibomber?? [8|] [:'(]

[DuckofTindalos]

Well, he's certainly insane enough...

[Nikademus]

Porch agrees with that. He ascribed the Deserts of North Africa as a vast practice ground where Allied forces (both British and American) could weed out bad generals and isolate and fix tactical/operational issues against an opponent with a superior operational/tactical framework governed by a proven and veteran leadership team. (though he doesn't spare Rommel either from criticism)

Husky and the invasion of Italy provided further operational lessons in orchastrating and coordinating Allied amphibious and Air transport operations. (and a good thing too given the air transport disaster on the first day of Husky)

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Well, he's certainly insane enough...

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Porch agrees with that.

[:D] [:D]

[DuckofTindalos]

Hah! We've got it in writing!

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Hah! We've got it in writing!

insanity is a requirement in my occupations.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Hah! We've got it in writing!

insanity is a requirement in my occupations.

Occupations? (or do you mean preoccupations?) [:'(]

[rtrapasso]

One day i'll learn to check the subject BEFORE hitting OK...

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

[Occupations? (or do you mean preoccupations?) [:'(]

Well the GF unit last night would have labeled the mod work i was doing late last night as that....and a negative one to boot.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

[Occupations? (or do you mean preoccupations?) [:'(]

Well the GF unit last night would have labeled the mod work i was doing late last night as that....and a negative one to boot.

Speaking of mods, it appears you have a problem with yours:

fb.asp?m=1152478

[Nikademus]

Problems? everything has problems. [:'(]

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

A similar description is given in Douglas Porch's The Path to Victory (The Mediterranean Theater in World War II)

Porch is not all that kind to Ike, describing him as rather aloof from operational planning and more concerned with promoting Allied unity and making sure no mud on his stars. (Another paragraph akins Ike to a "CEO" of a company vs. a real general) Porch doesn't discount the importance of Ike's diplomatic efforts however but when discussing the issues revolving around the actual invasion, its not pretty. It would appear fortunate that the landings were mostly unopposed and lends weight to Porch's thesis that the theater was decisive for the Allies (vs. the traditional "distraction" or "side show" that some US histories ascribe to the theater) because it represented an invaluable training and practice ground for a fledgling force (Britian included during the early days vs. Rommel) allowing the Allies to hone their skills particularily in amphibious operations. The author feels that had Overlord (Roundup/Bolero) been attempted immediately without that practice, it could have and most likely would have ended in disaster.

I wouldn't disagree with that assessment Nik, but would add, what else would one expect of an army that was grossly "out of shape" through the entire 20's and 30's. I would suggest that Ike did a good job in the since that he was able to learn from his mistakes, and further, was smart enough not to bite off more than he could chew at the start. It's a wise person who knows his limitations and a brave person who can admit them.

Imagine what disaster might have ensued had Patten been commander.

[Nikademus]

lol...depends on where you ask. I've seen posts on miltary forums where some posters have claimed that the US could have and should have invaded France in 1942 and then proceed to quote available divisions and other manipulable statistics. This is usually followed by an Anglophobic blast or two that would make Patton smile. On this board.....[;)] well everyone knows the US walked into the war kicking butt and taking names (according to some) [:D]

[niceguy2005]

Nik, I realize that this isn't your position, at tleast it doesn't sound like it, but I think the idea of a D-day style invasion in 42 is rather naive - these are probably the same folks who loose all their US carriers in Feb 42. The US winnning the war wasn't just about tactics. It was about training, about equipment and learning what did and didn't work in the field. It was about logistics. It was about sorting out which officers were worth their salt and which ones should be sent back to Washington.

It was also about whittling away at the enemy. Instead of attacking into the teeth of his defenses with green troops, attack the flanks and train. Imagine the green US troops pushing their way ashore at Normandy, even more beat up then they were, but succeeding by shear numbers. Then Rommel and a sizeable chunk of his Afrika Korp is redepolyed to France. The Allies may not have stood a chance. Better to beat the Afrika Korp actually in Africa, where supply lines are long, the enemy can be attacked from both sides and most importantly, no ground is so important it has to be held. A perfect training situation.

How many good German soldiers ended up surrendering in Africa, that the US didn't have to fight later in Europe?

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
How many good German soldiers ended up surrendering in Africa, that the US didn't have to fight later in Europe?

Something 300k to 500k I dont recall.

And if we speak about training dont forget Dieppe! Was bit of disaster to be good training ecercise.

[rtrapasso]

GREAT NEWS FROM THE MONEY PIT FRONT:

After i predicted this could never happen: The Credit Card Company reversed the charges on the paving scammer!![X(] [X(] [:D] [:D]

My wife collected so much information about their various scams, that the Town of Copper Canyon is trying to press criminal charges as well!

Round 2 to us - let's see what happens next...

[Nikademus]

I would NEVER lose my carriers early.

[Nikademus]

Porch puts the total 'Butcher's Bill' for the Axis at;

950,000 troops (killed or captured)
6,200 guns
2,550 tanks
70,000 trucks
and 2,400,000 tons of shipping.

Obviously this includes the entirety of the North African campaign, not just Torch. Hitler greatly exaserbated the bill by "reinforcing failure" and making a stand in Tunisia.

Porch also puts a big burden of the blame on Rommel himself, who made a habit of exceeding his orders and taking the fight to the enemy when the orig goal was just to prop up Italian defenses. While there was also merit in Rommel's take the fight to the enemy, he ended up committing Germany to a fight it couldn't possibly conclude successfully due to logistics and the German commitment to Barbarossa. Torch was signal that the game was up.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Porch puts the total 'Butcher's Bill' for the Axis at;

950,000 troops (killed or captured)
6,200 guns
2,550 tanks
70,000 trucks
and 2,400,000 tons of shipping.

Obviously this includes the entirety of the North African campaign, not just Torch. Hitler greatly exaserbated the bill by "reinforcing failure" and making a stand in Tunisia.

Porch also puts a big burden of the blame on Rommel himself, who made a habit of exceeding his orders and taking the fight to the enemy when the orig goal was just to prop up Italian defenses. While there was also merit in Rommel's take the fight to the enemy, he ended up committing Germany to a fight it couldn't possibly conclude successfully due to logistics and the German commitment to Barbarossa. Torch was signal that the game was up.

[X(]

Imagine having just half of that available on the eastern front in late 43. That would have put a dent in the Soviets. That would have been a nice little Panzer Army for a reserve.

[Nikademus]

Even though it includes Italian casualties....yes, it was quite the loss. Combined with the invasion of Sicily knocked Italy out of the war leaving Germany alone. (unless you count the occasional Iboat visit.)