Where is Nomonhan scenario?

[Catch21]

I saw that there is a Nomonhon scenario with the game, by Norm Kroger. I wonder how it compares with the one by Adamo?

Then try both. If one or the other didn't ship with the game it's still publicly available. Then do us all a favour... post here to let us know which you think is better.

[JMS2]

ORIGINAL: hen5ri

Oleg,
I read your first post. It seemed to me to be full of sarcasm, implied criticism, and itching for a fight. A simple 'What happened to these excellent scenarios' would have worked much better without the sarcasm.

If you find them, please post them to Rugged Defense for all to enjoy.

Remember that emotions don't show up well when positng, please emote![:-]
[/quote]

FWIW, I did not sense any criticism in Oleg's post, I thought that he was just being helpful in agreeing with me that it was a good scenario, regretting that it is not available, and correcting my misspelling of the author's name.[:'(]

I do appreciate the hard work of the beta testers, but perhaps they should realize that not everyone has spent the last year horsing around with TOAW - in fact I had not touched the game for so many years that I have forgotten almost everything I knew.[:'(]

I saw a message somewhere that I can't find that old TOAW scenarios can be input to TOAW3 simply by opening them in the editor then saving them, which I did for some scenarios such as the excellent Drang Nach Osten . But I don't remember seeing that only COW scenarios would play OK[X(].(I have 4 versions of TOAW, but not COW - at least I don't think so...[&:]. A problem with this forum is that there are so many postings that after one day most messages have scrolled to page 3 [8|]

I suggest that this information be put in a thread that stays at the top, because I am sure that I will not be the only one not to understand that this is the case.

BTW, in reading the file with scenario descriptions, I saw that there is a Nomonhon scenario with the game, by Norm Kroger. I wonder how it compares with the one by Adamo?

Henri
[/quote]

Henri, I fully appreciate that not all available scenarios were not evaluated, but there's a reason for that, which is that TOAW evolved over time and conversion from TOAW-I to ACOW is no simple matter. It was assumed that a designer that only designed for TOAW-I back in 2002-2003 had lost interest in the game, so there was no point in contacting him for an update.

[Oleg Mastruko]

Wow this thread grows fast. I am only sorry I missed the original post by Keke, before he, obviously, edited it and deleted everything [:D][:D]

Keke I saw you on Red Orchestra servers under what is, I presume, your old nick, I tried to say hello but you never replied? [&:]

Anyhow, I said everything I had to say - you guys disappointed me with selection of scenarios offered in TOAW 3 and that's it, not much to add to that. Now we might as well get this back on track - Nomonhan scenarios!

In my very old archives I found 4, ie two pairs (both describing two actual Nomonhan incidents).

I give absolutely no guarantees about them, I have no idea under which version of TOAW they work, so use them at your own responsibility.

This is the first pair - I don't know who's the author. Download, change the extension to Zip and unpack.

O.

[Oleg Mastruko]

This is the second pair, these two are by d'Adamo - again, no guarantees are given, convert, and use at your own risk.

d'Adamo's treatment of Nomonhan as I remember it is by far the best in TOAW history in my opinion, better even than Norm's own. (Norm did a great job on Korea though).

Oleg

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: JMS2
But then you lack the courage to either post/mail the criticism in private or in public and instead prefer to slander the designers and those who selected the designs, and then, when called on it, start complaining about non-existent personal insults.

Sure, it's very "fair".

I do not lack the courage to post anything, and I never EVER complain about insults. I reply by my own insults. In fact I love when threads degenerate into insult-fests, because it's fun, and I still manage to come on top - arguments, insults all is fine by me [:D]. The only reason why I didn't do that in this case is because Erik found it appropriate to warn both me and another poster in another thread, for what were much milder words than what you initially used here. Assuming this time he'll warn you (which he didn't do - yet) I simply decided to make his life easier.

Courage to post criticisms? I feel you guys, scenario selection team or whatever you are called, had to do the job of, well, *selecting*. My main criticism is towards you. I see no sense, and think it would be mean and evil, to scrutinize each and every of the, say 140 scenarios I think are bad and unworthy of TOAW 3. I can do that, I just feel it's not appropriate. Not here, not now, not on this forum, and certainly not in this thread.

What IS appropriate is calling you guys from the TOAW 3 team for job you didn't do well. You're credited for that - so you might as well live with it.

Oleg

[nemo69]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

What IS appropriate is calling you guys from the TOAW 3 team for job you didn't do well. You're credited for that - so you might as well live with it.

Oleg

[:D] Really not a problem, I can live with this opinion of yours.

Thanks for bringing up the scenarios, the web archive would resurrect D'Adamo's site but not the scens.

[Banquet]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
In fact I love when threads degenerate into insult-fests, because it's fun, and I still manage to come on top

Only in your own mind Oleg. I respect your knowledge you're too quick to criticize people whose vision isn't compatible with yours.

It's easy to sit back and mock other people's work.. you seem good at that, at least..

[JJKettunen]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
Keke I saw you on Red Orchestra servers under what is, I presume, your old nick, I tried to say hello but you never replied? [&:]

That's pretty hard for me since I have never been on such servers.

I have a 8-month hectic work schedule behind me, which ended on Thursday. This limited my participation to the scenario selection process to a minimum. Since my advice regarding Finnish scenarios was ignored anyhow, I tend to agree with Oleg [;)], although I wouldn't be as brutal in my criticism (in fact Oleg's comments made me angry at first).

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

This is the second pair, these two are by d'Adamo - again, no guarantees are given, convert, and use at your own risk.

d'Adamo's treatment of Nomonhan as I remember it is by far the best in TOAW history in my opinion, better even than Norm's own. (Norm did a great job on Korea though).

Oleg

Your attachments don't appear to work, Oleg.

[Chuck2]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

This is the second pair, these two are by d'Adamo - again, no guarantees are given, convert, and use at your own risk.

d'Adamo's treatment of Nomonhan as I remember it is by far the best in TOAW history in my opinion, better even than Norm's own. (Norm did a great job on Korea though).

Oleg

Your attachments don't appear to work, Oleg.

Didn't work for me, either.

[Oleg Mastruko]

Try this:

Nomonhan 1 (don't know who's author)

Nomonhan 2 (d'Adamo)

Both Zip archives contain further two Zip archives, containing actual scenarios (describing first and second Nomonhan incidents).

No guarantees are given, I have no idea which version of TOAW these scenarios work with etc blah.

O.

[golden delicious]

Thanks. I am able to download these without any problem. I can confirm that all four are Volume I scenarios

[golden delicious]

Looking at Adamo's scenarios. I'd say they're probably above average for the standard of TOAW scenarios in general. Some weird TO&Es, but no huge problems, and since I don't really know the battle I can't really be sure what the right TO&E and OOBs would be.

I find it comical, given Oleg's remarks elsewhere, that one of his highly recommended scenarios has a selection of tank units with 90% proficiency.

[Chuck2]

Well, these wouldn't load into either COW or TOAW 3. I'm unfamiliar with the pre-COW versions of TOAW. These scenarios are time stamped as being from January 1999, when Bill Clinton still had two more years to go in office. [:D]

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
I find it comical, given Oleg's remarks elsewhere, that one of his highly recommended scenarios has a selection of tank units with 90% proficiency.

So? 90% is 10% less than 100%.

These scenarios are obviously playtested, and produce extremely historic, realistic results, if played in historical fashion. They just *feel* right! (Or they felt under whichever version of TOAW they were intended to work with.) I spent lots of time playing them and they are among my, say, top 20 scenarios for TOAW ever (any version).

Playing d'Adamo's Nomonhans I realy feel like I am controlling Soviet and/or Japanese operational level warfare of the period, not just nameless digital counters someone built copy/pasting data from the 1 hour Googling session, and never tested (which, incidentally, describes 80% of all TOAW scenarios of all time, and at least 60% of scenarios included in TOAW 3 distribution).

Now please lets stop. I am ready to stop and never mention my criticisms of scenario selection process in the foreseeable future on this board, but if you and your buddies continue to fiddle on that - I will continue to reply, as my criticisms remain very substantial and harsh.

Oleg

[henri511]

Thanks Oleg[&o].

The scenario I was looking for was "Nomanhan: a bridge too poor", which is one of those you put uploaded. But unfortunately the editor says it can't load the scenario (which is necessary before TOAW3 can use it)[:(].

Probably because it's a TOAW 1 version[:'(]...

Maybe someone will figure out how to make it work with TOAW3.

Henri

[David Heath]

Hi Guys

Remember some of these design choices were setup by me.  I wanted to make sure we had some guildlines in place. We will be doing more in the near future.  So please do not take any issues with the Scenario Researchers or the playtesters a lot of it were beyond there control.

David Heath
Matrix Games

[JMS2]

ORIGINAL: hen5ri

Thanks Oleg[&o].

The scenario I was looking for was "Nomanhan: a bridge too poor", which is one of those you put uploaded. But unfortunately the editor says it can't load the scenario (which is necessary before TOAW3 can use it)[:(].

Probably because it's a TOAW 1 version[:'(]...

Maybe someone will figure out how to make it work with TOAW3.

Henri

It's quite easy, all you need is TOAW 1 patched to the 1.06 or 1.07 level (the latest, don't remember which was) and a W98 computer. Load the scenario in the editor, save it, then open it with ACOW and save it and then open it in TOAW-3.

[henri511]

ORIGINAL: JMS2

ORIGINAL: hen5ri

Thanks Oleg[&o].

The scenario I was looking for was "Nomanhan: a bridge too poor", which is one of those you put uploaded. But unfortunately the editor says it can't load the scenario (which is necessary before TOAW3 can use it)[:(].

Probably because it's a TOAW 1 version[:'(]...

Maybe someone will figure out how to make it work with TOAW3.

Henri

It's quite easy, all you need is TOAW 1 patched to the 1.06 or 1.07 level (the latest, don't remember which was) and a W98 computer. Load the scenario in the editor, save it, then open it with ACOW and save it and then open it in TOAW-3.

Although I have 4 versions of TOAW, COW is the one I don't have. Could Wargame of the year do it?

OK, I have my own answer: I installed WOTY and Opart 300 cannot load the scenario in the editor, so unless someone else tries it with COW, I guess I am up the creek with this scenario.

BTW, I am not criticizing because the scenario is not included, I am just pointing out that I would like it to be...

Henri

[Catch21]

I think there are only 3 scenarios on this interesting 'incident':

Nomonhan 1- 'Test of Strength'
Nomonhan 2- 'A Bridge Too Poor'
Second Nomonhan'39

If any are not included and you cannot find them out there, PM me and I will find a copy and send it to you.

Also if you need scenarios converted and don't have the right version of TOAW, ask nicely on a forum or so and someone will usually be happy to do it for you.