Modifications to MWiF China Map portion

[lomyrin]

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

To put a bit more fuel on the discussion I did a global war setup in the current beta version of the product, it does not include patrice new terrain and cities but the number of hexes are the same so the picture does show the counterdensity pretty accurately.

I did not spend an awful lot of time tinking about the strategy of the setup, it is just to give you all a flavour.

I would have the Nat Chinese Chungking 4-3 Mil in Chengchow to absorb the first Jap attack and delay them a bit.
Also I would have the Communist Mil and the Inf in the mountain hexes on both sides of the railway beteween Chengchow and Si An with Mao between them and SI An providing supply. The Japanese can't go north of Si An through the mountains without losing time in transit giving the Communists time to build up and or respond.

Lars

[trees trees]

I've been doing that in an imaginary way quite a few times the last few days. That is an aggressive Chinese set-up that could lose Nanning and/or Si-An (esp. if the 4 mover INF is under that 8-3) by the second or third impulse if it didn't rain, with a serious threat to Kwei-Yang on turn 2. The Japanese could be threatened in the center but 'walk right in, said the spider to the fly'.

I was looking at the map of WiFFe last night and I realized the Chinese are always in supply on that map and don't need HQs either. I guess the point I've been trying to make is that this is a perhaps ahistorical reason why the Japanese can have a hard time holding on to their gains in China from the mid-game on if they haven't pushed the Chinese back on Chungking. Again on supply think ammunition and the transport links to where it comes from.

wrong thread again: one idea of a minor change to help the Chinese would be to simply change the home city of their MIL counters. Since three out of five of them are behind Japanese lines at start they can't be rebuilt. Those three cities (Peking, Shanghai, Canton) do represent important areas to China but it's not like they were going to run out of manpower in the interior either. Maybe change two of them to Kwei-Yang and Chang-Sha?

[wosung]

Are warlords on both sides are included in the setup?

I didn't play it yet, but:
With this chinese setup wouldn't it be an alternative for the Japanese to go for Nanning and the ressource near to it first? Get the North-South railway in the mountains, and aiming for Chungking.
What would the Chinese troops around Wuhan would do then? Going for Wuhan and Shanghai? Or defending Sichuan Province?

But on the other side, troops would have to be transferred to Canton, and I' m not sure about logistics for aiming at cunming.


Another thing:

I'll be offline for about three weeks. So you guys here have all the time to set up Mao HQ in Bratislava or elsewere. No, just kidding.
[:)]

So far I enjoyed this forum very much.

Regards

[trees trees]

It's fun to have Mao hang out behind Zhukov after Mao overruns Manchuria. When Zhukov finally sends out 105% of his troops on a frontal assault and they all die after Zhukov rolls snake eyes, the Germans get discouraged facing yet another army from Asia.

Safe travels!

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: wosung
I'll be offline for about three weeks. So you guys here have all the time to set up Mao HQ in Bratislava or elsewere. No, just kidding.
[:)]

So far I enjoyed this forum very much.

Too bad you're leaving ! What will this thread become without your enlightened comments ?
Which does not means that the others posters are not enlightening, but Wosung is quite a lot.
[:D]
Have a nice travel Wosung !

[c92nichj]

In my four PBEM games of CWIF China was killed or nearly killed in three of the games, the typical startegy can be seen in the picture below. In onegame the chineese army was encircled and put OOS outside Chang-sa, and the japanaeese could preyy much ignore it and just walk around it (we were playing with the isolation option).

In the fourth game the chineese pushed Japan out of the mainland by '43 save a couple of coastal hexes. Once Japan is at war with the wallies there was not much she could do to defend herself in China, actionlimits was the main problem, as japan couldn't afford to react to the Chineese advances, actually the war in the pacific was not performed very well either as some actionlimits had to be used in China.

[lomyrin]

I agree with you that in CWiF China falls or is severely mauled more often than not.

But, the first winter is coming and CWiF issued 2 Communist Mils to start. In the winter Japan will be slowed down in speed and attacks. The Chinese forces will have some time to build up.

Lending resources and BP's can also assist China even if Chinese attack weakness is used.

The proposed map with the extra cities and warlord additions should also help to cost Japan more losses and to slow down their advances.

Having to expend more effort and BP's for the China war ought to make Japan a little less formidable against the USA later on. I have come around to think this is good, in CWiF Japan has been very strong in the Pacific in my experience with CWiF. past and present.

Lars

[Froonp]

In my four PBEM games of CWIF China was killed or nearly killed in three of the games, the typical startegy can be seen in the picture below. In onegame the chineese army was encircled and put OOS outside Chang-sa, and the japanaeese could preyy much ignore it and just walk around it (we were playing with the isolation option).

c92nichj, were the Chinese setup similary to the shot of Post #399 in those 3 games where China was killed or nearly killed ?

I'm asking, because I tend to setup China not like this at all, and I would like to know if you had similary high China kill rates with Chinese setup in the mountains east of Chungking and east / southeast of Kweiyang. I never tried such forward Chinese setup in any of my CWiF games.

[Froonp]

In onegame the chineese army was encircled and put OOS outside Chang-sa, and the japanaeese could preyy much ignore it and just walk around it (we were playing with the isolation option).

The extra cities will hopefully avoid this gamey result of a Chinese Army in its home country being put out of supply too easily, because of the loss of 1 city.

This strengthen me in my opinion of the more Chinese cities the better.
This is gonna change my vote for Hengyang (2 hexes S of Changsha, on the rail) for which I voted NO previously [:D].

[c92nichj]

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

I agree with you that in CWiF China falls or is severely mauled more often than not.

But, the first winter is coming and CWiF issued 2 Communist Mils to start. In the winter Japan will be slowed down in speed and attacks. The Chinese forces will have some time to build up.

In the winter you launch your southern offensive, wher it is good weather. In the north you stop the attacking but walking forward in the snow works well, the chineese are in no position to counterattack anyhow.

Lending resources and BP's can also assist China even if Chinese attack weakness is used.

The proposed map with the extra cities and warlord additions should also help to cost Japan more losses and to slow down their advances.

I agree on this I think that the new map goes a long way of assisting CHina in the defense.

Having to expend more effort and BP's for the China war ought to make Japan a little less formidable against the USA later on. I have come around to think this is good, in CWiF Japan has been very strong in the Pacific in my experience with CWiF. past and present.
Lars

Japan was indeed very strong in three of my games the ones where she succeeded in blowing china to pieces in the game where the china lived to see the Pacific campaign start she was very weak and was on the defensive from the start.

I said this many times before but I feel that the new map favours the one who gets an upper hand.

[c92nichj]

I have not voted before but as I feel the vote needs to be consider in conjuntion with what will be done to help playbalance on both japan and chineese side.

But Anyhow I thought I give my votes.


North portion
New Cities on the map
Ankang: No
Ningsia: no
Sining: Yes
Tinshui Yes
Tungkwan: No
Yennan: Yes (for the historical feel)


Coastal portion
New Cities on the map
Anking: No
Kaifeng: No
Nanchang: Yes
Nanyang: No
Paoting: No
Suchow: Yes
Wuhsing: yes

New Minor Ports on the map
Chefoo (Minor Port) (2 hexes NE of Tsingtao): Yes
Tsingkow (Minor Port) (was Xinhailian): Yes
Wenchow (2 hexes NE of Foochow): Yes


Existing Cities modified
Hangchow becoming a Minor Port: No
Wuhan Moved 1 hex NW (should be named Hankow ?): Yes
Macao becoming a city: No


Coastal portion
New Cities on the map
Chihkiang (was Chihchiang) + river south moved: Yes very important for supply porposes if we only added one city I would add this one
Kweilin: Yes

New Minor Ports on the map
Amoy (port) (2 hexes SW of Foochow): Yes
Pakhoi (Port): Yes (this port will change the game quite a bit you are now abe to launch an offensive against Kweiyang without controlling the railroad between Canton and Nanning)
Swatow (3 hexes E of Canton): Yes

Cities Refused (not on the map)
Kwangchowan (Port): Yes


Dianquan/Dianqian (port) (2 hexes SW of Foochow): yes

[lomyrin]

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

I agree with you that in CWiF China falls or is severely mauled more often than not.

But, the first winter is coming and CWiF issued 2 Communist Mils to start. In the winter Japan will be slowed down in speed and attacks. The Chinese forces will have some time to build up.

In the winter you launch your southern offensive, wher it is good weather. In the north you stop the attacking but walking forward in the snow works well, the chineese are in no position to counterattack anyhow.


Yes, the normal Japanese operations are indeed to attack in the south during the winter, your setup seems to be almost entirely against the Communists in the north.

Lars

[Froonp]

Thanks for the votes [:D].

ullern, Incy, Shannon, you might review post #357 and vote for the rare ones you have not voted for yet (who were in the latest additions, such as Kaifeng (hex E of Chengchow), Wuhsing, the Treaty ports).

Yohan, you have only expressed "NO" votes for 3 cities (Anking, Ningsia (was Yinchuan), Sining), would you mind completing the review and vote for the others too, so that you don't have a negative only impact on the statistics [:)] ?

tm.asp?m=1140817&mpage=12&key=

We reached about 10 voters.

The biggest changes since last evaluation, are that :
Decreased :
- Anking is no longer on the map (40% YES only)
- Kaifeng is no longer on map 1 (the one with the few cities added), only on map 2 (67% YES)
- Ningsia is barely on map (50% YES)
- Hangchow would barely be a added minor port (50% YES)
- Macao would not be a city in map 1, only on map 2 (57% YES)

Increased :
- Chihkiang (was Chihchiang) is barely back on map 1 (78% YES)
- The Treaty ports (Amoy, Chefoo, Pakhoi, Tsingkow, Swatow, Wenchow) are much appreciated (89%-100%)

[Froonp]

ullern, Incy, Shannon, you might review post #357 and vote for the rare ones you have not voted for yet (who were in the latest additions, such as Kaifeng (hex E of Chengchow), Wuhsing, the Treaty ports).

Yohan, you have only expressed "NO" votes for 3 cities (Anking, Ningsia (was Yinchuan), Sining), would you mind completing the review and vote for the others too, so that you don't have a negative only impact on the statistics ?

tm.asp?m=1140817&mpage=12&key=

We reached about 10 voters.

I would not like to sound as if I only wanted votes from those people I cited above.

Everyone with an opinion about China, WiF FE, MWiF, is warranted and welcomed to post votes.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Patrice,

To make your life easier, I agree with all of Borger's votes except one - (the man's a genius, he agrees with me!). Why he got that one vote wrong I do not understand: Hengyang - No.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
To make your life easier, I agree with all of Borger's votes except one - (the man's a genius, he agrees with me!). Why he got that one vote wrong I do not understand: Hengyang - No.

I take that this is for the votes you did not express already, because you diverge from him on some cities for which you voted some time ago : Ningsia, Sining, Suchow, Yennan (you already said NO, he said YES)
[:D]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
To make your life easier, I agree with all of Borger's votes except one - (the man's a genius, he agrees with me!). Why he got that one vote wrong I do not understand: Hengyang - No.

I take that this is for the votes you did not express already, because you diverge from him on some cities for which you voted some time ago : Ningsia, Sining, Suchow, Yennan (you already said NO, he said YES)
[:D]

No. Actually, I mean to change my votes to match his. I have read all the discussion on the pros and cons that different people have put forth and have changed my mind on some. More information makes for better decisions.

[Incy]

Paochi (was Baoji) (was 2 hexes W of Sian) (deleted) (0 YES, 5 Voters) (NO : Froonp, Wosung, ullern, lomyrin, Shannon) YES
Paotow (End of the rail going NW from Taiyuan) (deleted) (0 YES, 5 Voters) (NO : Froonp, Wosung, ullern, lomyrin, Shannon) NO (will help chinese outflanking moves to much)
Kweisui (hex E of Paotow) (proposal) (0 voters) NO (same as for Paotow)
Kaifeng (hex E of Chengchow) (2 YES, 2 Voters) (YES : Froonp, Wosung) YES (but no strong feeling)
Chefoo (Minor Port) (2 hexes NE of Tsingtao) (1 YES, 1 Voters) (YES : Froonp) YES (looks like big port facilities on google)
Wenchow (2 hexes NE of Foochow) (1 YES, 1 Voters) (YES : Froonp) YES (good for japanese supply, and it seems to be a big port)
NB Maybe there should be a river NE+NW of Wenchow?
Macao becoming a city (not done) (2 YES, 3 Voters) (YES : Wosung, Incy | No : Froonp)* Acually I'm willing to reconsider this, as it will be a powerful air-base with a city in it (and din't play any significant role during war. We don't want Portugal pulled in just because of macau)

New City: Jianling(Sashi) 3 hexes SW of Nanyang, where Yangtze is printed on map (reason: This looks like a reasonable-sized city, and currently there is no good supply source in the area between the Yangtze and HangKiang, which is an important bit of front real estate, and also the area between/along those rivers seem to have good infrastructure ans heavy population, but there are no cities)
Ichang (3 hexes W of Wuhan) (proposal) (0 voters) NO (Yianling seems the bigger, and I don't think both are waranted) YES if no Yianling

Kalgan (hex NW of Peking) (proposal) (0 YES, 1 voters) (NO : Froonp) NO, but I think rail coming from NW mountains should connect through that hex
Swatow (3 hexes E of Canton) (1 YES, 1 Voters) (YES : Froonp) YES
Chungking moved southwards (not done, alternative solution partly adopted because of Incy comments with Google Earth) (1 YES, 3 Voters) (YES : ullern | No : Froonp, Shannon) NO
Hengyang (2 hexes S of Changsha, on the rail) (proposal) (1 YES, 5 Voters) (YES : Wosung | No : Froonp, ullern, lomyrin, Shannon)YES
(or replace with Xiangtan 1 hex SW of Changsha, whichj seems bigger)

Amoy (port) (2 hexes SW of Foochow) (1 YES, 1 Voters) (YES : Froonp) YES YES
Dianquan/Dianqian (port) (2 hexes SW of Foochow) (proposal) (0 voters) This is the same as Xiamen/Amoy ??

[YohanTM2]

I have one comment for those who discuss CWiF as part of the analysis on MWiF for China. It is flawed. The game was flawed and there is no where enough statistical data to make a valid analysis.

Patrice, I think it is time to draw a line in the sand and call the map with hte current votes. Let the play testers have at it.

Steve, not sure if you are interested but based on the divergence from WiF FE perhaps you should pull together a group of 4 playtesters to just test China/Jap (and Russia) on the new map.

I think there may be a few volunteers here...

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Yohan

I have one comment for those who discuss CWiF as part of the analysis on MWiF for China. It is flawed. The game was flawed and there is no where enough statistical data to make a valid analysis.

Patrice, I think it is time to draw a line in the sand and call the map with hte current votes. Let the play testers have at it.

Steve, not sure if you are interested but based on the divergence from WiF FE perhaps you should pull together a group of 4 playtesters to just test China/Jap (and Russia) on the new map.

I think there may be a few volunteers here...

There is a subset of the beta testers already planning on doing that. Thanks anyway.

If too few of the current beta testers get involved, ...