Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic

[Tropsbor]

Not only they make gameplay harder but they are insulting to the Romanian soldiers who died in combat. I realize this is just a game but we can say just to many things (just a movie, just a book, just words, etc.) so where does it start and where does it end? The stats as they are now suggest that Romanian soldiers fled the battlefield when "shit hit the fan" and couldn't distinguish a rifle from a pencil eraser. I may be exaggerating but not by much. I'm not asking you to increase the stats to make everyone happy. This has nothing to do with political correctness. It's inconceivable that Romania is rated so low in a WWII game (behind Bulgaria?[X(]). I know this issue has been brought before by another member and I didn't say much then because after all I expected something to be done (even the slightest change) in 8.3 and 8.4 but so far nothing. My advice to whoever put these numbers: if you're not sure, ask, because inputting "random" numbers won't make the game better. If you disagree feel free to say why using arguments and sources otherwise don't bother because I'm tired of stupid oversimplifactions of the genre: "they sucked because they couldn't hold the Soviets at Stalingrad" almost word for word of what someone from the staff told me. Honestly I expected smarter comments from someone representing MG.

Thank you [:)]

// LEADER EXPERIENCE
// 1939 to 1945
{70,75,75,75,70,65,60}, //GERMAN
{70,70,70,65,65,60,60}, //FINNISH
{30,30,35,35,30,25,25}, //ITALIAN
{30,30,30,30,25,20,20}, //RUMANIAN
{35,35,35,35,30,25,25}, //HUNGARIAN
{70,70,70,70,70,70,70}, //JAPANESE
{40,40,40,40,35,35,35}, //FRENCH
{50,50,55,55,60,60,60}, //BRITISH
{45,45,45,50,50,50,55}, //BELGIUM
{45,45,45,50,50,50,55}, //DUTCH
{45,45,50,55,60,65,65}, //POLISH
{30,35,40,45,50,55,60}, //SOVIET
{40,40,45,50,55,50,55}, //US ARMY
{55,55,55,60,65,70,70}, //US MARINE
{25,25,25,30,35,40,40}, //CHINESE
{45,45,45,50,55,60,60}, //GREEK
{45,45,40,45,45,45,45}, //NORWEIGAN
{40,40,40,45,50,55,50}, //YUGOSLAVIAN
{55,55,55,60,60,65,65}, //CANADA
{45,50,55,55,60,60,60}, //INDIA
{55,55,55,60,65,65,65}, //ANZAC
{40,40,55,60,55,60,60}, //FREE FRENCH
{25,25,25,25,25,35,45}, //COMMUNIST CHINA
{50,55,55,55,55,60,60}, //CZECHOSLOVAKIA
{40,40,45,60,55,60,55}, //PHILIPINNES
{45,50,50,50,50,55,55}, //NATIONALIST SPAIN
{45,50,50,50,50,55,55}, //REPUBLICAN SPAIN
{30,30,35,35,30,25,25}, //BULGARIA

// LEADER MORALE
// 1939 to 1945
{70,70,70,70,70,65,50}, //GERMAN
{70,70,70,65,65,60,55}, //FINNISH
{40,35,35,35,30,25,25}, //ITALIAN
{35,35,35,40,35,30,25}, //RUMANIAN
{35,35,40,45,40,35,30}, //HUNGARIAN
{70,70,70,70,70,70,70}, //JAPANESE
{40,40,35,35,30,30,30}, //FRENCH
{60,60,60,60,60,60,55}, //BRITISH
{45,45,45,50,55,60,55}, //BELGIUM
{45,45,45,50,55,60,55}, //DUTCH
{60,55,50,55,60,65,60}, //POLISH
{35,40,45,50,55,60,65}, //SOVIET
{40,40,45,50,55,60,60}, //US ARMY
{55,55,60,65,70,70,70}, //US MARINE
{35,35,35,40,40,40,40}, //CHINESE
{60,60,60,55,60,65,65}, //GREEK
{45,45,40,45,50,55,55}, //NORWEIGAN
{40,40,40,45,50,55,60}, //YUGOSLAVIAN
{65,65,65,65,65,65,65}, //CANADA
{45,45,45,50,50,55,55}, //INDIA
{65,65,65,65,65,65,65}, //ANZAC
{40,40,55,60,55,60,55}, //FREE FRENCH
{35,35,35,40,40,45,45}, //COMMUNIST CHINA
{45,45,40,45,50,55,55}, //CZECHOSLOVAKIA
{40,40,55,60,55,60,55}, //PHILIPINNES
{45,45,40,45,50,55,55}, //NATIONALIST SPAIN
{45,45,40,45,50,55,55}, //REPUBLICAN SPAIN
{35,35,40,45,40,35,30}, //BULGARIA

// TROOPS EXPERIENCE
// 1939 to 1945
{65,70,75,70,65,60,55}, //GERMAN
{70,70,70,65,65,60,60}, //FINNISH
{35,35,40,40,35,30,30}, //ITALIAN
{35,35,35,35,30,25,25}, //RUMANIAN
{35,35,35,35,30,30,30}, //HUNGARIAN
{70,70,70,70,65,60,55}, //JAPANESE
{45,45,45,45,40,40,40}, //FRENCH
{50,50,50,55,60,60,60}, //BRITISH
{45,45,45,50,50,50,55}, //BELGIUM
{45,45,45,50,50,50,55}, //DUTCH
{45,45,50,55,60,65,65}, //POLISH
{35,40,45,50,55,60,60}, //SOVIET
{40,40,40,45,50,55,60}, //US ARMY
{50,50,50,55,60,65,70}, //US MARINE
{30,30,30,35,40,40,40}, //CHINESE
{45,45,45,50,55,60,60}, //GREEK
{45,45,40,45,45,45,45}, //NORWEIGAN
{40,40,40,45,50,55,50}, //YUGOSLAVIAN
{50,50,50,55,60,65,65}, //CANADA
{40,45,50,55,55,60,60}, //INDIA
{50,50,50,55,60,65,65}, //ANZAC
{45,45,50,55,50,55,60}, //FREE FRENCH
{30,35,40,40,45,45,55}, //COMMUNIST CHINA
{45,50,50,50,50,50,50}, //CZECHOSLOVAKIA
{35,35,40,40,45,50,50}, //PHILIPINNES
{35,40,50,50,50,50,50}, //NATIONALIST SPAIN
{35,35,35,35,35,35,35}, //REPUBLICAN SPAIN
{35,40,45,45,40,35,35}, //BULGARIA

// TROOPS MORALE
// 1939 to 1945
{70,70,70,70,70,65,50}, //GERMAN
{70,70,70,65,65,60,55}, //FINNISH
{40,35,35,35,30,25,25}, //ITALIAN
{35,35,35,40,35,30,25}, //RUMANIAN
{35,35,40,45,40,35,30}, //HUNGARIAN
{70,70,70,70,70,70,70}, //JAPANESE
{40,40,35,35,30,30,30}, //FRENCH
{60,60,60,60,60,60,55}, //BRITISH
{45,45,45,50,55,60,55}, //BELGIUM
{45,45,45,50,55,60,55}, //DUTCH
{60,55,50,55,60,65,60}, //POLISH
{35,40,45,50,55,60,65}, //SOVIET
{40,40,45,50,55,60,60}, //US ARMY
{55,55,60,65,70,70,70}, //US MARINE
{35,35,35,40,40,40,40}, //CHINESE
{60,60,60,55,60,65,65}, //GREEK
{45,45,40,45,50,55,55}, //NORWEIGAN
{40,40,40,45,50,55,60}, //YUGOSLAVIAN
{65,65,65,65,65,65,65}, //CANADA
{45,45,45,50,50,55,55}, //INDIA
{65,65,65,65,65,65,65}, //ANZAC
{40,40,55,60,55,60,55}, //FREE FRENCH
{35,35,35,35,35,35,35}, //CZECHOSLOVAKIA
{25,25,20,20,25,30,30}, //PHILIPINNES
{40,45,45,45,45,45,45}, //NATIONALIST SPAIN
{35,35,35,35,35,35,35}, //REPUBLICAN SPAIN
{25,25,30,30,25,25,25}, //BULGARIA

[serg3d]

Hmm, and how would you rate Romania ? It start with the same rating as Soviet Union (which is not exactly historical IMO - Soviet Union should be better then that) and decrease gradually (not too fast). Are you telling that Romania troop quality actually increased during the war ? Or it should start considerably better then Soviet Uniuon ? Like what country ? Like Ygoslavian or Polish troops ? I doubt it - Polish and Ygo troops actually  fought Germans, not Russians, didn't crumble at once, and offered stiff resistance. Like French ? Here I agree. But I  think the French rating should be lowered. French defenetly didn't resisted the same as Ygo or Polish. You can argue that the problem was not with exp/moral of Romanian troops but with weapon/ammo, in this case you can just consider ammo shortrage and weapon quality incorporated into troop quality.

[Korpraali V]

Tropsbor: You may want to try SPWAW Enhanced Mod and its ratings. You'll find it at the Depot www.spwaw.com

[Puukkoo]

Not only they are mispelled as Rumanians, but those ratings are ridiculously low. Some people have even talked about "racism" etc...

There has been a long thread at least once before this on the exp/morale ratings and certainly Romanians should fight much better than that - in a battle they act like they're tossing away their rifles and run away.

I've been reading about Romanian Vanatori de munte and they did their fighting as well as any other nation's elite troops; at times even better.

[Gunter_Viezenz]

But it is true that the Romanian troops were of low quality, thats why they were taken out of barbarossa because they proformed so horribly.

[Korpraali V]

Taken out of Barbarossa?? When? I thought they fought until the nation surrendered and switched sides.

One good source for Romania in WWII is http://www.worldwar2.ro/

[Tropsbor]

ORIGINAL: serg3d

Hmm, and how would you rate Romania ?

Let's ask German officers familiar with Romanian troops [8D]

"From the beginning of the eastern campaign, the Romanian army contributed many troops to the operations. They fought bravely under german command and succeded in their tasks. If in 1942 were formed two Romanian armies, it was because the Romanian troops assigned to various german armies in Podolia, Donetz bassin, Crimeea, Caucasus etc. , fought exceptionally well. The modest Romanian soldier fought bravely and 2 Romanian divisions shared the fate of 6th Army at Stalingrad. The fall of the Romanian fronts in the Don's Bend and the Calmuc Steppe is the responsability of the German High Command who, in their arrogant ignorance, gave their allies missions they couldn't fulfill." (Colonel Hans Doerr)

"I owe a particular mention to the romanian formations that fought in the ranks of my army. When these troops were normally supported by heavy weapons, like the ones that supported the german infantryman, they fought bravely under the command of their officers and endured everything with notable patience." (marshall Paulus)

After World War II I asked my friend General Hans Speidel, who had commanded various mixed Axis contingents and became Field Marshal Rommel's chief-of-staff: "Which among all the non-German troops were the best soldiers: the Finns, the Croats, the Hungarians?" "None of them," he said: "the Rumanians. Give them good leadership and they are as good as any you'll find. (Cyrus L. Sulzberger)

"I have already shown what could and could not be expected of Romanian troops in various situations. But they were still our best allies and did fight bravely in many places." (marshall von Manstein)

ORIGINAL: serg3d

Are you telling that Romania troop quality actually increased during the war ?

No but take for example troop experience which decreases from 35 to 30 in 1943. Wouldn't it make more sense to leave it at 35 or to change it to 40 since the only units left on the front during that year were mostly Mountain and Cavalry divisions which had a good reputation? These units were untouched by the Stalingrad debacle because when this happened they were on their way to Grozny and Baku with Army Group A and they were the "cream of the crop" of the Romanian army. If you're not convinced see the list of RK they received.

http://www.feldgrau.com/romkc.html

ORIGINAL: serg3d

Or it should start considerably better then Soviet Uniuon ? Like what country ?

For starters, Romania accomplished what no other German ally (except Japan) could: successfuly conduct a large scale operation with little or no German help - capture of Odessa
Yet Romania is among the poorest nations in terms of experience and morale and it's THE poorest in 45. I smell a lot of bullshit.

ORIGINAL: serg3d

You can argue that the problem was not with exp/moral of Romanian troops but with weapon/ammo, in this case you can just consider ammo shortrage and weapon quality incorporated into troop quality.

You're not making sense. Weapon quality is already modelled in the game thus it shouldn't reflect on the troop quality.

ORIGINAL: serg3d

Polish and Ygo troops actually fought Germans, not Russians, didn't crumble at once, and offered stiff resistance

Are you suggesting that Romanian troops "crumbled at once" and fled before the Soviets? I hope you will prove this in your next post.

But this and what Gunter_Viezenz wrote below really top it. Now I remember why I quit playing SP:WaW. The community here is awfully ignorant and MG seems to support this.

No Gunter, Romanians weren't taken out. Actually Antonescu (Romanian marshall) was the first to know the plans and exact date of the invasion and Romanians and Finns were the only ones to take part in it from the beginning. And the Romanian Army had always maintained two armies on the front, except in 1943, though there were still over 150,000 men fighting on the front during that year.

[Alby]

Those Ratings listed above are the NOT the ratings used in SPWAW Enhanced.
these are.

NEW LEADER EXPERIENCE
45/45/50/60/65/60/60// RUMANIAN

NEW LEADER MORALE
45/45/45/50/45/40/40// RUMANIAN

NEW TROOP MORALE
60/60/65/65/60/60/55// RUMANIAN

NEW TROOP EXPERIENCE
50/55/60/65/65/60/60// RUMANIAN

Under German influence, Romanian troops must gain some experience points but can not equal Germans in experience.
Romania and other minor Nations should have low leadership values until they actually enter the war, then be influenced by their allied partner.

They may be right , they may be wrong and I will not get into another ratings debate.
We at least wanted them to be playable in the game.

[Orzel Bialy]

Hate to sound like an echo...but go try the Enhanced Mod. [:D]

The values for the Romanian troops (and others) were adjusted on a more (what many feel) historical level. They are not super human in the new mod...but they aren't door-mats anymore either. [8D]

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Tropsbor

ORIGINAL: serg3d

Hmm, and how would you rate Romania ?

Let's ask German officers familiar with Romanian troops [8D]

"From the beginning of the eastern campaign, the Romanian army contributed many troops to the operations. They fought bravely under german command and succeded in their tasks. If in 1942 were formed two Romanian armies, it was because the Romanian troops assigned to various german armies in Podolia, Donetz bassin, Crimeea, Caucasus etc. , fought exceptionally well. The modest Romanian soldier fought bravely and 2 Romanian divisions shared the fate of 6th Army at Stalingrad. The fall of the Romanian fronts in the Don's Bend and the Calmuc Steppe is the responsability of the German High Command who, in their arrogant ignorance, gave their allies missions they couldn't fulfill." (Colonel Hans Doerr)

"I owe a particular mention to the romanian formations that fought in the ranks of my army. When these troops were normally supported by heavy weapons, like the ones that supported the german infantryman, they fought bravely under the command of their officers and endured everything with notable patience." (marshall Paulus)

After World War II I asked my friend General Hans Speidel, who had commanded various mixed Axis contingents and became Field Marshal Rommel's chief-of-staff: "Which among all the non-German troops were the best soldiers: the Finns, the Croats, the Hungarians?" "None of them," he said: "the Rumanians. Give them good leadership and they are as good as any you'll find. (Cyrus L. Sulzberger)

"I have already shown what could and could not be expected of Romanian troops in various situations. But they were still our best allies and did fight bravely in many places." (marshall von Manstein)

ORIGINAL: serg3d

Are you telling that Romania troop quality actually increased during the war ?

No but take for example troop experience which decreases from 35 to 30 in 1943. Wouldn't it make more sense to leave it at 35 or to change it to 40 since the only units left on the front during that year were mostly Mountain and Cavalry divisions which had a good reputation? These units were untouched by the Stalingrad debacle because when this happened they were on their way to Grozny and Baku with Army Group A and they were the "cream of the crop" of the Romanian army. If you're not convinced see the list of RK they received.

http://www.feldgrau.com/romkc.html

ORIGINAL: serg3d

Are you telling that Romania troop quality actually increased during the war ?

For starters, Romania accomplished what no other German ally (except Japan) could: successfuly conduct a large scale operation with little or no German help - capture of Odessa
Yet Romania is among the poorest nations in terms of experience and morale and it's THE poorest in 45. I smell a lot of bullshit.

ORIGINAL: serg3d

You can argue that the problem was not with exp/moral of Romanian troops but with weapon/ammo, in this case you can just consider ammo shortrage and weapon quality incorporated into troop quality.

You're not making sense. Weapon quality is already modelled in the game thus it shouldn't reflect on the troop quality.

ORIGINAL: serg3d

Are you telling that Romania troop quality actually increased during the war ?

Are you suggesting that Romanian troops "crumbled at once" and fled before the Soviets? I hope you will prove this in your next post.

But this and what Gunter_Viezenz wrote below really top it. Now I remember why I quit playing SP:WaW. The community here is awfully ignorant and MG seems to support this.

No Gunter, Romanians weren't taken out. Actually Antonescu (Romanian marshall) was the first to know the plans and exact date of the invasion and Romanians and Finns were the only ones to take part in it from the beginning. And the Romanian Army had always maintained two armies on the front, except in 1943, though there were still over 150,000 men fighting on the front during that year.

Excellent points, and many of us agree with you totally..Again, you need to acquire the "Enhanced Mod"!!!!![;)]

[TheDesertRat]

Not sure how this looks but this is the overall comparision

8.2 and 8.3--------------8.4 and 8.403------------enhanced,,,,,,,
39,40,41,42,43,44,45 ... 39,40,41,42,43,44,45 ... 39,40,41,42,43,44,45
LEADER EXPERIENCE
70,75,75,75,70,65,60 ... 70,75,75,75,70,65,60 ... 70,75,75,75,75,75,70// GERMAN
70,70,70,70,65,60,60 ... 70,70,70,65,65,60,60 ... 70,70,70,70,65,60,60// FINNISH
30,30,35,40,30,30,30 ... 30,30,35,35,30,25,25 ... 60,55,55,70,60,60,65// ITALIAN
30,30,35,35,30,25,25 ... 30,30,30,30,25,20,20 ... 45,45,50,60,65,60,60// RUMANIAN
40,40,45,45,45,40,35 ... 35,35,35,35,30,25,25 ... 45,45,45,45,45,45,45// HUNGARIAN
65,65,75,70,70,70,65 ... 70,70,70,70,70,70,70 ... 75,75,75,75,75,75,75// JAPANESE
45,45,50,50,50,50,50 ... 40,40,40,40,35,35,35 ... 70,70,70,70,65,70,75// FRENCH
50,55,60,60,60,65,70 ... 50,50,55,55,60,60,60 ... 70,70,65,65,70,70,75// BRITISH
40,40,45,45,45,45,45 ... 45,45,45,50,50,50,55 ... 60,65,65,65,65,65,70// BELGIUM
30,30,35,35,35,35,35 ... 45,45,45,50,50,50,55 ... 60,70,70,70,65,65,70// DUTCH
50,55,55,55,55,60,60 ... 45,45,50,55,60,65,65 ... 55,60,65,65,65,70,70// POLISH
35,45,50,55,60,60,60 ... 30,35,40,45,50,55,60 ... 40,45,65,65,65,70,70// SOVIET
40,45,50,60,65,70,70 ... 40,40,45,50,55,50,55 ... 45,45,50,55,60,65,70// US ARMY
45,50,60,65,70,70,70 ... 55,55,55,60,65,70,70 ... 60,60,60,60,65,70,75// US MARINE
25,25,25,30,35,40,35 ... 25,25,25,30,35,40,40 ... 45,45,45,55,55,60,60// CHINESE
45,45,50,50,50,55,50 ... 45,45,45,50,55,60,60 ... 45,50,50,55,55,55,50// GREEK
40,40,45,45,45,45,45 ... 45,45,40,45,45,45,45 ... 45,50,75,75,75,75,70// NORWEIGAN
30,30,35,35,30,25,25 ... 40,40,40,45,50,55,50 ... 45,45,45,45,45,45,45// YUGOSLAVIAN
50,60,65,65,65,65,65 ... 55,55,55,60,60,65,65 ... 45,45,45,60,70,75,75// CANADA
40,40,45,45,45,45,45 ... 45,50,55,55,60,60,60 ... 70,70,70,70,70,70,70// INDIA
50,60,60,65,65,65,65 ... 55,55,55,60,65,65,65 ... 45,70,65,65,70,70,70// ANZAC
40,40,55,60,60,65,65 ... 40,40,55,60,55,60,60 ... 70,70,70,70,65,70,75// FREE FRENCH
25,25,25,25,25,35,45 ... 25,25,25,25,25,35,45 ... 45,45,45,55,55,60,65// COMMUNIST CHINA
50,55,55,55,55,60,60 ... 50,55,55,55,55,60,60 ... 50,55,70,70,70,70,65// CZECHOSLOVAKIA
40,40,45,60,55,60,55 ... 40,40,45,60,55,60,55 ... 45,45,45,60,55,60,55// PHILIPINNES
45,50,50,50,50,55,55 ... 45,50,50,50,50,55,55 ... 45,50,50,50,50,55,55// NATIONALIST SPAIN
45,50,50,50,50,55,55 ... 45,50,50,50,50,55,55 ... 45,50,50,50,50,55,55// REPUBLICAN SPAIN
30,30,35,35,30,25,25 ... 30,30,35,35,30,25,25 ... 45,45,45,45,45,45,45// BULGARIA
LEADER MORALE
65,70,70,70,70,65,50 ... 70,70,70,70,70,65,50 ... 65,70,75,75,75,75,70// GERMAN
65,70,70,65,65,60,55 ... 70,70,70,65,65,60,55 ... 65,70,70,70,70,70,70// FINNISH
45,40,40,45,35,35,35 ... 40,35,35,35,30,25,25 ... 60,55,60,65,65,65,60// ITALIAN
35,35,35,40,35,30,25 ... 35,35,35,40,35,30,25 ... 45,45,45,50,45,40,40// RUMANIAN
40,45,45,45,45,40,35 ... 35,35,40,45,40,35,30 ... 50,55,55,55,55,50,45// HUNGARIAN
65,70,70,75,75,75,75 ... 70,70,70,70,70,70,70 ... 70,70,70,75,75,75,70// JAPANESE
40,40,35,35,30,30,30 ... 40,40,35,35,30,30,30 ... 65,65,60,55,55,60,60// FRENCH
60,60,60,60,60,60,55 ... 60,60,60,60,60,60,55 ... 65,65,60,65,70,70,75// BRITISH
45,45,50,50,50,50,50 ... 45,45,45,50,55,60,55 ... 55,60,60,65,65,70,70// BELGIUM
40,40,45,45,45,45,45 ... 45,45,45,50,55,60,55 ... 55,65,65,65,65,70,70// DUTCH
50,55,50,55,60,65,65 ... 60,55,50,55,60,65,60 ... 65,65,60,65,65,70,70// POLISH
35,40,45,50,55,60,65 ... 35,40,45,50,55,60,65 ... 55,60,65,65,70,75,75// SOVIET
45,50,55,65,75,75,75 ... 40,40,45,50,55,60,60 ... 45,50,55,55,60,65,70// US ARMY
60,65,65,70,75,80,80 ... 55,55,60,65,70,70,70 ... 60,60,60,65,70,70,75// US MARINE
35,35,35,40,40,40,35 ... 35,35,35,40,40,40,40 ... 65,60,55,55,60,60,65// CHINESE
60,60,60,55,60,65,65 ... 60,60,60,55,60,65,65 ... 50,60,50,50,50,50,60// GREEK
45,45,40,45,50,55,55 ... 45,45,40,45,50,55,55 ... 45,70,75,75,75,75,70// NORWEIGAN
40,40,40,45,50,55,60 ... 40,40,40,45,50,55,60 ... 45,55,50,50,50,50,55// YUGOSLAVIAN
65,65,65,65,65,65,65 ... 65,65,65,65,65,65,65 ... 50,65,60,60,65,70,70// CANADA
45,45,45,50,50,55,55 ... 45,45,45,50,50,55,55 ... 65,70,70,65,65,70,70// INDIA
65,65,65,65,65,65,65 ... 65,65,65,65,65,65,65 ... 50,65,70,65,65,70,70// ANZAC
40,40,55,60,55,60,55 ... 40,40,55,60,55,60,55 ... 65,65,60,55,55,60,60// FREE FRENCH
35,35,35,40,40,45,45 ... 35,35,35,40,40,45,45 ... 65,60,55,55,60,65,65// COMMUNIST CHINA
45,45,40,45,50,55,55 ... 45,45,40,45,50,55,55 ... 65,60,75,75,75,75,70// CZECHOSLOVAKIA
40,40,55,60,55,60,55 ... 40,40,55,60,55,60,55 ... 50,50,50,60,60,65,55// PHILIPINNES
45,45,40,45,50,55,55 ... 45,45,40,45,50,55,55 ... 60,60,55,60,60,60,50// NATIONALIST SPAIN
45,45,40,45,50,55,55 ... 45,45,40,45,50,55,55 ... 55,60,55,55,55,55,60// REPUBLICAN SPAIN
35,35,40,45,40,35,30 ... 35,35,40,45,40,35,30 ... 45,45,50,55,50,45,45// BULGARIA
TROOPS EXPERIENCE
60,65,70,70,70,65,60 ... 65,70,75,70,65,60,55 ... 55,65,70,70,70,65,65// GERMAN
65,65,70,70,70,70,70 ... 70,70,70,65,65,60,60 ... 55,60,65,65,65,70,65// FINNISH
50,55,60,65,60,55,55 ... 35,35,40,40,35,30,30 ... 55,60,60,65,70,65,65// ITALIAN
45,50,55,55,50,50,50 ... 35,35,35,35,30,25,25 ... 50,55,60,65,65,60,60// RUMANIAN
45,50,60,60,55,55,50 ... 35,35,35,35,30,30,30 ... 50,55,60,65,65,60,60// HUNGARIAN
60,65,70,70,70,65,65 ... 70,70,70,70,65,60,55 ... 60,60,65,70,70,70,70// JAPANESE
50,55,60,65,70,70,70 ... 45,45,45,45,40,40,40 ... 55,65,60,60,65,65,65// FRENCH
55,60,65,65,65,70,70 ... 50,50,50,55,60,60,60 ... 55,60,65,65,70,70,70// BRITISH
45,50,55,55,55,55,55 ... 45,45,45,50,50,50,55 ... 55,60,60,55,60,60,65// BELGIUM
45,45,50,50,50,50,50 ... 45,45,45,50,50,50,55 ... 55,60,65,65,70,70,65// DUTCH
55,55,55,55,55,55,60 ... 45,45,50,55,60,65,65 ... 55,65,65,65,70,65,65// POLISH
50,55,60,65,70,70,70 ... 35,40,45,50,55,60,60 ... 50,55,60,65,70,70,70// SOVIET
55,60,65,70,70,70,70 ... 40,40,40,45,50,55,60 ... 55,55,55,60,65,70,70// US ARMY
60,65,70,75,75,75,75 ... 50,50,50,55,60,65,70 ... 55,55,55,60,70,70,70// US MARINE
45,50,55,55,60,60,55 ... 30,30,30,35,40,40,40 ... 45,50,50,50,55,65,65// CHINESE
45,55,60,65,65,65,65 ... 45,45,45,50,55,60,60 ... 55,60,65,60,55,65,65// GREEK
45,55,60,60,60,60,60 ... 45,45,40,45,45,45,45 ... 50,60,65,70,70,65,65// NORWEIGAN
45,50,50,50,50,50,50 ... 40,40,40,45,50,55,50 ... 45,50,55,55,60,65,60// YUGOSLAVIAN
55,65,70,70,70,70,70 ... 50,50,50,55,60,65,65 ... 50,50,55,60,65,70,70// CANADA
45,50,55,60,60,65,65 ... 40,45,50,55,55,60,60 ... 55,60,65,70,70,70,70// INDIA
55,65,65,70,70,70,70 ... 50,50,50,55,60,65,65 ... 50,60,65,70,70,70,70// ANZAC
50,55,65,65,70,70,70 ... 45,45,50,55,50,55,60 ... 55,65,65,65,60,65,65// FREE FRENCH
40,45,50,50,55,55,65 ... 30,35,40,40,45,45,55 ... 50,50,50,50,55,65,65// COMMUNIST CHINA
55,60,60,60,60,60,60 ... 45,50,50,50,50,50,50 ... 55,65,65,65,65,65,65// CZECHOSLOVAKIA
45,45,50,50,55,60,60 ... 35,35,40,40,45,50,50 ... 50,55,55,55,65,65,65// PHILIPINNES
45,50,60,60,60,60,60 ... 35,40,50,50,50,50,50 ... 50,60,60,60,65,65,65// NATIONALIST SPAIN
45,45,45,45,45,45,45 ... 35,35,35,35,35,35,35 ... 45,50,55,55,50,50,50// REPUBLICAN SPAIN
45,50,55,55,50,45,45 ... 35,40,45,45,40,35,35 ... 45,50,55,55,50,50,50// BULGARIA
TROOPS MORALE
70,70,70,70,70,70,65 ... 70,70,70,70,70,65,50 ... 75,75,70,65,70,70,65// GERMAN
70,70,70,70,70,70,65 ... 70,70,70,65,65,60,55 ... 75,70,70,65,65,70,70// FINNISH
65,65,60,60,55,65,65 ... 40,35,35,35,30,25,25 ... 75,65,70,70,65,65,60// ITALIAN
55,55,60,60,55,50,45 ... 35,35,35,40,35,30,25 ... 60,60,65,65,60,60,55// RUMANIAN
60,60,65,65,60,55,50 ... 35,35,40,45,40,35,30 ... 60,60,70,70,70,60,55// HUNGARIAN
70,70,70,75,75,70,70 ... 70,70,70,70,70,70,70 ... 75,75,75,75,75,75,70// JAPANESE
60,60,65,65,65,65,65 ... 40,40,35,35,30,30,30 ... 70,70,60,60,65,75,75// FRENCH
60,65,65,65,70,70,75 ... 60,60,60,60,60,60,55 ... 70,70,70,70,70,70,80// BRITISH
55,60,60,60,60,60,60 ... 45,45,45,50,55,60,55 ... 70,70,60,65,70,70,75// BELGIUM
55,55,55,55,55,55,60 ... 45,45,45,50,55,60,55 ... 70,70,60,65,65,70,75// DUTCH
60,60,65,65,65,70,70 ... 60,55,50,55,60,65,60 ... 75,70,65,65,70,70,75// POLISH
50,55,60,65,70,70,75 ... 35,40,45,50,55,60,65 ... 75,65,65,65,70,75,75// SOVIET
60,60,65,70,70,70,70 ... 40,40,45,50,55,60,60 ... 60,60,65,75,70,70,75// US ARMY
65,65,65,70,75,75,75 ... 55,55,60,65,70,70,70 ... 65,65,70,70,70,70,75// US MARINE
60,60,60,60,60,60,55 ... 35,35,35,40,40,40,40 ... 70,65,60,65,65,70,70// CHINESE
55,60,65,65,65,65,65 ... 60,60,60,55,60,65,65 ... 55,55,55,55,50,50,65// GREEK
55,60,65,65,65,65,65 ... 45,45,40,45,50,55,55 ... 55,55,70,65,70,70,70// NORWEIGAN
55,55,55,55,55,55,60 ... 40,40,40,45,50,55,60 ... 55,55,70,55,50,60,65// YUGOSLAVIAN
60,65,75,70,70,70,75 ... 65,65,65,65,65,65,65 ... 60,75,70,75,70,75,75// CANADA
55,55,55,60,60,65,65 ... 45,45,45,50,50,55,55 ... 70,70,70,65,65,70,70// INDIA
60,65,65,65,70,70,75 ... 65,65,65,65,65,65,65 ... 60,70,70,65,65,70,70// ANZAC
60,60,65,65,65,70,70 ... 40,40,55,60,55,60,55 ... 70,70,70,65,60,75,75// FREE FRENCH
55,55,55,55,55,55,65 ... 25,25,20,20,25,30,30 ... 70,65,60,65,65,70,75// COMMUNIST CHINA
65,65,65,65,65,65,65 ... 35,35,35,35,35,35,35 ... 75,75,70,65,70,70,70// CZECHOSLOVAKIA
55,55,50,50,55,60,60 ... 25,25,20,20,25,30,30 ... 55,55,55,55,65,70,65// PHILIPINNES
60,65,65,65,65,65,65 ... 40,45,45,45,45,45,45 ... 75,65,65,65,65,65,65// NATIONALIST SPAIN
55,55,55,55,55,55,55 ... 35,35,35,35,35,35,35 ... 75,65,65,65,60,60,70// REPUBLICAN SPAIN
55,55,60,60,55,45,45 ... 25,25,30,30,25,25,25 ... 60,60,65,65,60,55,55// BULGARIA

[soldier]

The H2H values are also worth comparing and are quite good
LEADER EXPERIENCE
70,75,75,75,70,65,60// GERMAN
70,70,70,70,65,60,60// FINNISH
30,30,35,40,30,30,30// ITALIAN
30,30,35,35,30,25,25// RUMANIAN
40,40,45,45,45,40,35// HUNGARIAN
55,55,55,60,60,60,55// JAPANESE
35,45,45,50,50,50,55// FRENCH
50,55,60,60,60,65,70// BRITISH
40,40,45,45,45,45,45// BELGIUM
30,30,35,35,35,35,35// DUTCH
50,55,55,55,55,60,60// POLISH
35,45,45,50,50,50,55// SOVIET
40,40,45,50,55,60,60// US ARMY
45,45,50,55,60,65,70// US MARINE
25,25,25,30,35,40,35// CHINESE
45,45,50,50,50,55,50// GREEK
40,40,75,75,70,65,60// NORWEIGAN
46,46,35,35,30,25,25// YUGOSLAVIAN
50,50,50,55,55,60,65// CANADA
40,40,45,45,45,45,45// INDIA
50,50,55,60,60,65,65// ANZAC
40,40,55,60,60,65,65// FREE FRENCH
25,25,25,25,25,35,45// COMMUNIST CHINA
50,55,55,55,55,60,60// CZECHOSLOVAKIA
40,40,45,60,55,60,55// PHILIPINNES
45,50,50,50,50,55,55// NATIONALIST SPAIN
45,50,50,50,50,55,55// REPUBLICAN SPAIN
30,30,35,35,30,25,25// BULGARIA
LEADER MORAL
65,70,70,70,70,65,50// GERMAN
65,70,70,65,65,60,55// FINNISH
45,40,40,45,35,35,35// ITALIAN
35,35,35,40,35,30,25// RUMANIAN
40,45,45,45,45,40,35// HUNGARIAN
65,70,70,75,75,75,75// JAPANESE
40,40,35,35,30,30,30// FRENCH
60,60,60,60,60,60,55// BRITISH
45,45,50,50,50,50,50// BELGIUM
40,40,45,45,45,45,45// DUTCH
50,55,50,55,60,65,65// POLISH
35,40,45,50,55,60,65// SOVIET
45,50,55,65,75,75,75// US ARMY
60,65,65,70,75,80,80// US MARINE
35,35,35,40,40,40,35// CHINESE
60,60,60,55,60,65,65// GREEK
45,45,75,75,75,70,65// NORWEIGAN
40,40,40,45,50,55,60// YUGOSLAVIAN
65,65,65,65,65,65,65// CANADA
45,45,45,50,50,55,55// INDIA
65,65,65,65,65,65,65// ANZAC
40,40,55,60,55,60,55// FREE FRENCH
35,35,35,40,40,45,45// COMMUNIST CHINA
45,45,40,45,50,55,55// CZECHOSLOVAKIA
40,40,55,60,55,60,55// PHILIPINNES
45,45,40,45,50,55,55// NATIONALIST SPAIN
45,45,40,45,50,55,55// REPUBLICAN SPAIN
35,35,40,45,40,35,30// BULGARIA
TROOP EXPERIENCE
65,70,75,75,75,70,65// GERMAN
70,70,75,75,75,75,75// FINNISH
55,60,65,70,65,60,60// ITALIAN
50,55,60,65,55,55,55// RUMANIAN
50,55,65,65,60,60,55// HUNGARIAN
65,70,75,75,75,75,70// JAPANESE
55,60,60,65,65,65,70// FRENCH
60,65,70,70,70,75,75// BRITISH
45,50,55,55,55,55,55// BELGIUM
45,45,50,50,50,50,50// DUTCH
60,60,60,60,60,60,65// POLISH
55,60,60,65,65,65,70// SOVIET
55,55,55,60,65,70,75// US ARMY
60,60,60,65,70,75,80// US MARINE
45,50,55,55,60,60,55// CHINESE
45,55,60,65,65,65,65// GREEK
45,55,75,75,75,70,65// NORWEIGAN
45,50,50,50,50,50,50// YUGOSLAVIAN
55,55,60,60,65,65,70// CANADA
45,50,55,60,60,65,65// INDIA
55,55,60,60,65,70,70// ANZAC
50,55,65,65,70,70,70// FREE FRENCH
40,45,50,50,55,55,65// COMMUNIST CHINA
55,60,60,60,60,60,60// CZECHOSLOVAKIA
45,45,50,50,55,60,60// PHILIPINNES
45,50,60,60,60,60,60// NATIONALIST SPAIN
45,45,45,45,45,45,45// REPUBLICAN SPAIN
45,50,55,55,50,45,45// BULGARIA
TROOP MORALE
85,85,85,85,85,85,80// GERMAN
85,85,85,85,85,85,80// FINNISH
80,80,75,75,70,80,80// ITALIAN
70,70,75,75,70,65,60// RUMANIAN
75,75,80,80,75,70,65// HUNGARIAN
85,85,85,90,90,85,85// JAPANESE
75,75,80,80,80,80,80// FRENCH
75,80,80,80,85,80,75// BRITISH
70,75,75,75,75,75,75// BELGIUM
70,70,70,70,70,70,75// DUTCH
75,75,80,80,80,85,85// POLISH
65,70,75,80,85,85,90// SOVIET
75,75,80,85,85,85,85// US ARMY
80,80,80,85,90,90,90// US MARINE
75,75,75,75,75,75,70// CHINESE
70,75,80,80,80,80,80// GREEK
70,75,85,85,85,85,80// NORWEIGAN
70,70,70,70,70,70,75// YUGOSLAVIAN
75,80,90,85,85,85,90// CANADA
70,70,70,75,75,80,80// INDIA
75,80,80,80,85,85,90// ANZAC
75,75,80,80,80,85,85// FREE FRENCH
70,70,70,70,70,70,80// COMMUNIST CHINA
80,80,80,80,80,80,80// CZECHOSLOVAKIA
70,70,65,65,70,75,75// PHILIPINNES
75,80,80,80,80,80,80// NATIONALIST SPAIN
70,70,70,70,70,70,70// REPUBLICAN SPAIN
70,70,75,75,70,60,60// BULGARIA

[azraelck]

I believe it is Korpraali V who has an AAR showing exactly what the Romanians are capable of with proper tactics, and I believe this battle predates the Enhanced mod as well, so this is stock 8.x values. I was impressed, and will probably eventually start a Romanian game myself.

tm.asp?m=1152572

[Korpraali V]

Thanks azraelck!

My Romanian campaign is played with 8.4. Of course my troops are very experienced by now, most are either average or veteran levels. Starting battles in summer 41 were hard and very costly. Now the biggest problem is the lack of good equipments. That probably tells something about the real history. For example - if I remember it right - R-2 with 37mm gun was the main battle tank of Romanian forces until 1943 or 1944. That tells something about the issue. No matter how good you are, 37mm gun will never penetrate T-34's armour. So their biggest problem definately wasn't the lack of experience or courage.

[Alby]

you shoulda had some PZ 4 f2s avalable in 42
[:D]

[Korpraali V]

ORIGINAL: Alby

you shoulda had some PZ 4 f2s avalable in 42
[:D]

Only after July... *sigh*

But after the last battle I got few rare Pz-IIIj (s) models![8D]

[Gunter_Viezenz]

Im am sorry tropsbor, I did not mean to offend or direscpt you or the Romanians with my misinformed post. Please accept my apoligy.

I was basing it off what I was told and from previous ocasions.

I ahve been reading articles liek this one tonight http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=75. I completely see why you would be frustrated with someone making false accustions like that.

But since I was wrong would that also mean what I know of the Romanians at D-day is also false? I guess I will have to look into it.

Edit: actually I make a mistake it was the Hungarian not the Romanian.[:(]

[Mau Fox]

ORIGINAL: serg3d
You can argue that the problem was not with exp/moral of Romanian troops but with weapon/ammo, in this case you can just consider ammo shortrage and weapon quality incorporated into troop quality.

That's untrue, serg3d, since every weapon and vehicle, in this game, has been modelled (more or less) following its real characteristic.

Ammo load out/weapons quality and morale/experience values are two separated topics ...

Personally I do think that, being SPWaW a tactical game, morale and experience should be provided by the "Gamer" himself allowing national weaponry and vehicles to make the difference.

Remember, when put in a corner, even the mouse can roar. [;)]

Mau Fox.

[Puukkoo]

And it's always the average experience rating that causes problems. Let's say that if you fight with a force that has seen combat and participated several campaigns you do not use similar values for those than you use for second line garrison forces. In reality 'average' does not exsists, it's thoroughly a relative concept.

But since 8.4 is an 'official' issue it is taken to mean as some sort of declaration -- if some nations have poor ratings it is a mistake to take it to mean a general rule for that particular nation. H2H and Ench Mod use almost the same ratings for each nation but it's only because of playability cause. In a real war it happened tha elite forces of 100 points of average experience occasionally faced second rate conscripts with experience of 30 and squeezed them. In H2H and Ench Mod nobody wants to play the weaker side, they want average vs average matches.

[baevans99]

Pretty much the same topic here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=939403&mpage=1&key=romanian