Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
ORIGINAL: mantill
OK, enough with the half time commentary lets get on with the second half. [:D]
I recently stumbled across this affair of concentrating all your carriers into a single hex for a huge airbattle and I'm not sure I like it. it basically favors whomever can concentrate the most numbers, leaving planes types and pilots to take a backseat.ORIGINAL: Feinder
I'm not sure that I agree that massing all CVs is all that "un-historical".
PH, certainly all of them were massed.
Midway, Japan would have loved to have Shok and Zui, but due to damage and lack of pilots/planes, these guys missed the party.
I dunno. Maybe putting all the dogs in the same kennel wasn't in the plan. But I don't think it's fair that "that wasn't the intent", when we really don't know what the intent was.
True enough, WitP abyssmally handles "large" air combats. It can one or two CVs vs. each other just fine. But it can't even handle the scale of historical Midway. It think it does marr the games playablilty, esp since players (and I think their historical counterparts), were indeed funnelled into massing larger CVs formations. It's the "logical" arms race (if you can call it that), and unfortunately, the game doesn't handle it well.
I don't think it's fair to call it "gamey" or whatever to mass CVs. I think our historical counterparts might well have been funnelled into the same situation (as evidenced as the war progressed). It's unfortunate that WitP doesn't handle it well, but then again, the players know what they're getting into (a likely bloody, lopsided affair). You take your chance and you roll the dice.
-F-
See the Marianas Turkey Shoot. TF 58 was certainly concentrated into a space that was considerably smaller than one of our infamous 60-mile hexes.ORIGINAL: aletoledo
can 11 carriers of any size really fit into a 60 mile hex? I know its a stupid question and they physically can, but did they ever operate in such a confined space? why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust?
ORIGINAL: aletoledo
I recently stumbled across this affair of concentrating all your carriers into a single hex for a huge airbattle and I'm not sure I like it. it basically favors whomever can concentrate the most numbers, leaving planes types and pilots to take a backseat.ORIGINAL: Feinder
I'm not sure that I agree that massing all CVs is all that "un-historical".
PH, certainly all of them were massed.
Midway, Japan would have loved to have Shok and Zui, but due to damage and lack of pilots/planes, these guys missed the party.
I dunno. Maybe putting all the dogs in the same kennel wasn't in the plan. But I don't think it's fair that "that wasn't the intent", when we really don't know what the intent was.
True enough, WitP abyssmally handles "large" air combats. It can one or two CVs vs. each other just fine. But it can't even handle the scale of historical Midway. It think it does marr the games playablilty, esp since players (and I think their historical counterparts), were indeed funnelled into massing larger CVs formations. It's the "logical" arms race (if you can call it that), and unfortunately, the game doesn't handle it well.
I don't think it's fair to call it "gamey" or whatever to mass CVs. I think our historical counterparts might well have been funnelled into the same situation (as evidenced as the war progressed). It's unfortunate that WitP doesn't handle it well, but then again, the players know what they're getting into (a likely bloody, lopsided affair). You take your chance and you roll the dice.
-F-
can 11 carriers of any size really fit into a 60 mile hex? I know its a stupid question and they physically can, but did they ever operate in such a confined space? why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust?
why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust?
CAP is just too brutal in the game as it stands now. If one is going to include such concepts as uncoordinated strikes, the same sort of breakdown needs to be modelled for CAP. It was not simply a numbers game as it is currently modelled. Strikes basically came in from one direction while CAP was orbiting a TF and even with fighter direction, much CAP never actually engaged the incoming strikes. CAP needs to be redone at the very least with maybe 1/4 of undirected CAPtotals being made available for incoming intercepts and directed CAP possibly 1/2 of total aircraft aloft.
And operational launch values need to be given to carriers to reflect their handling capacity so that more realistic strike packages and ready CAP reinforcements are the norm. It blows me away that some old piece of junk like Ryujo with a mere to small elevators can have the same ability to handle aircraft as Shokaku.
ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust?
Well, i suppose if you were willing to have rules that said one bomb would wipe out an airbase as a single hit could do in a carrier... (i.e. Akagi supposedly destroyed by a single direct hit (according to Shattered Sword))...
Things were VERY concentrated on a carrier, leaving them extraordinarily vulnerable to being knocked out by damage a good sized air base will barely notice.
ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust?
Well, i suppose if you were willing to have rules that said one bomb would wipe out an airbase as a single hit could do in a carrier... (i.e. Akagi supposedly destroyed by a single direct hit (according to Shattered Sword))...
Things were VERY concentrated on a carrier, leaving them extraordinarily vulnerable to being knocked out by damage a good sized air base will barely notice.
But ever wonder why they modelled aircraft handling penalties for airbases but totally ignored carriers?
ORIGINAL: irrelevant
CAP is just too brutal in the game as it stands now. If one is going to include such concepts as uncoordinated strikes, the same sort of breakdown needs to be modelled for CAP. It was not simply a numbers game as it is currently modelled. Strikes basically came in from one direction while CAP was orbiting a TF and even with fighter direction, much CAP never actually engaged the incoming strikes. CAP needs to be redone at the very least with maybe 1/4 of undirected CAPtotals being made available for incoming intercepts and directed CAP possibly 1/2 of total aircraft aloft.
And operational launch values need to be given to carriers to reflect their handling capacity so that more realistic strike packages and ready CAP reinforcements are the norm. It blows me away that some old piece of junk like Ryujo with a mere to small elevators can have the same ability to handle aircraft as Shokaku.
The A2A, CV ops, and CV strike coordination models certainly do leave a lot to be desired. Although I have to say that over the course of an entire day, Ryujo (or any CV) could certainly be expected to launch all her aircraft (and recover any survivors). Part of the problem is one of scale. The one day turn has led to some choices that don't feel right to many of us (strikes composed of entire air groups, interceptions made by 100% of CAP) simply because over the course of a day, all the aircraft could have participated in strikes, all the fighters could have made interceptions, etc. Unfortunately, these choices combined with the strike coordination rule make for some unrealistically vicious interceptions by CAP, and do not allow sufficiently for strike packages that manage to largely evade CAP.
Again, a good work-around is to limit CAP to 30-40%.
ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
Well, i suppose if you were willing to have rules that said one bomb would wipe out an airbase as a single hit could do in a carrier... (i.e. Akagi supposedly destroyed by a single direct hit (according to Shattered Sword))...
Things were VERY concentrated on a carrier, leaving them extraordinarily vulnerable to being knocked out by damage a good sized air base will barely notice.
But ever wonder why they modelled aircraft handling penalties for airbases but totally ignored carriers?
Wouldn't say that they did - trying putting 2X capacity on a carrier and see what happens to operations... [:'(]
ORIGINAL: Feinder
I'm not sure that I agree that massing all CVs is all that "un-historical".
PH, certainly all of them were massed.
Midway, Japan would have loved to have Shok and Zui, but due to damage and lack of pilots/planes, these guys missed the party.
I dunno. Maybe putting all the dogs in the same kennel wasn't in the plan. But I don't think it's fair that "that wasn't the intent", when we really don't know what the intent was.
True enough, WitP abyssmally handles "large" air combats. It can one or two CVs vs. each other just fine. But it can't even handle the scale of historical Midway. It think it does marr the games playablilty, esp since players (and I think their historical counterparts), were indeed funnelled into massing larger CVs formations. It's the "logical" arms race (if you can call it that), and unfortunately, the game doesn't handle it well.
I don't think it's fair to call it "gamey" or whatever to mass CVs. I think our historical counterparts might well have been funnelled into the same situation (as evidenced as the war progressed). It's unfortunate that WitP doesn't handle it well, but then again, the players know what they're getting into (a likely bloody, lopsided affair). You take your chance and you roll the dice.
-F-
ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
ORIGINAL: aletoledo
I recently stumbled across this affair of concentrating all your carriers into a single hex for a huge airbattle and I'm not sure I like it. it basically favors whomever can concentrate the most numbers, leaving planes types and pilots to take a backseat.ORIGINAL: Feinder
I'm not sure that I agree that massing all CVs is all that "un-historical".
PH, certainly all of them were massed.
Midway, Japan would have loved to have Shok and Zui, but due to damage and lack of pilots/planes, these guys missed the party.
I dunno. Maybe putting all the dogs in the same kennel wasn't in the plan. But I don't think it's fair that "that wasn't the intent", when we really don't know what the intent was.
True enough, WitP abyssmally handles "large" air combats. It can one or two CVs vs. each other just fine. But it can't even handle the scale of historical Midway. It think it does marr the games playablilty, esp since players (and I think their historical counterparts), were indeed funnelled into massing larger CVs formations. It's the "logical" arms race (if you can call it that), and unfortunately, the game doesn't handle it well.
I don't think it's fair to call it "gamey" or whatever to mass CVs. I think our historical counterparts might well have been funnelled into the same situation (as evidenced as the war progressed). It's unfortunate that WitP doesn't handle it well, but then again, the players know what they're getting into (a likely bloody, lopsided affair). You take your chance and you roll the dice.
-F-
can 11 carriers of any size really fit into a 60 mile hex? I know its a stupid question and they physically can, but did they ever operate in such a confined space? why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust?
CAP is just too brutal in the game as it stands now. If one is going to include such concepts as uncoordinated strikes, the same sort of breakdown needs to be modelled for CAP. It was not simply a numbers game as it is currently modelled. Strikes basically came in from one direction while CAP was orbiting a TF and even with fighter direction, much CAP never actually engaged the incoming strikes. CAP needs to be redone at the very least with maybe 1/4 of undirected CAPtotals being made available for incoming intercepts and directed CAP possibly 1/2 of total aircraft aloft.
And operational launch values need to be given to carriers to reflect their handling capacity so that more realistic strike packages and ready CAP reinforcements are the norm. It blows me away that some old piece of junk like Ryujo with a mere to small elevators can have the same ability to handle aircraft as Shokaku.
I'll use the Marianas Turkey Shoot reference this time. How many IJN aircraft went down without getting near the US carriers? Again just my 2 cents worth.
ORIGINAL: BrucePowers
ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
ORIGINAL: aletoledo
I recently stumbled across this affair of concentrating all your carriers into a single hex for a huge airbattle and I'm not sure I like it. it basically favors whomever can concentrate the most numbers, leaving planes types and pilots to take a backseat.
can 11 carriers of any size really fit into a 60 mile hex? I know its a stupid question and they physically can, but did they ever operate in such a confined space? why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust?
CAP is just too brutal in the game as it stands now. If one is going to include such concepts as uncoordinated strikes, the same sort of breakdown needs to be modelled for CAP. It was not simply a numbers game as it is currently modelled. Strikes basically came in from one direction while CAP was orbiting a TF and even with fighter direction, much CAP never actually engaged the incoming strikes. CAP needs to be redone at the very least with maybe 1/4 of undirected CAPtotals being made available for incoming intercepts and directed CAP possibly 1/2 of total aircraft aloft.
And operational launch values need to be given to carriers to reflect their handling capacity so that more realistic strike packages and ready CAP reinforcements are the norm. It blows me away that some old piece of junk like Ryujo with a mere to small elevators can have the same ability to handle aircraft as Shokaku.
Ron;
I'll use the Marianas Turkey Shoot reference this time. How many IJN aircraft went down without getting near the US carriers? Again just my 2 cents worth.
ORIGINAL: irrelevant
CAP is just too brutal in the game as it stands now. If one is going to include such concepts as uncoordinated strikes, the same sort of breakdown needs to be modelled for CAP. It was not simply a numbers game as it is currently modelled. Strikes basically came in from one direction while CAP was orbiting a TF and even with fighter direction, much CAP never actually engaged the incoming strikes. CAP needs to be redone at the very least with maybe 1/4 of undirected CAPtotals being made available for incoming intercepts and directed CAP possibly 1/2 of total aircraft aloft.
And operational launch values need to be given to carriers to reflect their handling capacity so that more realistic strike packages and ready CAP reinforcements are the norm. It blows me away that some old piece of junk like Ryujo with a mere to small elevators can have the same ability to handle aircraft as Shokaku.
The A2A, CV ops, and CV strike coordination models certainly do leave a lot to be desired. Although I have to say that over the course of an entire day, Ryujo (or any CV) could certainly be expected to launch all her aircraft (and recover any survivors). Part of the problem is one of scale. The one day turn has led to some choices that don't feel right to many of us (strikes composed of entire air groups, interceptions made by 100% of CAP) simply because over the course of a day, all the aircraft could have participated in strikes, all the fighters could have made interceptions, etc. Unfortunately, these choices combined with the strike coordination rule make for some unrealistically vicious interceptions by CAP, and do not allow sufficiently for strike packages that manage to largely evade CAP.
Again, a good work-around is to limit CAP to 30-40%.
