Big showdown comming.

[tsimmonds]

but the slaughter was because of MASSIVE numbers of CAP which compensated for the inability for all CAP fighters to be at the point of contact

Excellent point; even at this point in the development of the art of fighter direction, what portion of the IJN losses were inflicted by what fraction of the USN CAP, and what portion of the USN CAP failed to make any contact with IJN aircraft at all?

[Przemcio231]

It looks like he lost a goodly number of fighters (and pilots too?). That could hurt.

Well he definetly lost them unless they can swim back 240 miles... or more[:D]

[MarcA]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust?

Well, i suppose if you were willing to have rules that said one bomb would wipe out an airbase as a single hit could do in a carrier... (i.e. Akagi supposedly destroyed by a single direct hit (according to Shattered Sword))...

Things were VERY concentrated on a carrier, leaving them extraordinarily vulnerable to being knocked out by damage a good sized air base will barely notice.

Several months ago treespider started an excellent thread where he listed many CV, CVL and CVE's destroyed with one hit. For my part I give you CVL Princeton. (Over 200 men died on CL Birmingham when the Pirnccetons bomb store exploded ).

Princeton, in TG 38.3, cruised off Luzon and sent her planes against airfields there to prevent Japanese land based aircraft attacks on Allied ships massed in Leyte Gulf. On the 24th however, enemy planes from Clark and Nichols fields found TG 38.3 and reciprocated. Shortly before 1000, a lone enemy dive bomber came out of the clouds above Princeton. At 1500 feet the pilot released his bomb. It hit between the elevators, crashed through the flight deck and hangar, then exploded. Initial fires soon expanded as further explosions sent black smoke rolling off the flight deck and red flames along the sides from the island to the stern. Covering vessels provided rescue and fire-fighting assistance and shielded the stricken carrier from further attack. At 1524, another, much heavier explosion, possibly the bomb magazine, blew off the carrier's stern and with it the after flight deck. The cruiser Birmingham (CL-62), alongside to fight fires, suffered heavy damage and casualties.

Efforts to save Princeton continued, but at 1604 the fires won. Boats were requested to take off remaining personnel and shortly after 1706, Irwin (DD-794) began to fire torpedoes at the burning hulk.

Quote from Wikpedia

[MarcA]

ORIGINAL: aletoledo

can 11 carriers of any size really fit into a 60 mile hex? I know its a stupid question and they physically can, but did they ever operate in such a confined space? why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust?

On my visit of CV Intrepid one of the old boys who use to serve abaord was manning the captains bridge. I asked him over what area the entire CV task force usually covered. According to this man the entire TF, including 4 CV's were concnetrated within one miles radius [X(].

[RAM]

one thing I never understood was why to waste torpedos on sinking a burning hulk...

If it's going to founder anyway, what's the reason to throw useful torpedos which can be needed elsewhere ?

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: RAM

one thing I never understood was why to waste torpedos on sinking a burning hulk...

If it's going to founder anyway, what's the reason to throw useful torpedos which can be needed elsewhere ?

Always the possibility that the enemy may decide to board a ship, possibly finding something useful (like overlooked orders or coding stuff)...

[Mike Solli]

Not to mention it doesn't hurt as much when you scuttle your ships. Just like in WitP.....[:'(]

[BrucePowers]

Never leave anything your enemy might find useful. Just think of all the stuff the British and Americans got off of U-Boats. I don't remember the one the Brits got, but we got the U-505. From what I understand, it was a gold mine (and can now be seen in Chicago).

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: RAM

one thing I never understood was why to waste torpedos on sinking a burning hulk...

If it's going to founder anyway, what's the reason to throw useful torpedos which can be needed elsewhere ?

Ever been pissed and agree to just one more drink? Even worse, a shooter!

[sprior]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: RAM

one thing I never understood was why to waste torpedos on sinking a burning hulk...

If it's going to founder anyway, what's the reason to throw useful torpedos which can be needed elsewhere ?

Ever been pissed and agree to just one more drink? Even worse, a shooter!

Far too many times...

[aletoledo]

ORIGINAL: mantill

ORIGINAL: aletoledo

can 11 carriers of any size really fit into a 60 mile hex? I know its a stupid question and they physically can, but did they ever operate in such a confined space? why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust?

On my visit of CV Intrepid one of the old boys who use to serve abaord was manning the captains bridge. I asked him over what area the entire CV task force usually covered. According to this man the entire TF, including 4 CV's were concnetrated within one miles radius [X(].

interesting! so I suppose (as everyone has always said) the fault doesn't lie in the number of carriers, but the hugh number of planes.

I suppose as Ron has also pointed out, that if the CAP didn't all get a shot at shooting at every wave and every plane, we might get more realistic results from the large formations.

do people play with a common rule regarding this? I've read (in this thread) two alternate ideas. 1) set a maximum allowed CAP at 40% or 2) not allow escort carriers to operate with fleet carriers.

[anarchyintheuk]

To an extent WitP-like cap slaughter didn't occur in '42 because it couldn't. The six-pack was never formed and during the few times that KB was formed and was laying waste to the IO/Australia they weren't subject to much in the way of air attacks. It's difficult to project how effective the cap for either would have been.

Unfortunately, due the lack of cv-cv affairs in '43 it's even harder to gauge the rate at which cap increased its effectiveness.

The above in no way endorses the current a2a/cap fu. [;)]

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

To an extent WitP-like cap slaughter didn't occur in '42 because it couldn't. The six-pack was never formed and during the few times that KB was formed and was laying waste to the IO/Australia they weren't subject to much in the way of air attacks. It's difficult to project how effective the cap for either would have been.

Even in the IO Raid - aircraft penetrated the KB CAP and bombed the KB - and weren't detected before the bombs started landing around the carriers! Unfortunately for the Allies, they were Blenheims, not dive bombers, or the war might have had a different course.

[RAM]

if that's the main reason (to avoid the enemy to put hands on valuable things aboard the ship) then why did the Japanese finish off the USS Hornet instead of boarding it?

[1275psi]

Just had a carrier battle against BZpanzer

We play 40% max cap house rule
CVL Zuiho, Shoho and CVE Taiyo on a convoy raid ran into the yorktown and lexington[8|]

japan actually had 10% CAP -wanted max chance of the Kates getting through if the "convoy" I had spotted did have a surprise -which it did[8|]
41 zeros escorted 12 kates and 4 Jakes against 17 Wildcat CAP - the jakes got a hit[8|], 6 kate dropped torps -but missed
The 40% rule seemed pretty realistic.

His strike had predictable results - all 3 carriers are sunk very quickly[:@].
40% CAP seems a fair house rule to at least allow strikes through.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: RAM

if that's the main reason (to avoid the enemy to put hands on valuable things aboard the ship) then why did the Japanese finish off the USS Hornet instead of boarding it?

Never heard an explanation, but the USN had just been trying to sink her (Hornet), and i think she was pretty much an inferno when the IJN DDs found her.

[esteban]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: RAM

if that's the main reason (to avoid the enemy to put hands on valuable things aboard the ship) then why did the Japanese finish off the USS Hornet instead of boarding it?

Never heard an explanation, but the USN had just been trying to sink her (Hornet), and i think she was pretty much an inferno when the IJN DDs found her.

As I recall, the Hornet's screen fired something like 150 5" shells into her, plus several torpedos, but had to withdraw to avoid being destroyed by the oncoming Japanese.

Also, the Franklin was nearly sunk by one bomb in 1945. I think that the catastrophic fires that she survived were caused by a 250 KG bomb dropped from a Judy.

[wild_Willie2]

Ok things are winding down, today I finally got a coordinated strike in on his transports (his carriers are near tarawa).



Day Air attack on TF, near Maloelap at 82,81

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 10
B5N Kate x 6
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 11

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 19
F4U-1 Corsair x 11

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 1 damaged
B5N Kate: 6 damaged
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 10 destroyed
F4U-1 Corsair: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged

Allied Ships
AK John C. Calhoun
AK Joseph Holt, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Maloelap at 82,81

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 24
B5N Kate x 71
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 42

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 9
F4U-1 Corsair x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N Kate: 1 destroyed, 32 damaged
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 4 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 7 destroyed
F4U-1 Corsair: 11 destroyed

Allied Ships
AK Mana
AK Andrew D. White, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Manulani, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Case, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
AK San Vincente, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK Waipo, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Mormaclark, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Cummings, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
AK Donald McKay
DD Tucker
AK Arthur Riggs, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
MSW Penguin, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AK Archbishop Lamy
AK Maine

5 ships sank that turn.....

[BrucePowers]

So, who do you consider the winner, tactically and strategically?

[Przemcio231]

well we just agreed with willie that he will allow me to transport the units that teleported during the landing back... with no opposition[:)] any way i achived my objective...