Modifications to MWiF China Map portion

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Unless someone comes up with better information, I'll make an executive decision here and say that the Japanese do not get Nanchang at the start of the Global War scenario.

I have another half dozen scenarios that are gonig to need start lines in China at different times of the war. If someone has access to information to help make those decisions, I would be most appreciative.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Unless someone comes up with better information, I'll make an executive decision here and say that the Japanese do not get Nanchang at the start of the Global War scenario.

See : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nanchang
Bottom line :
Nanchang Campaign (Mid Feb. - Early May 1939) 300.000 Chinese and 60.000 Japanese involved Japanese occupied Nanchang.
From the map of China in the Times Atlas of WWII, Nanchang is Jap conquered on the 27 March 1939.

I have another half dozen scenarios that are gonig to need start lines in China at different times of the war. If someone has access to information to help make those decisions, I would be most appreciative.

The frontlines didn't move a lot from 40-44. I guess that all start lines can be guessed at from the 1939 ones.
I'll see if there is something more precise in the book I'm about to receive that Wosuing used so much as a source (Oxford Companion to World War II).

[composer99]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: c92nichj
Strategy might be crazy but will it be effective?

It doesn't really matter if USSR production reaches 10, it will gain a bit with manchurian factory and two japaneese resources, including lendlease from China. How many VP cities are lost by abandoning European Russia? More than will be gained by an early kill of Japan?

I don't think this startegy could be effective in WIFFE? I have rolled the german armour all the way to Sverdlovsk and outside Tashkent in CWIF, before my opponent gave up, it is much further away than in WIFFE, and just to march there will take you a long time.

It is also harder to actually kick japan of the mainland in WIFFE as manchuria has some quite decent terrain and you can keep a continous frontline of 6-7 hexes.
With the new map you can just walk around any defenders.

How much of England are you willing to lose? How much of the Med? If Germany doesn't have to fight the USSR it might find something else to do with all those build points. I certainly would. If the USA entry is being delayed because the Japanese are not taking any Chinese cities, etc., then the CW justs has to hold on by its lonesome I guess. And China is doing lend lease to the USSR?

I agree with Patrice. Your strategy would be a nightmare for the Japanese but a wonderful bonanza for the Germans and therefore a nightmare for the CW and therefore a bonanza for the Italians. Without the USSR to put pressure on from the east, all of Europe becomes Axis.

I concur. For all the objectives on the Asia-Pacific maps, Japan is still a secondary power in the Axis. The war against Germany will make or break the Allied game, and the Red Army is the principal engine of that war. Throw it away to cripple Japan while simultaneously letting the Germans run over as much of Russia as they please, and Germany and Italy will be impossible to defeat, and, for shame, Italy will outproduce the Soviet Union.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

For the start line, do you have a month in 1939 associated with it? Best would be having something around the end of the summer, September 1st, 1939.

I searched the Internet and found the following forum thread with lots of info about the
Sino-Japanese war:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0

From this forum thread I copied a map image from 15 November 1939. That is pretty
close to September 1939. The graphical quality is not very high, but the front lines
should be easy to spot.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Unless someone comes up with better information, I'll make an executive decision here and say that the Japanese do not get Nanchang at the start of the Global War scenario.

As you see from this map Nanchang was already captured by the Japanese. From this
forum I read the following:

On 29 March 1939, the Japanese made a swift surprise attack against the Chinese
defenders of Nanchang and took possession of the capital of Kiangsi Province, keypoint
on the Chekiang-Hunan railway, which had been a major air base in Central China since
the beginning of the war. This was the last operation of any importance.

So maybe Nanchang should be on the Japanese side of the frontline for the Global
Campaign?

[c92nichj]

ORIGINAL: composer99

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: c92nichj
Strategy might be crazy but will it be effective?

It doesn't really matter if USSR production reaches 10, it will gain a bit with manchurian factory and two japaneese resources, including lendlease from China. How many VP cities are lost by abandoning European Russia? More than will be gained by an early kill of Japan?

I don't think this startegy could be effective in WIFFE? I have rolled the german armour all the way to Sverdlovsk and outside Tashkent in CWIF, before my opponent gave up, it is much further away than in WIFFE, and just to march there will take you a long time.

It is also harder to actually kick japan of the mainland in WIFFE as manchuria has some quite decent terrain and you can keep a continous frontline of 6-7 hexes.
With the new map you can just walk around any defenders.

How much of England are you willing to lose? How much of the Med? If Germany doesn't have to fight the USSR it might find something else to do with all those build points. I certainly would. If the USA entry is being delayed because the Japanese are not taking any Chinese cities, etc., then the CW justs has to hold on by its lonesome I guess. And China is doing lend lease to the USSR?

I agree with Patrice. Your strategy would be a nightmare for the Japanese but a wonderful bonanza for the Germans and therefore a nightmare for the CW and therefore a bonanza for the Italians. Without the USSR to put pressure on from the east, all of Europe becomes Axis.

I concur. For all the objectives on the Asia-Pacific maps, Japan is still a secondary power in the Axis. The war against Germany will make or break the Allied game, and the Red Army is the principal engine of that war. Throw it away to cripple Japan while simultaneously letting the Germans run over as much of Russia as they please, and Germany and Italy will be impossible to defeat, and, for shame, Italy will outproduce the Soviet Union.

If the game is about holding objective cities, Japan is as important as Germany and Italy combined.
I don't think that USSR are dead if they abandon all European USSR (it is quite possible to come back in normal WIF if you have been kicked back to the Caucasus and Volga, cannot see why it should be harder if you had manchuria as an extra roduction base), and I don't think it would be that much easier to go for a Sealion, unless you do it '42 and then the CW has quite some time to prepare, she will not be facing japan, so all effort can be spent on defending England and the rock.

To win thegame you don't have to defeat Germany Italy you only need to reduce them to 15 objective cities(+- whatever they bid), so if the axis are bidding agressively this might be quite a decent approach, probably not the best one, but an alternative.

[composer99]

If the game is about holding objective cities, Japan is as important as Germany and Italy combined.
I don't think that USSR are dead if they abandon all European USSR (it is quite possible to come back in normal WIF if you have been kicked back to the Caucasus and Volga, cannot see why it should be harder if you had manchuria as an extra roduction base), and I don't think it would be that much easier to go for a Sealion, unless you do it '42 and then the CW has quite some time to prepare, she will not be facing japan, so all effort can be spent on defending England and the rock.

To win thegame you don't have to defeat Germany Italy you only need to reduce them to 15 objective cities(+- whatever they bid), so if the axis are bidding agressively this might be quite a decent approach, probably not the best one, but an alternative.

Italy is one of the most important Axis powers when it comes to objectives for a few reasons. First, its final objective total is expected to be 0, which means that if Italy survives to the end of the game it will probably have 5 or 6 - if not more in the event that the Italians got to make hay in the Middle East. Second, in a typical five-player game Italy and Japan are usually bundled together, which means that a positive Italian total will probably outweigh a negative Japanese total unless the Japanese have been completely conquered. Finally, while an Axis player might bid aggressively for Germany (and maybe even for Japan on its own), he or she probably won't bid aggressively for Italy (case in point: when I went to WiFCon last year, I got Japan/Italy as the last bid for a bid total of -14 and despite the Axis being defeated in toto by July/August 1945 I still ended up scoring surprisingly high in the Con).

And the problem isn't the USSR being blown back to the Volga & the Caucasus, which is a pretty common occurence in a well-planned, well-executed Barbarossa in a normal game. The problem is when the USSR gets blasted past the Urals and loses the oil in and around Baku. The extra Manchurian production won't do them much good. Not to mention the Western Allies will have a hard time coping with the monstrous production that Germany would accrue in such a situaiton.

The Allies have to balance out their attacks against the Axis. They ultimately have the advantage in production and action limits to do this. The USSR doesn't need to get involved much in a war with Japan except to save China from certain destruction or to pick up some easy objectives in the end-game. Otherwise the Red Army must be available to fight the Wehrmacht. The CW and USA simply don't have the land force pools to do it on their own.

[Minority Report]

Hello,

I have been following the development MWIF for quite a while, but I have not participated much. Here is a suggestion for the Chinese map.

I think that the city of Ichang should be added as it was the objective of a significant Japanese operation in May/June 1940. This city is an important port on the Yangtze, and receives ocean going vessels. Hence, it is an important supply point. Also, once taken, the Japanese made it one of their key bases for bombing Chungking. The city is in gorge, so I propose to put it on the mountain hex left to the clear hex with the word Yangtze (or 1 hex southwest of Wuhan, then 3 hexes westward).

Congratulations for the good work!!!

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Minority Report
I think that the city of Ichang should be added as it was the objective of a significant Japanese operation in May/June 1940. This city is an important port on the Yangtze, and receives ocean going vessels. Hence, it is an important supply point. Also, once taken, the Japanese made it one of their key bases for bombing Chungking. The city is in gorge, so I propose to put it on the mountain hex left to the clear hex with the word Yangtze (or 1 hex southwest of Wuhan, then 3 hexes westward).

Thanks for the comment.
With your vote, Ichang gets 4 YES and 4 NO, so it is now present on the Map 2, the one with lots of new cities.
However, I do not agree with your placement. It is on the north side of the river, and the area around is much less broken than the area to the south and the area to the west, so I thin a clear hex is not bad. Also, it is about 280 km west from Wuhan (3 hexes) and 280 km south of Nanyang (3 hexes), so it's right position for me would be 3 hexes W of Wuhan (as it was propoed by Wosung at the start when he proposed that city).

I added the provinces boundaries on the map, for fun [:D] (separate layer, can be toggled off easily as the rest), and edited the rail around Nanchang after seeing the posts of the Axis History Forum (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0) thanks a lot for the link, it is full of informations.

Lately, I redid the Nanyang area (moved the city and moved the mountains & forest around), I posted the result in post #438, and I'd like comments about the Nanyang position and also about the terrain in this area (Han-Yangtzee area).

I'd also like comments about the Kweiyang area, as it is not really OK. Previous comments asked to add a lors of mountains there, but I would like the Kweiyang hex at least to stay in a clear hex (as in WiF FE) and as much hexes around as possible, so I'm looking for some middle ground between the all clear and all mountains variants.
Looking from above with Google Earth (new version 4 available) seem to show a lot of broken terrain, but in China not all broken terrain is translated in moutnains, some of the lower mountains can be translated as clear of forest hexes (if they are forested).

[Froonp]

Here is what it looks like.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Minority Report
I think that the city of Ichang should be added as it was the objective of a significant Japanese operation in May/June 1940. This city is an important port on the Yangtze, and receives ocean going vessels. Hence, it is an important supply point. Also, once taken, the Japanese made it one of their key bases for bombing Chungking. The city is in gorge, so I propose to put it on the mountain hex left to the clear hex with the word Yangtze (or 1 hex southwest of Wuhan, then 3 hexes westward).

Thanks for the comment.
With your vote, Ichang gets 4 YES and 4 NO, so it is now present on the Map 2, the one with lots of new cities.
However, I do not agree with your placement. It is on the north side of the river, and the area around is much less broken than the area to the south and the area to the west, so I thin a clear hex is not bad. Also, it is about 280 km west from Wuhan (3 hexes) and 280 km south of Nanyang (3 hexes), so it's right position for me would be 3 hexes W of Wuhan (as it was propoed by Wosung at the start when he proposed that city).

I added the provinces boundaries on the map, for fun [:D] (separate layer, can be toggled off easily as the rest), and edited the rail around Nanchang after seeing the posts of the Axis History Forum (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0) thanks a lot for the link, it is full of informations.

Lately, I redid the Nanyang area (moved the city and moved the mountains & forest around), I posted the result in post #438, and I'd like comments about the Nanyang position and also about the terrain in this area (Han-Yangtzee area).

I'd also like comments about the Kweiyang area, as it is not really OK. Previous comments asked to add a lors of mountains there, but I would like the Kweiyang hex at least to stay in a clear hex (as in WiF FE) and as much hexes around as possible, so I'm looking for some middle ground between the all clear and all mountains variants.
Looking from above with Google Earth (new version 4 available) seem to show a lot of broken terrain, but in China not all broken terrain is translated in moutnains, some of the lower mountains can be translated as clear of forest hexes (if they are forested).

I have no particular knowledge concerning China, so I am reluctant to weigh in on most of these matters.

I am undecided about the province boundaries.

On the minus side, they add clutter that is not relevant to game play. Also, such divisions are absent from other portions of the map: USA States, French Provences, Scotland & Wales, to name just a few similar divisions that are not shown.

On the plus side, they add flavor to an area of the world with which most WIF players have very little experience - "the mysterious orient". They also give players the ability to think and communicate in geographical terms other than cities (e.g., "drive on Sian and Lanchow" now becomes "occupy Shensi and Kansu"). It opens up the possibility of making them game play elements for future versions of MWIF - such as, for partisans and hex control.

So, are they a distraction or an enhancement"?

[Froonp]

I am undecided about the province boundaries.

On the minus side, they add clutter that is not relevant to game play. Also, such divisions are absent from other portions of the map: USA States, French Provences, Scotland & Wales, to name just a few similar divisions that are not shown.

On the plus side, they add flavor to an area of the world with which most WIF players have very little experience - "the mysterious orient". They also give players the ability to think and communicate in geographical terms other than cities (e.g., "drive on Sian and Lanchow" now becomes "occupy Shensi and Kansu"). It opens up the possibility of making them game play elements for future versions of MWIF - such as, for partisans and hex control.

So, are they a distraction or an enhancement"?

I just added them to this map for my own mapping pleasure, and also to help me follow the advices given by learned ones like Wosung who often speak using province names in their comments. It also helps when reading China WWII history, because the Province names are used a lot too.

I agree it add a lot of clutter to the map, for example the 1939 start line (that I also moved to make it right to September 1939 after seeing the maps on the Axis History Forum) is nearly not visible now !!! But when it will be time to give it to Steve, I'll make sure he does not miss it by removing unnecessary layers.

This map I'm toying with, and that I post here, is not the one of MWiF, and you Steve will decide finaly what appears on the MWiF map, not me.

You remember that I asked you to have the possibility to add a layer to the MWiF map showing the provinces boundaries in Russia especially (because I thought it would help to develop a future partisan system based on provinces), and it would be great if the game had this layer, but I would understand completely if it is not.

[trees trees]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

On the plus side, they add flavor to an area of the world with which most WIF players have very little experience - "the mysterious orient". They also give players the ability to think and communicate in geographical terms other than cities (e.g., "drive on Sian and Lanchow" now becomes "occupy Shensi and Kansu"). It opens up the possibility of making them game play elements for future versions of MWIF - such as, for partisans and hex control.

So, are they a distraction or an enhancement"?

Nice work on the provinces Froonp!

I say leave them in there. Heck, make them an easter egg for the history/geography geeks if you have to. Although it does open comparisons to other countries without such regional definitions, I don't think that would be a big concern. But definitely leave them turned 'off' as a default until there is some use for them beyond educational.

There is a lot of potential to enhance the design of MWiF, especially in conjunction with Days of Decision some day, in the China theater using the provinces. The Japanese conquered a few by simply buying the local warlord's allegiance I think. If you want to update/add to the WarLord counters in WiF, it might make more sense to restrict them to their home provinces rather than a certain hex range limit. You could create more WiF headaches for the Nationalists by making parts of their army be Warlord forces based on a province...and make the province an aligned minor, with all the Co-operation rules that could entail. This is in part what the Nationalist army was like in history. So some day those province lines could be very useful.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I am undecided about the province boundaries.

So, are they a distraction or an enhancement"?

I think that the province boundaries aren't really needed for actual MWIF
game play, but interesting for some players to look sometimes. So if
province borders are added they should be possible to turn off and on
by a separate toggle button.

It would be a little strange to me if province borders are added in China only.
I think other major countries like Australia, Japan, USA, Brazil, Russia etc.
should have province borders too if any. If I notice province borders in China
then I would start looking for them elsewhere too and then become a little
bit disappointed if I can't find them except in China. I would then ask myself,
why MWIF added these borders in China when they were not present on the
WIFFE map. What purpose do these borders serve etc. since they were specifically
added for China, but omitted in the rest of the world map.

I wonder how much work is needed to add province borders with names.
I guess Steve is very focused on other parts of MWIF development and will
probably not give the nice to have, but not truly needed province borders high
priority.

But if the beta MWIF is made is such a way that playtesters can alter the
map without involving Steve then it can maybe be considered to add these
province borders. Then all Steve needs to do is to program the toggle to
turn these borders on and off.

But if this work has to be done by Steve then I guess his valuable time
for MWIF development is better spent elsewhere. This is, of course, only
my humble opinion. [:)]

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
I agree it add a lot of clutter to the map, for example the 1939 start line (that I also moved to make it right to September 1939 after seeing the maps on the Axis History Forum) is nearly not visible now !!! But when it will be time to give it to Steve, I'll make sure he does not miss it by removing unnecessary layers.

I agree with you with all you write. These border lines do clutter the map so other map
information is not easily visible. But on the other hand it's nice info to have when needed.
Being able to turn on and off such info with a separare toggle button would be good
(default for toggle is to be turned off). And the benefit you spoke about using such
borders for identifying areas is partisans is a great one. But it all comes down to how
much work Steve needs to do in order to implement it. As I wrote in the other answer I
said that these border lines may be added if the playtesters (like you) can actually alter
the map features yourselves and send the updated version to Steve (after he has
created the new layer definition). Then it won't take up much of his valuable MWIF
development time.

I also wonder about the start line 1939 border in China. As you can see from the
map I provided from the Axis History Forum and also the map you posted yourself
then you will see a Japanese spearhead going towards Sian (being northwest of
Tungkwan). Your latest 1939 start line does not show this spearhead. Is
this intended? Such as not making it too difficult in the beginning for China to
defend by creating an extra thin bulge in the front line. I can understand this
due to the reality that China has so few units to defend her front line. But your
changes of the start line in the south (near Wuhan and Nanchang) have created
extra hexsides along the front line for the Chinese player to defend. So maybe
this is not the reason why the Japanese spearhead towards Sian is not shown in
the 1939 start line.

I wonder if you could change the 1939 start line to make the following 2 hexes
change from being on the Chinese side to the Japanese side:
* Clear hex NW1 of Tungkwan (north and east sides of rivers)
* Clear hex NW1+NE1 of Tungkwan (east side of river)

Looking at the MWIF map layout in this area it seems normal these 2 clear
hexes are on the Japanese side. They were captured during the Japanese offensive
who created this spearhead. The offensive seems to have halted when they reached
the river.

[YohanTM2]

keep them as off for default view please. Don't care if you want them able to be toggled on.

[Zorachus99]

ORIGINAL: Yohan

keep them as off for default view please. Don't care if you want them able to be toggled on.

I agree, the start lines are not useful outside of initial setup for almost all purposes.

[Manic Inertia]

Yea .. just about anything can be toggled on and off, and I guess most players would like to be able to see the map naked from time to time, ie without politics, units and start lines. I would.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Start lines will never be shown. Instead each hex has a small flag at the bottom that indicates which country currently controls the hex. Those are used in lieu of start lines, and they can be toggled on and off at any time during the game.

[Froonp]

While provinces appearing on the MWiF map seems very good to me, I think this should (if it is ever implemented) only be done for large countries.

Here is a try I did with France.
Quite cluttered, and IMO not very interesting.

I also did it with England, and it is worse, unless you only put Scotland & Wales.

[mlees]

Hehe. In "Empire in Arms", there is a whole diplomatic aspect to the game were you can DOW, find a season, then enforce a peace, and claim/exchange provinces/territories.

Your map of French provinces reminds me of their use for that. Cant wait for Steve to get cracking on Matrix Days of Decision (MaDD). [;)]