American Secret Weapons...

Eagle Day to Bombing of the Reich is a improved and enhanced edition of Talonsoft's older Battle of Britain and Bombing the Reich. This updated version represents the best simulation of the air war over Britain and the strategic bombing campaign over Europe that has ever been made.

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RyanCrierie
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American Secret Weapons...

Post by RyanCrierie »

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Ignore the Blurb on the location, it's for an alternate history universe.

Pressurized cockpit.
84' Wingspan
750 Square Ft Wing Area
60' 9" overall length
20' height
2 x Pratt and Whitney R-2800-9 Double Wasp
376 MPH top speed
Service ceiling 33,500 feet
1,306 gallons of internal fuel
2,900 mile range with 4,000 lbs of bombs

Proposed Armament was
1 x .30 Cal MG (Nose)
1 x .30 Cal MG (rear cockpit fairing)
1 x .30 Cal MG (Moveable fixture amidships allowing it to fire downward or through ports in the sides)
1 x .50 cal MG (Tail)
23,125 lb weight empty
32,970 lb gross weight
7 man maximum crew
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langley
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RE: American Secret Weapons...

Post by langley »

Nice!!!

Where did you find this? Always liked the Marauder myself.

MJT
"My God, I hope you don't blame me for this. I had no idea where you were."
Air Vice-marshal Pulford upon the loss of "Force Z"
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Capt Cliff
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RE: American Secret Weapons...

Post by Capt Cliff »

Try the Super Mitchel!! They built two of them!

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research ... /b3-27.htm
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RyanCrierie
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RE: American Secret Weapons...

Post by RyanCrierie »

The original drawings came from U.S. Bombers 1928 to 1980s by Lloyd S. Jones.
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RE: American Secret Weapons...

Post by RyanCrierie »

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Curtiss XP-71

The Curtiss XP-71 was the result of a 1941 proposal to the Army by the Curtiss-Wright Corporation of St. Louis, Missouri for a large escort fighter. The Curtiss design called for a high-wing monoplane with a tricycle landing gear. It was to be powered by a pair of turbosupercharged 3450 hp Pratt & Whitney R-4360-13 Wasp Major 28-cylinder air-cooled radials. The engines were to be situated in underwing-mounted nacelles and were each to drive a pair of contrarotating propellers in a pusher arrangement. The pressurized cockpit was to have had two crew members seated in tandem. The proposed armament consisted of two 37-mm cannon and one 75-mm (!) cannon mounted in the nose.

The USAAF ordered two XP-71s, but later had doubts that such a large and heavy warplane would ever be viable, and the project never reached the prototype state. It was officially canceled on August 26, 1943.

Dimensions
82'3" Span
61'10" Length
19' Height
602 Sq ft wing area
31,060 lbs empty
39,950 lbs gross
46,950 lbs max take off weight
1,940 gallons of fuel
428 MPH @ 25,000 ft maximum speed
97 MPH landing speed
40,000 ft service ceiling
25,000 ft in 12.5 minutes
3,000 mile range
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RyanCrierie
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RE: American Secret Weapons...

Post by RyanCrierie »

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Not really a secret weapon, but what we'd have used if the war had gone on longer.

The XB-24N was the prototype aircraft for the production version of the XB-24K. The -K was a production B-24D with a B-23 tail 'spliced' on replacing the normal empennage. The B-24N design was based on the B-24J and used data from the XB-24K tests to faciltate the extensive design changes necessary for a single tail. The B-24N was also had improved tail and nose turrets to increase defensive capabilities. Aerodynamic and weight reduction improvements gave the B-24N very good estimated performance. The Army Air Force ordered more than 5,000 -N models built and the prototype began its test program in late 1944. However, World War II ended before full-scale production began and only a single XB-24N and seven pre-production YB-24Ns were completed before the entire order was canceled.

Basically, it was produced because of the poor flying characteristics of the Twin Tailed B-24s vs the single tailed B-17s; and included various cleanups, like a nose ball turret with significantly increased field of fire and less drag compared to the normal nose turret; and the single tail allowed a much better field of fire for the tail guns.

4 x PW R-1830-75s 1,350 hp @ 30,000 ft
110' wingspan
67'2" length
26'9" height
1,048 Sq ft wing area
38,300 lb empty
56,000 lb gross
65,000 lb max
2,814 to 3,614 gallons of fuel

Top Speed: 294 MPH @ 30,000 ft
Cruising: 213 MPH
Landing: 95 MPH
Service Ceiling: 28,000 ft
Climb: 20,000 ft in 29 minutes
2,000 mile range with 5,000 lbs of bombs, 3,500 mile maximum range

Image
Tail Turret Type Adopted

Image
B-24N taking off.

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B-24N Nose Ball Turret

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Top down view of nose area.

From "Warbird Tech: B-24 Liberator":

And the new Emerson Model 128 spherical nose turret, tested earlier in a twin-tail B-24G was said to improve the Liberator's speed and handling because of its improved streamlining, over other nose turrets like the Emerson A-15 and Motor Products/Consolidated designs.

Servo tabs on the control surfaces of the "N" made control forces lighter than on previous Liberators—another feature welcomed by pilots.

The revamped B-24N promised to rectify problems that had grown like parasites on B-24s through the crush of wartime expedients that saw the traditional Liberator's design burdened with weight and drag concessions.

The desirability of a single tail for B-24s was stated succinctly in an Army Air Forces Proving Ground report in April 1944 that evaluated the first AAF single-tail Liberator,
the XB-24K. In part, the report concluded: "The handling characteristics of the B-24K model are excellent. The rudder and elevator controls are a great deal more sensitive than in the conventional model and should alleviate pilot fatigue." The report continued: "The performance of the 'K' model with two engines out on one side is decidedly superior to that of the standard 8-24 airplane. Comparatively little change in rudder trim is necessary for straight and level flight."

Additionally, the XB-24K afforded large increases in the fields of fire for the ball turret, waist guns, top turret, and tail turret, the report noted.The report, signed by Col. C.B. Overacker, chief of the proof department at the Eglin Field AAF Proving Ground Command facility, recommended a single tail similar to that oftheXB-24K "be incorporated in all future production B-24 aircraft,"

Another Eglin test report from August 1944 highlighted benefits derived from the installation of the spherical Emerson Model 128 turret in the modified nose of a B-24G. The resulting nose contours on the adapted G-model closely resembled the lines of the Ford XB-24N. The report concluded:"The all-around performance, especially during formation flying, of the B-24G with the subject nose turret, is greatly superior to that of any B-24 of the G, H, or J series which has been tested at this station.... The superior performance of this airplane can be attributed largely to the Emerson 128 ball turret installation in the nose." Visibility for the bombardier and navigator were found to be better with the Emerson 128 installation than with standard B-24s. Side windows afforded bombardiers the ability to look aft, watching bomb impacts, and the side view was said to be adequate for even short approaches from 90-degree angles to the target run. Pilot visibility was enhanced by the smoother contours of the modified nose in this test airplane. (In a standard nose-turreted B-24, the turret protruded above the normal nose contour, obstructing the pilots' view forward.) Testers did comment on the excessive number of canopy frames in the otherwise-unchanged B-24G cockpit—a hindrance that would be corrected on the B-24N.

B-24 pilots sometimes spoke about the Liberator's "step," meaning a particular cruise attitude that was desirable to attain, and was achieved, they said, by climbing
above desired cruise altitude and diving slightly to gain speed, and set the aircraft "on the step." According to the test report of the modified B-24G with the Emerson 128 nose turret, a standard B-24J used for comparison "was extremely sluggish and hard to maintain 'on the step'at air speeds of 158 to 160 MPH. The B-24G handled very well and was much easier to keep "on the step" at that speed.... Operating with a full military load, the B-24J type aircraft becomes unmanageable in close formation at air speeds of 155 MPH or less. Although the handling characteristics of the (modified) B-24G left much to be desired at similar speeds, they were a decided improvement over those of the B-24J."

In these two 1944 Liberator tests, validation was found for two major design innovations built into the Ford B-24N: A single tail and the Emerson 128 spherical nose turret. In addition to better handling and working arrangements for the crew, all the changes poured into the XB-24N, including the use of R-1830-75 engines, were said to give this variant 300 miles more range than any other nose-turreted B-24, when all were flown at maximum cruise power with a 5,000-lb. pay-load.

---------------------

In January and February 1945, ongoing message traffic between HQ USAAF, Eighth AF, and 15th AF documented a search for a late-model B-24 configuration that would satisfy the needs of both Eighth and 15th Air Forces. A February 12,1945, message from General Arnold anticipated the production of B-24Ns for combat as it spoke about configuring B-24Ls for Europe: "The B-24N will soon replace the B-24L in production and such changes that cannot be readily incorporated in the B-24L will probably be incorporated in the B-24N aircraft."On February 17, 1945, General Spaatz asked General Arnold to dispatch a B-24N to the European Theater of Operations and Mediterranean Theater of Operations as soon as possible to allow Eighth and 15th Air Force representatives to come to an agreement on how to configure N-mod-els jointly. The actual end of fighting in Europe was less than three months away, and still the need for B-24Ns was apparent to U5AAF planners in February 1945, who could not afford crystal-ball hunches about when their war would end.

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Hard Sarge
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RE: American Secret Weapons...

Post by Hard Sarge »

Hmmm
I thought that looked like a Privateer
 
this is the part I would like to ask about though
 
and the single tail allowed a much better field of fire for the tail guns.
 
?????
 
that kind of statement, makes the whole story sound like the writer had no clue about what he was talking about
 
 
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DuckofTindalos
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RE: American Secret Weapons...

Post by DuckofTindalos »

Yeah, that sounds sort of strange... If the tail turret had had a 180-degree or 210-degree firing arc, it might have been an issue, but it obviously doesn't...
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
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RE: American Secret Weapons...

Post by otisabuser2 »

Do you think he's referring to the increased field of vision for the tail gunner. Also possibly counting the waist gunners as tail gunners, as they also seem to have better arcs.
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RE: American Secret Weapons...

Post by DuckofTindalos »

The waist gunners wouldn't be able to fire their guns along the fuselage...
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RE: American Secret Weapons...

Post by RyanCrierie »

that kind of statement, makes the whole story sound like the writer had no clue about what he was talking about

Well, a Army Air Forces Proving Ground Report in 1944 on the XB-24K, the immediate precedessor to the -24N noted that:

the XB-24K afforded large increases in the fields of fire for the ball turret, waist guns, top turret, and tail turret

My guess from that is that eliminating the twin tails allowed them to remove a lot of the "blockers" installed in the turrets to prevent gunners from shooting up their own aircraft; and that without the large twin tails, the waist gunners had a better field of fire aft.
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Hard Sarge
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RE: American Secret Weapons...

Post by Hard Sarge »

That is just plain retarded, would have to guess it was somebody trying to impress some one who had no idea of what a Airplane was, the new tail surface is bigger then the old one was, it doesn't improve the field of fire for the top or side gunners, the type of turret in the tail, gives it even less range of movement then the old turret did (may of saved a lot of weight though)
 
and the tail had nothing to do with the belly gunners field of fire
 
I am surprised he didn't add in that it helped the nose gunner at the same time
 
odd, it may of given the top gunner a little more angle off firing, but it totally took away any chance he had of firing at a diving plane to the rear (not that the tail gunner wanted him firing over his head :)
 
sorry, but that statement just does not make sense, I am sure the single tail had many reasons for being added, and may have improved how the plane flew and handled, but it didn't do anything for the tail gunners field of fire
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RE: American Secret Weapons...

Post by otisabuser2 »

That is just plain retarded, would have to guess it was somebody trying to impress some one who had no idea of what a Airplane was, the new tail surface is bigger then the old one was, it doesn't improve the field of fire for the top or side gunners

Are you trying to tell us that the side gunners had such a restricted arc of fire that their weapons could not be traversed towards the rear tailplane where that big fin was ( on either side ) ?
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RE: American Secret Weapons...

Post by Hard Sarge »

ORIGINAL: otisabuser2
That is just plain retarded, would have to guess it was somebody trying to impress some one who had no idea of what a Airplane was, the new tail surface is bigger then the old one was, it doesn't improve the field of fire for the top or side gunners

Are you trying to tell us that the side gunners had such a restricted arc of fire that their weapons could not be traversed towards the rear tailplane where that big fin was ( on either side ) ?

and as has been stated

The waist gunners wouldn't be able to fire their guns along the fuselage...

also they did not have much rearward firing angle

don't forget, the side guns, were inside of the plane

plus look at the tail unit on that plane, that is not a small area, with a single rudder or duel

have you ever seen any of the diagrams of the arcs of fire on these bombers ? the side guns, fire to the side, not to the rear

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otisabuser2
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RE: American Secret Weapons...

Post by otisabuser2 »

Hi Hardsarge,


To be clear about the waist gun thing. To my eye the front edge of the B24 tail looks to be about a 45 degree rearward arc from the waistgunners centreline ( ie from looking directly out from the side of the plane ).

You state the waist guns did not have much of a rearward angle. So it's kind of a chicken and egg question.....

Did the rear fin restrict the rearward view of the waist gunner OR did it not matter anyway because it was beyond the current engineering means to have those guns pivot beyond 45 degrees rearwards ?

You appear to be leaning towards the latter ?
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RE: American Secret Weapons...

Post by DuckofTindalos »

The waist gun position is a window with a hole in it; only the barrel sticks out. There is no way it could fire to the rear...
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otisabuser2
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RE: American Secret Weapons...

Post by otisabuser2 »

Terminus,

I appreciate the waist guns can not fire directly to the rear. That would be silly.

The matter in question is whether they could fire 45 degrees towards the rear. ie about where the B24 fins start.



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Hard Sarge
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RE: American Secret Weapons...

Post by Hard Sarge »

Ah Crud
lost my reply :(
 
I agree with Termuis
 
look at your pic and then look at the single tail pic, the tail unit on the single unit spreads out more then the double tail does
 
now the privateer model, which is close to this design, had blisters on the side, which may of helped with the field of fire for these guns (but then it has a Top Turret that is almost sitting on the tail, which totally take the top guns of action to the rear and most of the rear flanks)
 
(also odd, as the Eng was the normal Top Turret gunner, which is why that one is normally so close to the cockpit)
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RE: American Secret Weapons...

Post by otisabuser2 »

look at your pic and then look at the single tail pic, the tail unit on the single unit spreads out more then the double tail does

Yes, but what makes more of a difference to the field of fire ? The slightly longer single tail or the big fin thing at the end of it that isn't there on the new model ?

I see you've avoided answering my question...
Did the rear fin restrict the rearward view of the waist gunner OR did it not matter anyway because it was beyond the current engineering means to have those guns pivot beyond 45 degrees rearwards ?

Those waist guns seem to be able to point more than 45 degrees rearward without using blisters, but I know little about US planes. [;)]

regards Otis
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RE: American Secret Weapons...

Post by Hard Sarge »

I not avoiding anything
 
those guns had blocks to keep them from fireing into there own plane
 
plus as Termius said, the guns are mounted inside of the plane,
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