Demo Kits and Obstacle Clearance

[Dragoon 45]

I recently did a test with a US Army A&P Squad against an obstacle belt. This belt was made up of mines, wire obstacles, and dragon's teeth. Just setting the squads to clear obstacles yielded one to two points worth of the obstacle cleared per turn. Attacking the hex with direct fire (to simulate the use of the squad's demo kits and satchel charges) yielded one to two points worth of the obstacle cleared with each attack. Thus if you combined both methods of clearing you could get 2-4 points worth of the obstacle cleared per turn.

I know we have discussed this before, but I would expect better results in clearing the wire and dragon's teeth using the demo kit. In US Military usage the Demo Kit would consist of bangalore torpedos, detonators, det cord, a considerable amount of explosives (200-300 lbs), and other necessary equipment and tools needed to do deliberate demolition work (ie. blow bridges, blow AT obstacles, crater roads, build road blocks, etc.) The Demo Kit would contain enough explosives, det cord, and detonators to daisy chain a significant number of obstacles enabling the clearing of a lane through the obstacle belt. I would be remiss in not stating that this also comes with a transportation cost, it would take a prime mover and a trailer to transport the demo kit. The full kit could not be carried by one squad, but would take probably an entire platoon to carry it outside of its truck and trailer. Present day US Engineers use a 5 ton Dump Truck and a special trailer to move their demo kits.

As line charges were not used to the best of my knowledge in WW II, I would not expect the Demo Kit to be as effective in clearing mine fields. Bangalore Torpedo's could be used for this in addition to breaching wire obstacles, but would not be as effective in clearing mines as a line charge is today. The Bangalore Torpedo is very effective at breaching wire obstacles usually using one charge made up of the necessary lengths of explosive filled pipe. If placed correctly only one bangalore torpedo (made to the correct length) is needed to breach wire.

As the game now handles engineers removing obstacles, I would guess it treats obstacle removal as being done by hand; manual removal of mines, manual cutting of the wire in wire obstacles, and blowing one dragon's teeth at a time with satchel charges. With the right equipment obstacles can be removed much more quickly. Every Army that I have studied uses the same doctrine for removal of obstacles, do it as quickly as possible with the least amount of casaulities as possible to the troops doing the breaching. Obstacles are normally overwatched by fire and observation. Engineers are very valuable troops and any commander will not want to expose them to any more fire than absolutely necessary to create a breach.

The time issue does rear its head here. How long is a turn in SPWaW? I don't have that answer, and from what I have read here in the forums, no else does. Advancing infantry not under fire but expecting contact well do well to cover 1-2 KM in an hour. But I would argue that the turn is at least 4-5 minutes in length based on a comparision of movement points vs the game's scale of 50 meters per hex. Well trained engineers could very well rig and blow a breach in a wire obstacle with a bangalore torpedo in that time or rig and blow a lane through 10 dragon's teeth in the same time.

[omegaall]

Your logic is correct re clearing an obstacle BUT.
The BUT relates to the weapon locations, its slot location, within a squad.

As an example the Satchel Charge is in slot 3 for the US A & P Squad. Also it is classed as Secondary Infantry. Thus only one person in the squad has it. Thuis it can only clear one obstacle at a time or there abouts.
If it was classed a primary and in slot 1 then all members of the squad - other weapons as secondary will have it so it should clear more. That is in theory and depending on how the game engine does the assessment of clearing.

Not disagreeing with you just trying to point out how it seems to be working.

Someone else may have a better reason for the slowness of clearing.

[FlashfyreSP]

AFAIK, the term "Demo Kit" as applied in the game is not the same "weapon kit" you are thinking of. It has lower weapon stats overall compared to the Satchel Charge; I'm guessing the thought at the time was that it was more of an obstacle-clearing "kit" of dynamite and fusing. Used for felling trees to make roadblocks or knocking them apart, dropping small bridges, and the like. Not quite the same as prepared concrete "dragons teeth" or other heavy obstacles.

By design, the US A & P Squads (Ammunition & Pioneer) were "low-level" engineers, tasked with providing immediate engineer capability to the regimental commmander, as well as coordinating the supply of ammunition to the front lines. They weren't expected to handle the large-scale engineering projects, such as bridging or defensive works removal; but if a path needed to be cut through a forest, or a temporary bridge built across a small stream, these were the guys to do it, freeing the main engineer companies to handle the big projects.

As to the clearing of obstacles in the game: your guess is as good as mine. I know that engineer-class units tend to clear twice as many obstacles as non-engineer classed ones, but I have no idea how the code determines how many are removed and by what manner.

[Don Doom]

I have noticed that dueing play is, if the is not taken damage/suppressed and is in good morale, they will remove upto four mines/obs. Every turn they are pinned or damaged they remove less.
So most likely they have to pass a morale test and how many men are left to do the job.

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: Don Doom

I have noticed that dueing play is, if the is not taken damage/suppressed and is in good morale, they will remove upto four mines/obs. Every turn they are pinned or damaged they remove less.
So most likely they have to pass a morale test and how many men are left to do the job.

I'd think this is the way it's done, but we can ask Michael to verify it.

[Dragoon 45]

I don't doubt the morale/experience checks done to enable the clearance of obstacles. It makes good sense.

What I question is the length in turns it takes to clear an obstacle. A Sherman Flail moves at 1-1.5 MPH when clearing mines. That equates to roughly 18 meters per minute, or 54 meters in 3 minutes with mine field density having a very small effect on how fast the vehicle moves when clearing. I have seen modern flails in use in Afghanistan and the Balkans and only mobility factors have a bearing on how fast the flail moves forward, i.e. mud, snow and ice, etc. By the same token, one Bangalore Torpedo of appropriate length will blow a hole through a wire obstacle completely and with a well trained unit takes a very small amount of time to emplace it. The same goes for an engineer squad daisy-chaining a belt of dragon's teeth and destroying them to make a breach in one shot. Dismounted engineers would be slowed down by enemy fire, which I think is adequately addressed by the morale/experience check and suppression levels, but engineer units conducting a breaching operation expect to come under enemy fire during the course of the breach.

Speed is the necessary ingredient in breaching an obstacle. Engineer squads/platoons and Engineer tanks are trained to create the breach as quickly as possible, and yes sometimes the breach is not successfully created on the first attempt. Then also the follow-on unit has a direct bearing on how wide the breach is created and how many cleared lanes are needed. Dismounted infantry only need a 1.5-2 meter wide path through a minefield and the number of cleared lanes needed depends on the size of the infantry unit involved while vehicles need as least 4 meters width in the cleared lane and often times only a single lane will be created initially for vehicles.

I think the game handles manual breaching by non-engineer units well as the breaching would be done manually. But engineer units with their TOE equipment should probably be able to create a breach much quicker than the game now allows it.

[KG Erwin]

Dragoon45, this is another reason why I play with with mines OFF. The game sometimes feels too much like WWI given the time scale with mines ON.

As a Pacific battle player, this is fine, as the Japanese didn't have the resources to lay extensive minefields on the islands the Marines assaulted. They existed, but they were rare.

However, if a scenario is designed from mines to be on, then the player should follow the guidelines.

[Dragoon 45]

I went back a did another test. I took an engineer squad and put the demo kit in weapons slot #1. I then attacked the hex containing the dragon's teeth with direct fire. According to the results I only destroyed 1 point worth of the dragon's teeth. This was a controlled test with no enemy units on the map firing at the engineers. The results seemed to be the same for demo kits no matter what weapons slot it was in.

ORIGINAL: omegaall

Your logic is correct re clearing an obstacle BUT.
The BUT relates to the weapon locations, its slot location, within a squad.

As an example the Satchel Charge is in slot 3 for the US A & P Squad. Also it is classed as Secondary Infantry. Thus only one person in the squad has it. Thuis it can only clear one obstacle at a time or there abouts.
If it was classed a primary and in slot 1 then all members of the squad - other weapons as secondary will have it so it should clear more. That is in theory and depending on how the game engine does the assessment of clearing.

Not disagreeing with you just trying to point out how it seems to be working.

Someone else may have a better reason for the slowness of clearing.

[FlashfyreSP]

ORIGINAL: Dragoon 45

I went back a did another test. I took an engineer squad and put the demo kit in weapons slot #1. I then attacked the hex containing the dragon's teeth with direct fire. According to the results I only destroyed 1 point worth of the dragon's teeth. This was a controlled test with no enemy units on the map firing at the engineers. The results seemed to be the same for demo kits no matter what weapons slot it was in.

ORIGINAL: omegaall

Your logic is correct re clearing an obstacle BUT.
The BUT relates to the weapon locations, its slot location, within a squad.

As an example the Satchel Charge is in slot 3 for the US A & P Squad. Also it is classed as Secondary Infantry. Thus only one person in the squad has it. Thuis it can only clear one obstacle at a time or there abouts.
If it was classed a primary and in slot 1 then all members of the squad - other weapons as secondary will have it so it should clear more. That is in theory and depending on how the game engine does the assessment of clearing.

Not disagreeing with you just trying to point out how it seems to be working.

Someone else may have a better reason for the slowness of clearing.

That's because the Demo Kit weapon is classed as a Secondary Infantry, which the game code treats as being wielded by only one member of the Crew, no matter what slot it is in. Primary Infantry weapons are treated as {potentially) being used by each member of the Crew, depending on the results of various checks.

[m10bob]

Don't know if this could ever be simulated in SPWAW,but when the G.I.'s got to the dragon teeth at the Siegfried line, some enterprising soul took some Sherman 'dozers and proceeded to advance the obstacles,blades down, and filled in the teeth with dirt, making a bridge over them! took a few minutes and contravened mines,etc....
IIRC, this was done by the U.S. 3rd AD....