Over 300 scenarios

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: jpkoester1

You know Herman,

and guess why we took access down?. This is exactly the kind of thig that has led to the decision of restricting access to Mantis (and personally it pisses me off mightily). The bug has been mentioned on this forum here and yes, it is there and yes, it is a problem we are working on. In fact we are already testing a fix, but it is not ready for public release yet. Adding words like "total scen killer" and "Each And Every Harpoon 3 scen currently in existence" is not helpful to anyone either.

The Mantis bugtracking system was implemented as a tool to help testers and programmers to work together more effectively. It is an INTERNAL tool that we have in the past run very openly to give the Harpoon community the possibility to gain an insight into the going-ons and the issues we are addressing. Many people have taken this opportunity to constructively contribute and help us solve the problems. However you specifically refuse to take part in that process.

Instead you

• rip contributors' quotes from this INTERNAL tool that has specific terms of use that prohibit you to do so
• add a direct link into the bugtracking system that has terms of use that prohibit you to do so
  
  << snip >>

<< snip >>

Our bugtracking system can only be effective if people feel safe in posting their oppinion on certain aspects of the game WITHOUT having to justify themselves on every Harpoon forum out there. There are always differing viewpoints on the severity of a bug or about a certain approach to fixing it or the order in which issues should be addressed. This shit posted here is hurting our effort to do a good job there.

You have yet to refute any of the facts presented. Yes. About the discussion regarding the bug, I do not believe that it was defined, at all:

Bug Report thread:

The navigation bug I believe is well known and likely being sorted already. Unfortunately when it occurs it is impossible to continue. So far i have had a 100% success rate in getting this to show

...which I do not think it was a description of the bug itself or how it influences the game.

Anyone else have a problem understanding 'the Navigation Bug' from this description? I play the game and couldn't figure out which bug was meant in the reference. There were 4-5 similar reports.

If there is an error on any of the points, kindly indicate where they are and corrections will be made.

That quote was made when there was public access to the system and has far-reaching effects to anyone currently running the program. IMHO, it would be reckless to suppress it. [That's an opinion and not a fact.]

[jpkoester1]

ORIGINAL: hermanhum
You have yet to refute any of the facts presented.

I don't need to refute the facts, because they are facts. I am just hugely annoyed by the way you present them.

ORIGINAL: hermanhum
Anyone else have a problem understanding 'the Navigation Bug' from this description? I play the game and couldn't figure out which bug was meant in the reference. There were 4-5 similar reports.

The bug meant in the reference is a bug where a large number of navigation errors pop up while playing a scenario. It is caused by the code that detects whether a line (ship course) passes through a particular point. Basically a fix to a previous bug (ships being able to cross over land reported by you) uncovered it. So while previously the game engine was not detecting land incursion sensitive enough the current version seems to be a bit too sensitive causing multiple popups in some scenarios.

ORIGINAL: hermanhum
That quote was made when there was public access to the system and has far-reaching effects to anyone currently running the program. IMHO, it would be reckless to suppress it. [That's an opinion and not a fact.]

Yes, the quote was made before public access was suspended, that doesn't make quoting it on three different forums the right thing to do.

No, the comment you quoted does not add anythig to the facts and doesn't have any effects on anyone running the program. It is the bug that has the effect. Don't tell me you didn't know that this would annoy people. Report the bug in a neutral manner and I don't have a problem with you. Right now I do.

We would have liked to keep Mantis open to our fanbase and interested members of the community so that they could take a look at what is going on, sadly I believe that your actions, and your actions alone forced the suspension of public access.

I am sorry for the rest of the community that this became necessary.

JP

PS.: Again, this is my personal opinion and I am not speaking for AGSI in this post

[Yorkiesand235]

I would like to thank Herman for bringing this to our attention even though the manner is a bit rough.[:D] I've bought Harpoon ANW and are looking forward to it, I appreciate the work Matrix / AGSI are doing towards this as I know it will be well supported. I've had war in the pacific since it came out and they do good patches for this, and take suggestions for us mere customers[:)]. I will await the patch before I start playing ANW in ernest keeping in mind the bugs that may happen. Though to close the bug reporting system seems a bit harsh, because of one person. Re-open it and let us mere customers have an understanding of the bugs and the development, not many companies do that you should be appluded for doing this.

P.S. Also I think you've done a great job with TOAW III, brought life to a good old classic.[:)][&o]

[jpkoester1]

ORIGINAL: Yorkiesand23a
<snipped>
Re-open it and let us mere customers have an understanding of the bugs and the development, not many companies do that you should be appluded for doing this.
<snipped>

We are currently in the process of reviewing our policies on this. Unfortunately we have had to take down public access for now due to posts of internal documentation on external sites (in some cases a full database dump was posted as an excel sheet). I hope you understand that we can't accept such misuse of our openness and trust in the community members to deal with the information they get appropriately.

After reevaluating our policy and procedures with regard to this we will probably implement a system where users can request access to the site if they want to help us with testing and bugtracking (however, no promises). This way we would be able to withdraw access to individual users in case we feel that the knowledge people get from having access is not treated appropriately.

Again, I am sorry that we had to take this step, but we were forced to do it by the behaviour of certain individuals.

Cheers,
JP

[jkruny]

Hermann, I have one question for you first.

Have you personally purchased ANW from Matrix, or are you currently running the pre-release version that you have?

For those who don't know me, I am a beta tester on the ANW team, and have been playing and testing ANW exclusively for better than a year. I have purchased basically all copies of Harpoon since it's 360 days on the MAC. I know this game.

I do not have an issue with you posting the "facts" as you call them. But coping and pasting posts from a beta bug tracking system into a public forum is not stating the facts. We all want this product to succeed, but appointing yourself the "bug messiah" of ANW is not contributing, it is distracting.

I can personally assure everyone with questions and bug/or bug reports, that these items are being addressed. I found the "Nav" bug which has started this particular thread, and have been working with the coders to find a fix. Hermann, you yourself stated you have not seen this particular bug, or don't recognize it, and it is a random and variable bug, and as such is difficult to pin point. If you don't know what it is, please keep your comments to yourself.

To all players I say this, there are bugs, but please continue to post when you encounter one. The principals involved here, Matrix and AGSI, will continue to work to fix problems, so that you may enjoy the Harpoon experience as I have for oh these so many years.

Cordially

[mikmykWS]

I second what Jeff says. You'll see my name in the credits of the game as well.
&nbsp;
Guys if you contribute and turn in bugs they'll be paid attention to. AGSI has always been marvelous about doing that and a darn shame the system they set up has been abused this way.
&nbsp;
Herman is seemingly doing a second hand bug reporting thing and really not even sure he has 3.7. Why on earth would you download the database dump and put it in excel format...Thats just weird and basically an abuse of trust. Shame on you really.

[MemoryLeak]

If you really want to fix a bug , please step on herman and squash him. There are some people in this world that will never be happy and really don't fit in. Unfortunately the rest of us are forced to be subjected to his constant negative comments that trash a good programming team and simulation.

[FransKoenz]

This Forum is more and more turning into a kind of Tribunal to bring down persons.
Herman Hum doesn't deserve this! His contributions to the Harpoon community are great.

The bugs are there already long time, it seems that it is company-policy not to resolve bugs in order to launch the newest version as soon as possible and making money with a game which is not ready for release.

You AGSI-guys better work to improve this expensive bug-filled product instead of bringing down customers who want a decent game for their money.

[:@][:@][:@]

[jkruny]

Frans,

I am going to ask you the same question.

Have you puchased ANW from Matrix? If not, then on what basis do you post to a forum here for owners of Matrix games?

[TonyE]

ORIGINAL: jkruny

Frans,

I am going to ask you the same question.

Have you puchased ANW from Matrix? If not, then on what basis do you post to a forum here for owners of Matrix games?

Hi, I'm Tony. I have purchased a couple of Matrix games so I think I can post here [;)]. If Herman doesn't have a copy of ANW like I don't, it may be because we haven't received our copies for being beta testers yet (this isn't saying Herman doesn't have ANW, I don't know). As I've posted elsewhere, I'm willing to buy the game and may well buy a copy for someone to get Matrix that $50 that I won't be giving them since I was a beta tester and will be receiving a comped copy.

Sure Herman can be a pain but he's finding bugs, unimplemented features, and a host of other less critical items no programmer really wants to see, but he is finding them and posting them, allowing AGSI to take that hard work <free> and run with it by acknowledging the items <showing concern>, and dealing with those that resources permit <showing follow-thru>. It took a number of IRC chats before we would allow the bug lists at HarpGamer. But when Herman was willing to provide whatever proof we requested for every issue (and now <unrequested by HG> almost always a save game to reproduce the issue!), we had little choice but to allow the posts. When we find problems with any of the bug list posts we ask Herman (and other posters) if he can re-word, be more specific, etc. Herman takes the time to comply, so perhaps there is some middle ground for you, if something isn't up to whatever standards you are demanding, ask Herman nicely off-forum, off-list, and he'll probably comply with any request that maintains openness and most importantly, acknowledgement that something isn't quite right or optimal in the game.

[CV32]

I've thus far hesitated to post in this forum, mostly because I wanted to wait and see what kind of atmosphere would be generated here. (I don't think I have to explain why, since anyone with any experience of being involved in the Harpoon community would know, and there are plenty of examples elsewhere).

However, now having seen this forum in action for a little while, I think my posts here will be few and far between, at least until attitudes change. (Some are shouting hooray, [:D] and that's ok).

I'll be first to admit that Herman does not use kid gloves, and maybe that rubs people the wrong way, but ... (you knew it was coming) ... if there are bugs, then I am somehow doubtful that shoving them back in the closet is gonna help sales. People who are new to this sim are just as likely to run in the opposite direction if they see a crew who don't want to talk about the sim's shortcomings, and in the process, hopefully fix what can be fixed.

I've done my stint with AGSI as well, and I'm sure their intentions are honourable, but the guys still involved with the project need to quit whining, admit there are shortfalls (if there are), and work on fixing em. There's no version of Harpoon that doesn't have its warts, and I'd venture to say that if you're interested in a sim as complex as H3ANW, then you're probably going to love it, warts and all.

(And before somebody jumps on me, yes, I DO own H3ANW. Looking forward to learning how to play it, and play it well). [8D]

[jkruny]

Okay, I knew that this would happen, so I'm going to do this one more time, and then I'm going to go back to quietly enjoying this product.

First of all, this is not an attack on Hermann, it is an attack on what he did. He copied and pasted a post from a proprietary bug tracking site, on which he had access, to a public forum. The bug in question had indeed already been identified (by me), and the coders have been working hard to correct the problem.

Hermann's post is not bug reporting. Hermann even as much as admitted that he could not identify the particular bug. If you look closely at the threads in this ANW forum, you will see that there are bug reports posted as they should be, many by Hermann. I find it amazing that someone would feel compelled to defend the person, when it is only his actions that are in question.

Secondly, the issue of ownership was broached by me only to emphasize that at least morally, if not ethically and legally, if you do not own the product, you do not have the standing to become the self proclaimed champion of the unwary consumer. Indeed, even if you own the product ,I'm not sure that what Hermann did here would be appropriate. I bought Harpoon3 the day it was offered for sale by Jesse Spears, bugs (there were and still are many) included. I didn't feel the need then to immediately warn other buyers to beware, but I did contribute to tracking them down, mostly thru private messages and e-mails with Jesse himself.

As to AGSI, they are a privately held company that can do business in any way they see fit, provided it is legal. We have no way to determine what their internal operations are, what their plans are, or even speculate as to what their corporate demeanor is. We can only report to them what we find, and then it is out of our hands.

I have thru the years stayed well out of the whole Harpoon community controversy. I have my opinions, and will keep them to myself. I would like to note however, that I do think it very childish for adults who have no vested financial interest in these products to feel that they have somehow been wronged. As an end user, I have only two choices, buy the product or don't.

I have bought the product, and I enjoy it immensely. I will continue to try my best to make the Harpoon experience an enjoyable one, for myself and others. I will continue to ignore the petty squabbles of some, and defend my right to keep my Harpoon experience positive when necessary.

Cordially

[rhondabrwn]

This name calling and bickering really dismays me. Even worse, it seems that actions here reflect a general community wide environment where this sort of thing occurs. The more I see of the "Harpoon Community" the less I want to be associated with it.

I'll figure things out for myself, thank you. [:-]

The last man left standing, please turn the lights out when you leave. [:(]

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

This name calling and bickering really dismays me. Even worse, it seems that actions here reflect a general community wide environment where this sort of thing occurs. The more I see of the "Harpoon Community" the less I want to be associated with it.

I know what you mean. This isn't a 'Matrix' forum, and the problem isn't an inherent one to taking on a long-established game with an existing "community" - just look at the contrast with the TOAW board.

I'll figure things out for myself, thank you.

Hmm.... maybe we should have a "people who had never played Harpoon before June 14" forum. It probably wouldn't actually succeed in helping anybody very much, but might be a lot more fun to visit. [;)]

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: jpkoester1

ORIGINAL: hermanhum
Anyone else have a problem understanding 'the Navigation Bug' from this description? I play the game and couldn't figure out which bug was meant in the reference. There were 4-5 similar reports.

The bug meant in the reference is a bug where a large number of navigation errors pop up while playing a scenario. It is caused by the code that detects whether a line (ship course) passes through a particular point. Basically a fix to a previous bug (ships being able to cross over land reported by you) uncovered it. So while previously the game engine was not detecting land incursion sensitive enough the current version seems to be a bit too sensitive causing multiple popups in some scenarios.

The more description you provide, the more confused I am regarding the Navigation bug. I can understand the description you mention here, but I am not certain that we are discussing the same bug issue.

You also mention that this bug was derived from the bug I reported for #1464 - Ships can sail on land. At the same time, Jkruny is claiming that this bug is the same as one identified by him, personally, in #1481 Illegal Path - message #52 of this thread.

So, in summary, this bug is presently described as:

1) Land ship bug derivative
2) Nav bug
3) Attack mission fails to execute - [Bug Report: Strike mission fails to execute]

I think that all three are potentially related, but if three experienced users cannot positively identify the bug, how can new users expect to follow the discussion?

The only important thing is:

This bug appears in all scenarios and can break any and all of these scenarios whether or not they are official or user-made files.

[Anonymous]

[Deleted by Admins]

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: VCDH

I would like to point out that by your own admission in our IRC chat a few weeks ago, you tested the land ship bug in 3.6.3. I have been since unable to reproduce it in 3.7. AGSI consideres that issue closed.

The "Land Ship" bug cannot be purposely re-created in ANW. However, if this bug is already present in a pre-existing Harpoon 3.6.3 scenario, then this phenomenon will appear when that scenario is run on ANW.

[Anonymous]

[Deleted by Admins]