Request for allied opponent - CHS

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vonSchnitter
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Request for allied opponent - CHS

Post by vonSchnitter »

Salute !

Well, looks like my other opponent is going on vacation for two weeks. And since we all know, that a day without at least one WitP PBM move in the mail-box is a day lost , I would like to start a new game ...
Do not get me wrong please - I am looking for a long term "second" game, not a stop gap "quickie"

Any one of the CHS scenarios will do for me.

Settings:
Japanese Sub Doctrine - OFF
Allied Sub - your call
FOW - ON
Adv. Weather - ON
Allied DC - ON
Hist. 1st Turn - On or OFF (my preference is off - if coupled with surprise off)
Vary Setup - OFF
Dec. 7 Suprise - ON or OFF (my preference is off - if coupled with Hist 1st off)
Reinforcements - Static
Combat Reports - ON
Combat Animation - ON
Auto Sub Ops - OFF
All Facilities NOT set to Expand
Upgrades/Replacements - OFF
1 day turn
PDU - ON


House rules:
I am as much open for an "everything goes" game as for some "balancing" rules. In the latter case, those HR should be treated as re-negotiable during the game, to keep the "loosing" side in it and the game interesting for both sides. And what is more: Both sides adapted their respective strategies and options along the course of the war.

First turn options:

IMHO we could do the historic first turn with surprise, or both off.
In the latter case, both players are free to make any movements as each sees fit. Including things like evacuating PH or the KB going Carrier hunting.
However, the following restrictions will apply:
a) IJF player may perform any invasions to locations as in the "historical/surprise" situation. No other invasions are allowed.
b) Those invasions are optional
c) IJF player may change dispositions for those "historic" invations at his own discretion
d) IJF player may divert existing invasion TFs to different locations to invade at the next move if historic - or after at least 3 more moves if not , but is not allowed to create new TFs to invade new locations the next day. (Something like sending a TF to the vicinity of Cagayan to invade next day).
f) Allied player will not perform or prepare invasions on his own (including loading troops and supplies) til the 20th of Dec. 41. Evacuations, reinforcements etc are fine.
g) - optional - If you think it is useful, the IJF will not innitiate troop relocations by air or sea transport to other locations, than those of the "historic" invasion places in the first move. In this case the allied player is denied the same option for the first move.
h) - Port attacks - IJF launches three port strikes (PH + Naga + Guam) in Suprise start. IJF is allowed to perform three attacks wherever appropriate (bombardment or air).



a) Bases
Any base can be taken any time (after the first move restrictions expire) till 1.1.43 without a requirement to keep a garrison in place. Beyond that - except for the odd auto conversion - garrisons are required. The allied player will only use his "Raider" units for hit and run invasions behind enemy lines or within enemy controlled areas. Sub and Para invasions/landing are a valid option this way.

b) Air Units
1 - IJF player will not "upgrade" light bomber units beyond Lillys or Lilly upgrades - untill mid 44
2 - Allied player will not "upgrade" single or dual engine units to 4E units, unless these units have the option to upgrade to 4E - like in a PDU-Off situation that is.
3 - Corsairs are not deployd to USN carrier service till 1.1.44. RN Carriers may use early Corsair models at the allied players discretion.
4 - The AVG is restricted to Burma, India and China (these chaps are pretty much overrated anyway)
5 - Strategic bombing of the Japanese home islands may commence starting third quarter 1944 from Chinese bases. Except for one go earlier to emulate the "Doolittle Raid"
6 - All allied air units - except US AAF - will require PPs to move into China and conduct other operations than transport
7 - IJF will use historic AC on carriers only - till say mid 45 (in case any CVs are left). Unless allied player allows otherwise.
8 - "Stacking" of air units at a base is limited to 50 AC of any description per airfield size plus 50 floatplanes. Zero size bases or "dots" can hold up to 50 Floatplanes. Surplus AC are to be set to "training level 0". Both sides have about 7 moves to "resolve" the issue at startup.

c) Ground Units
1 - Russia stays neutral till activaded by the game engine. All allied units entering russian territory are interned for the duration of the game and may not participate in any fighting unless attacked.
2 - China and Mandshuria.
Option a - Units of both Commands and all chinese troops - are free to move.
Option b - Mandshuria units require PPs to move to China and Chinese troops require PPs when moving west of the border. If the latter is agreed, I would request to make the Chinese Communist units static - which is quite historical, since the quite usefull "Mongol" units have changed to the Manshuria command since 2.02 and the Garrison requirements are very much increased/original LCU composition decreased
No non-chinese allied LCUs - except those in support of air units - may enter China without paying PPs - including the Chinese units in Burma at start up. If forced to China, the units go neutral (no combat, no replacements, moving behind the front lines if possible) unitl PPs are payed.
3 - LCU stacking - for Atolls and and single hex islands, I am open for suggestions. Probably some sort of connection between base points and combat units allowed. Would add a lot of strategical head aches for where and when property improvements should be attempted [;)]

d) Naval Units
1 - ASW "Hunter - Killer" TFs are restricted to 6 or 8 ships of any type.
2 - Units of AG, PT or any sort of landing ship types may not move beyond their defined endurance unless escorted by ships with sufficient fuel (plus/minus 2 hexes). If those escorts get sunk, and the escorted units cannot reach a friendly port within their remaining fuel, those units will be scuttled at the next possible move.
3 - IJN Subs will not carry any other AC than Glens.
4 - Any surface war ship starting with DE/DD classes may not be replenished at bases with less than a port size of 2 (two). Unless at least one AE, AD, AO (any support ships, excluding AV/AVD/AR) type ship is present and "Docked" (with or without supplies). In case some sort of "automatic" replenishment occurs, those ships affected will stay put for two moves.
5. PT stacking in a port should be limited
6. Single ship TFs are limited to 3 per hex - including ports - after 1.1.42. Does not apply for subs or damaged ships.

e) AAR
Both players may start an AAR on the WitP message board. Each player may state the character of this - or any other related thread - off limits for the opponent or not.


Final:
If "consolidated", all agreed upon "house rules" are subject to negotiation, to keep the game challanging and interesting for both sides.
If "histrory" or "gamey" becomes a question, the message board or "The West Point Military History" series of publications will settle any disputes.
And of course bring along any books and references available - may add another "learning curve" -even though these sources are not considerd "final" if not agreed upon

Uff. That was that.
Let me know what you think. I am of course open to any changes and suggestions.

Cheers


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Remember that the first law of motion is to look where you're going. A man with a stiff neck has no place in an airplane.
Technical Manual No. 1-210, Elementary Flying, War Department, Washington,
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Przemcio231
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Location: Warsaw,Poland,EU:)

RE: Request for allied opponent - CHS

Post by Przemcio231 »

[:D]Are you able to play in the morning during the week?? BTW Nice show by the German team in the WC[:D]
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Pinky: Hey Brain what are we goeing to do this evening?
Brain: The Usual Pinky we will try to take over the World;)
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vonSchnitter
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RE: Request for allied opponent - CHS

Post by vonSchnitter »

Hehe,

you mean a first mug of coffee in the morning, delay taking a shower and brushing your teeth - plus damm the boss, I need to win a war - kind of move ? [:D]

If you get yours in before 5:30 GMT - the answer is yes

Cheers
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Remember that the first law of motion is to look where you're going. A man with a stiff neck has no place in an airplane.
Technical Manual No. 1-210, Elementary Flying, War Department, Washington,
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Przemcio231
Posts: 1901
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:39 am
Location: Warsaw,Poland,EU:)

RE: Request for allied opponent - CHS

Post by Przemcio231 »

Hmmmm where in Germany do you live... we are neiboughrs you know... BTW i like your house rules do you consider adding some??
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Pinky: Hey Brain what are we goeing to do this evening?
Brain: The Usual Pinky we will try to take over the World;)
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vonSchnitter
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RE: Request for allied opponent - CHS

Post by vonSchnitter »

Hi Pr..huh [;)]

went shopping this morning - no beer left - and guess what: everyone in Germany still had a big smile on his/hers/its (err dogs, cats, cattle) face. Car drivers smiling at you - at a red light. Something is wrong here ... [;)]
Even the chaps in the shops are all smile and friendly. Guess they are still besotted by the outcome.
Anyway Italy-Germany is an all time-classic.

I am living rather close to Cologne (same town as the Schumachers - and more important right now, Prince Poldies former team)

HRs are there for discussion. Wide open for suggestions - as long as you accept the "adaptability" over time/developements point

Cheers
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Remember that the first law of motion is to look where you're going. A man with a stiff neck has no place in an airplane.
Technical Manual No. 1-210, Elementary Flying, War Department, Washington,
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Przemcio231
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Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:39 am
Location: Warsaw,Poland,EU:)

RE: Request for allied opponent - CHS

Post by Przemcio231 »

Hmmm Poland has the best Players in the WC but they play for your team...[:D] My Aunt lives in Gottingen any here are the rules i like of so lets just pick up the best from my and your set and we can start with Historical 1st turn... Do you play on AB ext Map???
 
[font="times new roman"]Ground Unit Stacking[/font][/b]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Atolls: No more than 50,000 troops of any type.  Of the 50,000, only 1 division or brigade and no more than 3 SNLF or NLF or Allied equivalent. [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Non-atoll one hex islands:  No more than 100,000 troops of any type.  Of the 100,000, only 1 division AND 1 brigade AND 6 SNLF, Nav. Guard or NLF allowed (or their Allied equivalents).[/font]
[font="times new roman"](Pearl Harbor and Truk are exempted from the rule) [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Engineering units with combat capabilties count as SNLF or NLF for the above purpose.  Construction units, base units, AA, and HQ do not count as combat units.[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Zones of Control[/font][/b]
[font="times new roman"] [/font][/b]
[font="times new roman"]Zones of control may only be exerted for surrender or retreat purposes by ground units of 25 assault points or higher for dense terrain hexes (forest, hills, jungle, etc.) and by ground units adding up to at least 100 assault points for clear, desert or otherwise open terrain.
 
For example, you cannot join combat in a hex with an enemy division and simultaneously surround that unit with pieces of base units or flak guns with few or no assault points.  Additionally, you cannot paradrop into hexes for the same purpose unless you drop in at least the above strengths.[/font]

[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]PDU[/font][/b]
[font="times new roman"] [/font][/b]
[font="times new roman"]No PDU of Japanese DBs into 2E.  No Allied upgrade of 2E to 4E, except for a few Bolo squadrons already slated for such upgrades at the beginning of the game.  Otherwise, PDU upgrades allowed, except that Glens can't be upgraded. It was the only plane that was built for submarine deployments.[/b][/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Soviet Union[/b][/b][/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]If Japan decides to attack SU the Allied player should be informed on that fact 30 days before the attack so he can reposition his troops... “One suprise attack in the start of the war would not be repeted that easly”  [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Invasions[/font][/b]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Invasions may only be conducted within normal range of LBA (not patrol/recon), or CV airgroups (fighter or bomber) (if CVs, (CVLs/CVEs) then combined aircraft capacity of 40 is needed).[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]No submarine invasion’s[/font]
[font="times new roman"]No amphibious invasions (or reinforcement) may be conducted West and North of Singapore in Malacca Straight until that city is captured. No Invasion’s on eastern part of Malaya south of Kuantan[/font]
[font="times new roman"]No amphibious invasions/para drops against hexes that do not contain a dot/base in them.[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Japanese may only invade bases in Malaya , Phillipines , DEI , New Britain , Gilberts , Bismarck Archipelago until all Resource , Oil producing Bases in the DEI and the whole Java are captured  this is to simulate that the main goal for Japan were DEI Resources. [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Off course invasion of Wake do not count... [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Note. 2 Bases in Malacca Straight can be invaded only after Singapore has fallen. [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Aircraft[/font][/b]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Night Bombing. City attacks (Manpower only) for non-game designated air units (means 2E Bombers) . No City bombing Attacks on bases in China
 No restriction on night naval attacks. [/font]

[font="times new roman"](This is mainly to prevent the Japanese from destroying Chinese industry and resources.  [/font]
[font="times new roman"]This rule is immediately abolished for the Japanese only if Allies conduct city attacks from Chinese airfields. (e.g. B-17 raid from Changsha = Japanese can attack industry, resources, etc. with all bomber types, but the Allies still can only use 4E bombers for this role).  This is give some protection to Chinese supply, yet some deterrent from using China a huge strategic bombing base.[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]No 4E bomber missions under 6000', except for ASW/Recon missions. [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]No Corsair's allowed on US CV's until 1/44, except for transport missions.[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]No Naval Attack by Allied land based bombers (2E bombers) under 1000', [/font]
[font="times new roman"]until 1/43.[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Airfield stacking limited to (50ac x airfield level).
   Units transferring must be set to training and do not count against the stacking limits.[/font]

[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]No bombing of empty bases, but bombing/attacking bases with troops present is allowed to gain experience[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Naval[/font][/b]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]No baiting of naval air strikes by using small tonnage or single ship task forces in port (especially in the DEI and PI at the beginning of the game).[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]The Japanese player must keep at least 100 AKs continually either in Osaka or actively dropping off supply or picking up resources to simulate Japan's need for food and fuel for domestic use.[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]No restrictions on mining.[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]ASW TF max 6 ships and no Admirals asigned to command this TF [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Only one KB attack on Pearl and after It KB must reach its designated home port in Kuriles before comencing other Operations. If Wake is not captured on turn one Assalut KB may be used to support another Wake Landing if Japan plans to conduct it but after Wake fall’s it still need’s to head back to any Port in Mainland Japan... [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Ground[/font][/b]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]No breakdown of LCU's in combat to reduce fatigue and disruption.[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]LCU's belonging to the Kwangtung command may not leave Manchuria[/font][font="times new roman"] unless PP's are
   spent to change their command.
   LCU's belonging to China Command may not leave China or Manchuria, unless they change command.[/font]

[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Only one AA unit per base Allowed and no AA units fighting outside bases. The exeptions are Japan Main Land and Truk  max stacking 2 AA units per base PH max 2 AA units , Singapore ,  and places where AA units from the Island are pushed into one base by attacking units and have no place to go... [/font]
 
 
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Pinky: Hey Brain what are we goeing to do this evening?
Brain: The Usual Pinky we will try to take over the World;)
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vonSchnitter
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RE: Request for allied opponent - CHS

Post by vonSchnitter »

Our best players from Poland ... naah [:)]
Do not forget Asamoa (sp) from Gahna or thereabouts and that young chap on the german right flank - cannot recollect the name - the squirrely one .... and of course Neuville (sp ?) - the one swiss to score with penalties !

Well, lets poke into your suggestions one by one ? Just to keep focused ?

A rule for stacking is needed. No doubt. But ist should reflect a) strategical decisions and b) operational requirements, c) common sense and d) fog of war.

I would suggest a linkage (for atolls and 1 hex islands at least) between base size (port, field, fortification) and garrison. Or better still for geographic or command areas where bases had a big strategical meaning (Southeast fleet and 4th fleet for Jap (probably nothern command), SWPAC, Central Pac etc. for allied)
The link could work along something like:
X amount of attack value for the occupant per base point (Airfield/port) say 50/100/150 plus x/2 (half, quarter whatever) per fortification. Till a certain threshold is reached - 3/4 port, 4 airfield, 7/8/9 forts - where the number of troops will no longer be restricted (FOW and reduction of predictability) and if we want to complicate things - a bonus for support units before reaching the limit !
This way the decision of strategical "diggings" in the pacific part will be pretty much compoundet for both sides. It does favour the defender though - but a 3 to 1 is a time honoured concept anyway ?

Just me 2c !

Cheers



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Remember that the first law of motion is to look where you're going. A man with a stiff neck has no place in an airplane.
Technical Manual No. 1-210, Elementary Flying, War Department, Washington,
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VSWG
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RE: Request for allied opponent - CHS

Post by VSWG »

and that young chap on the german right flank - cannot recollect the name - the squirrely one ....

[:D][:D][:D]

David Odonkor. But that's the perfect description for him. [:D]

Uh, err, I have nothing else to say. Good luck to both of you.
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Przemcio231
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RE: Request for allied opponent - CHS

Post by Przemcio231 »

Thanks[:D]
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Brain: The Usual Pinky we will try to take over the World;)
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RE: Request for allied opponent - CHS

Post by vonSchnitter »

While trying to determine the original "nationality" of the various "german" team players, the house rules are still an issue...
The main point is about LCUs - not really since I caved in, but I would like to learn about your thoughts


I would like to include ALL bases inside the Pacific into the equation - exept for PH, Australia + NZ Mainlands, Luzon (pi), Formosa, the islands between Formosa and Japan. (Probably some bases around Alaska) And it does not matter who is filed as the landlord !
And it would be easier to apply one quota rule for all of them.

Lets compare the calculations:
Atoll:
Max assault value - ignoring the total number of "heads": 1 Div (450 if square, 350 if triangle ), 3 NLFs about 320 - max 770 assault value
Island:
1 Div (450 if square, 350 if triangle ), 1 Brigade (250), 6 NLFs about 620 - max 1420 assault value

Other bases like Port Moresby and Lunga are not included - and the Allies have no need to build up their logistics system - except for convenience of loading/unloading ships.

My suggestion: - keep in mind the multiplyers need to be fixed.

Example Atoll: Most should be in the 1 Port/1 AF range with a max of 4/4 a few are larger, some are smaller
Dot level: Max 100 assault value - accomodation on one base, some engineers plus a small NLF - start digging boys !

Solution A)
Assuming we allow 100 assault points (aps) per base point (af or port) a small base could end up at 900 aps (100 from the start + 800) - if we make it 75 aps per base point we would end up with 700 aps.

Solution B)
Assuming we allow a quota of aps for af, port AND forts: that would be 8+9 = 17 possible. At a quota of 50 aps per base point we would end up at 100 + 850 = 950 aps

Bases larger than 4 port / 4 AF get a Bonus of either 250 or 500 aps per additonal base point - important for staging areas (places like PM, Eniwetok, Ulithi)

What does this do ? Engineer units become an important asset to both sides (SeaBees get a purpose in the game). A strategic build up in an area will require a tremendous amount of supplies (plus a lot of time and/or engeeers) which really puts a premium on continous support of all forces and the "fort" thing adds to the FOW issue - good and continuous surveilance of bases becomes essential to planning. On the log run the strategical impact is obvious: The allies have a problem to build up usefull staging areas, while the Japanese will be in a lot of trouble trying to maintain a defensive perimeter due to logistics problems.

In combat: ACTUAL aps is what counts - this way a base poundet by air or sea attack and any sort of germs (malaria) - or after a failed invasion etc may be reinforced from the outside with new units.

Of course, adding a sort of "bonus" for allied HQs - for staging areas - should make an appearance.

What do you think ?

Cheers
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Remember that the first law of motion is to look where you're going. A man with a stiff neck has no place in an airplane.
Technical Manual No. 1-210, Elementary Flying, War Department, Washington,
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