PzB vs Wobbly - Clash of Steel

[Sneer]

I would move KB to Shanghai for a next 2-3 days
just in case

[Honda]

Karachi? [:D]

[Fishbed]

This Carrier groups are quite weak, there is not so much air escort, apparently everything is allocated to the CAP... If you send your boys under CAP umbrella the Helldivers may dive to hell a little quicker [;)]

Btw how is Mac gonna protect his invasion force with so many Carriers at sea? [&:]

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: PzB

There's a big super heavy Artillery Brigade in China with 24x240mm and 36x150 mm guns [:D]

But those aren´t capable of shooting at ships. Do you think it´s worth loosing them if they only inflict some casualties at his infantry?

[Fishbed]

hey looking in the archives for interesting stuff, I found this is one Mogami's AAR
 

Air attack on Emirau Island , at 60,84

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 48
B6N Jill x 18
P1Y Frances x 20

Allied aircraft
F4U-1 Corsair x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 12 destroyed
B6N Jill: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1 Corsair: 13 destroyed, 1 damaged
SBD Dauntless: 3 destroyed, 6 damaged
PB4Y Liberator: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 18

Aircraft Attacking:
16 x B6N Jill bombing at 5000 feet
15 x P1Y Frances bombing at 9000 feet
3 x P1Y Frances bombing at 9000 feet
1 x B6N Jill bombing at 5000 feet
2 x P1Y Frances bombing at 9000 feet
Air attack on Shortlands , at 63,93

 
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=562039&mpage=2
 
Even accounting for some ground losses, how does this kind of things can happen? That should be reproductible!

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

hey looking in the archives for interesting stuff, I found this is one Mogami's AAR

Air attack on Emirau Island , at 60,84

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 48
B6N Jill x 18
P1Y Frances x 20

Allied aircraft
F4U-1 Corsair x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 12 destroyed
B6N Jill: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1 Corsair: 13 destroyed, 1 damaged
SBD Dauntless: 3 destroyed, 6 damaged
PB4Y Liberator: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 18

Aircraft Attacking:
16 x B6N Jill bombing at 5000 feet
15 x P1Y Frances bombing at 9000 feet
3 x P1Y Frances bombing at 9000 feet
1 x B6N Jill bombing at 5000 feet
2 x P1Y Frances bombing at 9000 feet
Air attack on Shortlands , at 63,93

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=562039&mpage=2

Even accounting for some ground losses, how does this kind of things can happen? That should be reproductible!

In this case, A6M5 outnumber Corsair by 3 to 1, and air losses should be even between both sides. We don't know how many of the Corsairs were destroyed on the ground. Also there was probably only one defending unit. So Mog or his opponent get lucky for once, or the US pilots were flying LRCAP and very tired or whatever.

But in a battle ten times greater, with 480 A6M5 facing 140 Corsairs, statistics will go back in USN favor. But a CV battle will be more some hundred Zekes facing several hundred Corsairs/Hellcats, launching a concentrated raid is far more difficult than combing CAP in WITP.

PzB I find interesting that Andy is fanning out with his CVs. It should be possible one day to strike one and overwhelm it. But I think you should stick with your plan and keep all your AC in reserve until the invasion convoy arrives.

In the meantime maybe you can use transport AC to ferry more troops in Pagan ?

As for the 240mm guns, bringing them out of China was a good idea but they won't fire on bombardment TF, only CD guns do. But they will fire on landing troops and ships and will then devastate them!!! By the way, it seems to me that the Saipan Base Force has 8in CD guns ?

[Fishbed]

Yep Admiral of course you're right [:)]
 
Here btw are some interesting stuff from String trials one year ago with big Kami concentrated strikes. But no idea if this can be achieved without overstacking or without the Kami thing... But most of the plane were flying normal missions, so there is some hope if the rule didn't change in the patchs...?
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=876188&mpage=1
 

[veji1]

it would be great to see a test done with NikMod 7 on that issue, with the tweaked f2F in A2A...

Late war testing is really the key there...

Anyway be brave PZB, make the emperor proud of you !!!

[AmiralLaurent]

The key will be to be able to hit the transport TF rather than the CV... CAP will usually be lower over them.

In WITP you can try to do it by reducing the range of your attack unit.

In UV I managed this by doing something else. On the turn I wanted to launch my attack, I turned all naval search off. To replace it I sent subs and warships into the attacked bases, and if troops had allready been landed, I sent as much recon planes as I could there. The combinasion of ground spotters, recon and ships was usually high enough to trigger naval attack raids.
I tried this 3 times and it worked 2 (that is raids were launched on the exact hex I wanted): once I sank 1 BB, 1 CLAA, and a dozen minor ships for the loss of 400 AC, the other I sank 2 CVE and 5-6 transports for the loss of 100, the last there was no raid.

In WITP you can do this by sending AC in your invaded bases with naval search orders 100%, range 0. But that will have to be tested. The problem here is that you will hit ships probably after they began landing troops. Could be a good idea if the base is well defended by ART and mines, and so a part of the ships will be damaged and AA reduced. If Allied troops land but without much supplies, they won't be a threat and may be stranded, or at least heavily damaged before the base falls.

[RUPD3658]

ORIGINAL: PzB

There's a big super heavy Artillery Brigade in China with 24x240mm and 36x150 mm guns [:D]

8th Heavy arty brigade. Well worth the 600 PPs to buy it from Kwangtung. [&o]

I have had great success with it in China.

[PzB74]

Seems like Andy is pulling his troops further out, so the fleet is safe in its anchorage.

The 240 and 150mm guns are meant to be invasion fleet destroyers. Each of the islands in
the Marianas got big Coastal Defence Units. The largest one is in Saipan and fields 8" guns.
The 240mm guns were sent to Saipan a long time ago, regret it now. Should have sent em to Pagan...

Admiral, I will try your recon trick [:)] I know night air attacks often aids subs to their targets
and increase the chance of succesful night naval air attacks by Emily's.

Since I think Andy's occupied with my troop convoy and only 1 enemy carrier TF is close to the Marianas
I've decided that it's time for a test. Not a lot of crack fighters, but a sizeable number of escorts will
attempt to lead 250 bombers towards some of the US bird farms. Rainy tomorrow and I'm not sure Andy
will actually sail within 6 hexes of Saipan.

Thanx for the input guys, greatly appreciated. I do make use of this info and my victories are also yours [&o]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/24/44

Air Combat

My Emily's on night naval attack decided to attack barges in mid ocean hex! [:@]
(NE of Timor)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on TF at 32,74

Japanese aircraft
H8K Emily x 6

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
LCI LCI-435
LCT LCT-158

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x H8K Emily launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x H8K Emily launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm a bit curious about these strikes against Wake Island. Unloading a troop
convoy there right now - at least this one got through.

Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 6
A6M5 Zeke x 21

Allied aircraft
F-5C Lightning x 7
PB4Y Liberator x 6
B-24J Liberator x 39

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
A6M5 Zeke: 5 destroyed, 12 damaged
H8K Emily: 1 destroyed
G4M2 Betty: 1 destroyed
Ki-46-III Dinah: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F-5C Lightning: 2 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 7 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
21 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 10
Airbase supply hits 5
Runway hits 76
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pagan was hit by a small strike...moved some Oscars in just for shows sake.

Day Air attack on Pagan , at 64,62

Allied aircraft
SB2C Helldiver x 24

Allied aircraft losses
SB2C Helldiver: 1 destroyed, 6 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
14 casualties reported

Runway hits 10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My unfortunate troop convoy was caught between no less than 2 enemy carrier TFs and
6-7 ships were hit hard with 2 sunk. Still, the larger part should reach Bonin
and Marcus islands tomorrow. Again it was a good idea to move troops in twice as many
ships as neeed. Bonin Island got 350 CAP fighters to protect the transports with now.

I've listed the individual ships that got hit. The small escorts took a lot of the
heat and saved many troops today [&o]

PG Tosho Maru, Bomb hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
PC Ch 32, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
PC PC-17, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
PC PC-16, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
PC Ch 6, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

AP Kiko Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Kasima Maru, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
AP Yuzan Maru, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Hokutatsu Maru, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Genbu Maru, Bomb hits 13, on fire, heavy damage
AK Menado Maru, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Haaburu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Kasui Maru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Yubae Maru, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
55 casualties reported
Guns lost 2
88 casualties reported
Guns lost 5
346 casualties reported
Guns lost 15
23 casualties reported
29 casualties reported
37 casualties reported
71 casualties reported
82 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Enemy Deep Strikes

Andy's nose didn't fail him - no less than 2 of the carrier TF's headed for the convoy
he just spotted yesterday and left most of the empty ships alone.

Let's see if we can blunt his force a bit...a strong effort against 'weak' enemy units
got a fair chance of success.

[pauk]

what is sizeable number of fighters to you? Can you count that your escort will outnumber Allied CAP? if the answer is yes then sounds as a good try....[:)]

Otherwise, i suspect that Samurais will commit

[PzB74]

If 250 fighters can escort 150 bombers in a single strike the enemy carrier TF will be toast [;)]
Knowing this game it will be 140 fighters and 40 bombers were 4 return to base

[pauk]

good luck with that one. I suppose you are aware that air balance number (shown at the base hex) offer great intel to the enemy - so if Andy moves cursor over the base he will know that you move plenty of planes.

"Red cross" is nothing compared to air balance number...

[PzB74]

Surprising Andy is like winning in lotto...
Today he merged all his 3 carrier TF's outside Bonin Island. Bad weather
prevented PM strikes and only 1 AP and a few escorts were sunk during the AM phase.
The CAP trap caught 24 SBD's but they turned around due to bad morale pretty quickly.

5 transports are unloading parts of the 91st Div at Marcus Island while 4 are left to unload
at Bonin.

A large enemy fleet is moving out from the Marshalls towards Eniwetok. In a few days we'll
know which direction they'll be heading.

All the carriers of Strike Force I have reached Japan. They will move to Naha with cv Akoma
in 4 days. One more week and we'll be receiving Franks. 2 weeks and we'll upgrade the first
Tojos and the first Franks should be ready for combat in ca 3.

All Zeke's Daitais that are depleted now will not be trained until after the next battle.
It's important to provide a lot of 'support' for the more experienced units. This way the
crack pilots stand a better chance to survive. Bomber units with 20 crack pilots will also
receive green replacements as these will be the first be shot down by enemy CAP/FLAK.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/25/44

Air Combat

Gawd I'm tired of these ocean going barges!

Night Air attack on TF at 33,76

Japanese aircraft
H8K Emily x 6

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
LCT LCT-158
LCT LCT-148

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x H8K Emily launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x H8K Emily launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
F-5C Lightning x 5
PB4Y Liberator x 5
B-24J Liberator x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 3 destroyed
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
PB4Y Liberator: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
14 casualties reported

Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 31
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 68,52

Allied aircraft
SB2C Helldiver x 27

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
PC Ch 6, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 69,52

Allied aircraft
TBM Avenger x 17

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
PC PC-16, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Bonin at 65,52

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 27
J1N1-S Irving x 14
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 35
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 33
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 20
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 32

Allied aircraft - chiken run.... [8|]
SB2C Helldiver x 26

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
SB2C Helldiver: 7 destroyed, 1 damaged
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 66,52

Allied aircraft
SB2C Helldiver x 23

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AP Haaburu Maru, Bomb hits 7, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
286 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 68,52

Allied aircraft
SB2C Helldiver x 16

Allied aircraft losses
SB2C Helldiver: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
PC PC-15, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 33,77

Japanese aircraft
D4Y Judy x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y Judy: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
AK Elna, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
LCT LCT-366, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[PzB74]

Enemy carriers retreats South by East. Andy did not want to challenge the CAP over
the Bonins. So we managed to unload the rest of our division. Some 180 AP left of 350 [:(]
The 91st Division will remain on Bonin and Marcus Island and strengthen the garrisons there.

The enemy invasion force is now at Eniwetok and tomorrow we should se which direction it takes.

I'm considering to send my mine layers back to the Marianas to refresh the minefields and try
to add some to the open water hexes around the islands.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/26/44

Sub/ASW Attacks

There are several enemy subs around and in the ports of Manila and Jesselton.
Several have been hit and 'sub sinking' messages are quite frequent.

The Pipefish got a clean kill today:

Sub attack at 42,52

Japanese Ships
AK Ina Maru, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
SS Pipefish
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Air Combat

Dozens of air strikes but only the one against Wake Island had any strategic value.
In return our LBA hit a convoy of the Northern tip of PNG. These unescorted convoys
are pretty reckless of Andy but a necessity for having captured bases this far ahead.

Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
F-5C Lightning x 6
PB4Y Liberator x 6
B-24J Liberator x 23

Japanese aircraft losses
H8K Emily: 1 destroyed

Japanese ground losses:
14 casualties reported

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 5
Runway hits 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 34,80

Japanese aircraft
D4Y Judy x 18

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
LCT LCT-161
LCT LCT-329, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
SC SC-982, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
LCT LCT-134
LCT LCT-156, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 44,72

Japanese aircraft
P1Y Frances x 4
Ki-21 Sally x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
P1Y Frances: 1 damaged
Ki-21 Sally: 6 damaged

Allied Ships
AK Kate Douglas Wiggin
AK Lawrence Gianella, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
AK Joseph Simon
AK Joseph Henry, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AK John W. Hoyt, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK John J. Ingalls, Bomb hits 1, on fire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 44,72

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21 Sally x 8

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
AK Lawrence Gianella, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage *sinks*
AK John W. Hoyt, on fire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[pauk]

that's why i so much hate air balance numbers!

[veji1]

Well I would think it shouldn't be too difficult to hide them to the players... I mean planes could still "sense" it to determine whether they strike or not, but players wouldn't see them... This way one just needs to leave planes in every bases ( chutais of dive bombers or FBs or NFs would do the trick since they are useless anyway ), and boom, problem of red cross and air balance solved...

[Sneer]

after seeing String's kamikaze test I think PZB should surrender [;)]
if 3000+ planes with numerous kamikaze could do nothing ......

Maybe Matrix will do some serious change in engine sometime when they see people are rather unhappy with certain areas of game mechanics[8|]

[veji1]

well I would really like to see a similar test done with NikMod conditions, especially Nikmod 7.0...

Is someone willing to try ?

Anyway PZB, We are with you there... The decisive battle is there coming to you, decisive in the sense that if he flattens you, you will be done before 1945, while if you manage to repulse it or hurt him badly, you can at least have a glimpse at the new toys before you die...