Lunacy AND Shrewdness

[BLurking]

Be sure to divide your divisions, also.

Once he starts ground attacks with his bombers the whole division won't get hit, just the /A /B or /C unit.
Keeps you from getting absolutely clobbered from the air, since bombers will typically attack the strongest unit.

If you do this, also make sure the regiments have a decent commander - no sense in splitting the division if the sub-commands have 2LT Joe Blow in charge...

[VSWG]

ORIGINAL: itsjustme

Aztez- I have reinforcements coming, but am not sure that they will be enough. Two Chindit brigades (115 AV each) coming in about a week and 3 support units (A couple of EAB and Enginneering Units) also in about 10 days. The heavies start arriving in about 35 days (including Fort Scott, two HQs, some chinese divisions, Indian Division, etc). Also about 25 days out from heavy air reinforcements including 72 Warhawks.

Karachi is now at Lvl 7 and is about 200 support points below Green. Can I hold?

Also, the Valiant is schedule to show in about 20 days. Thoughts on whether I leave her in port and hope she puts another couple shells in the Battleline before she sinks or should I try and get her out and to Perth?

I'd say Karachi is safe. He won't reduce the forts fast enough to take it within a month, especially with the Chindits reinforcing your defenses in between.

The Valiant will sink, no doubt, but I would leave her in port. This way, Nemo's torpedo bombers have to fight against heavy flak/cap when trying to sink her, and she has a fair chance to damage one of his BBs.

[ADavidB]

Karachi is now at Lvl 7 and is about 200 support points below Green. Can I hold?

You need to inspire your troops with a rousing speech:

"...we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the brothels..."

Ooops, sorry - wrong speech... [:D] [;)]

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi

[ny59giants]

The longer Karachi remains, the more ranting I can read in Nemo's AAR.[:D]

[Redd]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

The longer Karachi remains, the more ranting I can read in Nemo's AAR.[:D]

Man, you ain't kidding there. If he's not careful he's gonna blow a gasket.

[Feinder]

Can he voluntarily withdraw reinforcement ships? It's kinda stupid to think that old Winny would send ships to the port under siege, just so they could be destroyed (not to mention how they got there). I don't have a problem with Nemo bombing them as they appear, this is a lunacy game after all. But you would have the turn that the ship arrived to withdraw it (maybe). Can you withdraw ships from Karachi on the turn they arrive? Or can you only withdraw them if Winny asks for them. I've never tried it.

-F-

[Nomad]

Only if old Horses Butt askes for them. [:D] But Trey can send them on a one turn surface combat run. Or try a high speed run to see if some of them get out. [8D] I think Nemo could have a probem if he can't take Karachi now. [8|]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: itsjustme

So the game continues, but it is clear that Nemo is doing so begrudgingly.  I am going to simply continue as is unless it becomes clear that he is not happy on a continuing basis.  I don't want another's enjoyment of the game to be corrupted, its no fun on either side when that happens.

He's not going to quit over this is he? That's the ONE MAJOR ISSUE with war games such as this...the underdog aggressor runs rampant and has a blast until the tide turns...then they bail denying the poor bastard who has been taking it up the arse for ages his kick at the can and a little enjoyment. Pathetic when that happens.[:@]

[itsjustme]

Re: Appearing Ships-
I've had them making a run for the corner of the map every time one of them shows up.  Most are making it out and once they do, there is nothing on station in the corner or along the map edge to stop them from heading to Perth.  Nothing stopping Nemo from doing it, so he must just not be thinking of it.
 
Re: Nemo quitting.
Ron, he's mad.  I've tried to be as fair minded as I can about it, but he disagrees.  He's played a brilliant game to date and I understand he's frustrated.  Candidly, if Karachi falls, its not ever going to develop into a series of collosal battles as I simply won't have the manpower to overcome that army in india being scattered across the pacific behind lvl 9 forts and all the airframes he can muster.    In any event, I offered a cease fire, and even offered to stop transporting non-indigenous units into Karachi and no offensives of any sort out of Karachi until 10/43.  He's elected to fight on.  Not sure what will happen if he doesn't take Karachi.  I hope he plays on as I think he may still win, even absent the fall of Karachi.  I intend to continue playing, so we'll see how it works out.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: itsjustme

Re: Appearing Ships-
I've had them making a run for the corner of the map every time one of them shows up.  Most are making it out and once they do, there is nothing on station in the corner or along the map edge to stop them from heading to Perth.  Nothing stopping Nemo from doing it, so he must just not be thinking of it.

Re: Nemo quitting.
Ron, he's mad.  I've tried to be as fair minded as I can about it, but he disagrees.  He's played a brilliant game to date and I understand he's frustrated.  Candidly, if Karachi falls, its not ever going to develop into a series of collosal battles as I simply won't have the manpower to overcome that army in india being scattered across the pacific behind lvl 9 forts and all the airframes he can muster.    In any event, I offered a cease fire, and even offered to stop transporting non-indigenous units into Karachi and no offensives of any sort out of Karachi until 10/43.  He's elected to fight on.  Not sure what will happen if he doesn't take Karachi.  I hope he plays on as I think he may still win, even absent the fall of Karachi.  I intend to continue playing, so we'll see how it works out.

Well, if anything, this AAR, along with other "lunacy" type games, really highlights just how screwy and laughably unrealistic the entire game design is. Sure it has it's good points but man, after all these years designing games one would think the basic product would be in a functional format by now. To have taken such a lunacy game seriously, and now say you have cheated and are playing contrary to the spirit of the game is simply ridiculous.

[mogami]

Hi, It is not game design. It is players being resourceful in finding how to maximize play.
In the old (cira 1979) SPI board game war in the Pacific it was found the Japanese could bypass Singapore and reach India before the end of Dec 1941 !!!! (One of the very first house rules was to decrese movement phases to 1/4 of design) In the SSI computer game India could be had by any Japanese player who decided to take it. The house rule was then no movement in CBI from Nov to April (all the major battles there were fought from May to Oct)
I would like the people who blame design for exploits to instead of posting their comments to simply post a design document that a future programmer can use that eliminates exploits while still allowing players who don't use exploits to have a plausable war.  No exploit in WITP is new, all of them exist in almost every game ever designed on the subject.  Map edge exploits exist in everygame that uses a map that is not the entire planet. (map edge exploits exist in naval games and space games as well as games on ground combat. )

Karachi in WITP does not represent a single city but rather all the allied bases off map that connect to India. The Japanese player is able to mount an attack towards a single hex and cut off access to the map from mulitple locations but protests when these resources are employed in it's defense.  Karachi can be taken (it has in other games) But since before the games release players were warned that this strategy was against design. Now when it is employed the design gets the blame.

If you try to fly a automobile off a cliff and fail you don't blame the designers for the bad flight performance
If you make a "Draino Milkshake" you can't blame the manufactor for the results. (It has a warning label)
Why is it players go directly against stated design intent in WITP and then post complaints about the results?

Why are some exploits used but others condemed? (Nemo exploited the design as part of his master plan but now worries over the other player doing the same)  while Nemo writes a fine AAR there is nothing in his plan that is new.
Do not confuse his "lunacy" with the 3 games I began with that label. My lunacy games were to test the impact of Japanese use of Kwantung units outside Manchuria/Korea nothing else. I used my normal game style and in fact while the 3 Allied players accepted the game only Nomad allowed the Japanese attack against the Soviets that these games were intended to test.  The other two players made sure that Japan was unable to transfer CEA units to make the attack possible.  (in effect they never were lunacy games)

Nemo's plan most resembles the old "Hirohito" plan that was tested by another.
I don't pretend to be any sort of "god of Operations" but I am much more interested in AAR from games where the Japanese player attempts to win without resorting to any plan that has known exploits as the major operational element.

Straight up: A valid Japanese plan for conduct of war should have as it's main component the defeat of the USN in the Central/South/North Pacific and the succesful establishment of a defensive line that prevent the use of Allied heavy bombers against targets inside the Japanese Home Islands. Not very exciting but this type of Japanese conduct produces the best games of WITP.
No design can force players into limiting their play to this type of game. Players can explore or experimant to their hearts content but they are warned the results are not claimed to reflect what some call historical.  exploit games can be fun and exciting but when the game fails to provide the desired results it is not honest to lay it on the design.  If Karachi had been intended to be a possible target for Japanese land assault the map would have been expanded (but then some other base would become a target however Karachi would not be so easy since other bases and forces could be employed in it's defense)

Japanese players who would enter Karachi should just consider the possible Allied exploits as nothing more then these other bases and forces being employed in it's defense. (Japan does not just need to defeat Karachi but the entire Allied war potentional in the off map area. She is able to confront these forces in a single location making their defeat easier in the long run then in a game where they were actually on map locations)

From "The need for House Rules WITP (SPI 1979)"
Need for House rules

- they correct loopholes in the rules which reward strongly
ahistorical behavior by players
- they are SHORT
- there is no increase in playing time or recordkeeping
- been tested using multiple scenarios and partial campaign games
(although the two campaign games we started after most of the
changes were introduced have not progressed into the second half of
the war yet)
- they are cautious, i.e., whenever there was a discussion whether
the alteration was sufficient, we chose to err on the side closer to
the original design.
- they are significant, i.e., they are not mere chrome, but exercise a
direct influence on the strategic planning of the players (with the
naval combat rule being the exception).

[itsjustme]

Just for the record, Mogami.  I am not complaining about anything in the design of the game.  I knew exactly what I was getting into, what the weaknesses were/are, and what would happen if those weaknesses were exploited to the maximum extent possible.  I'm fine with everything that has gone on up to this point and my only concern is that the game go on as it gives me alot of pleasure.  Hopefully Nemo will concur.

[mogami]

Hi, I know you were not complaining. I'm not going to bother posting to Nemo since he has already made up his mind. He has used the AAR as a wailing wall for quite a while.  Basicly he sometimes asks "why won't the designers make my exploits work better?"

This map shows Karachi.  everything not on WITP map is represented by the Karachi hex.



His complaints about Karachi demonstrate he is thinking and planning as if Karachi were the end of the earth. (Showing he made part of his master plan the map edge exploit)