Composite units

Norm Koger's The Operational Art of War III is the next game in the award-winning Operational Art of War game series. TOAW3 is updated and enhanced version of the TOAW: Century of Warfare game series. TOAW3 is a turn based game covering operational warfare from 1850-2015. Game scale is from 2.5km to 50km and half day to full week turns. TOAW3 scenarios have been designed by over 70 designers and included over 130 scenarios. TOAW3 comes complete with a full game editor.

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Legun
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Composite units

Post by Legun »

This is my campaign for the composite units:

There is an option, allowing to attach one unit to an other one. There are some conditions, of course - land unit to land unit, air to air, naval to naval, full cooperation. The attached unit could have saved own, separated TO&E, but it could have common prof, readiness, supply level and all other unit's parameters. All algorythms of calculating the parameters could be the same as in a case of subunits. Any split of the supported unit causes separation of the attached unit (split forced by combat result, too).
It could save the problem of micromanagement of ant units.
This would be handy for KGs. If the size restriction were based on the size icon, you could have an empty division (or whatever) sized KG unit appear and the player could use it to build up a kampfgruppe. (Ben Turner's idea)
This would be very handy for corps level scenarios. There are empty corps and divisions as attached units.
I think that it's really easy way to add next level of command structure without an interface revolution.
I've seen some reasons for the solution:
1) Management - a kampfgruppe (or just a main battle unit supported by some lower-size specialized units) consists of 2-5 units, now and needs many, many clicks to move or fight together. It could be much easier to move and set it to attack as a single unit, couldn't it?
2) Perception - such group of units is a group of "counters" now. It's not so easy to recognized their strength, health and just presence when the group is stacking. The composite unit is a single counter with a sum of possibilites shown at once.
3) Performance - if such main battle unit and stacking ant-units fight, prof check is made separately for each of them each time. That means, that there is high probability, that a engineer company is attacking separately, although an infantry brigade the company has to support has failed initial prof check when the company hasn't failed. It usually causes a massacre of the company. It could happen from time to time, but there could be a way to make a distingtion between two separated attacks - one made by brigade and one by company - and an attack of brigade supported by ATTACHED, SUBORDINATED company.
4) Simulation - this is just the way some armies acted and act. The Kampfgruppe was an important innovation, as well as American Combat Commands in armoured divisions.

The possibility of attaching other units should be depend on number of special equipment - "kampfgruppe command" (just copy of command group) - the unit has. One "kampfgruppe command" allows to attach 1/3 of unit size (a battalion for a regiment, a division for a corps). So, a designer decides if the possibility is used or not.
F.e. the regiment (if full size) should have a limit of 2 kampfgruppe commands, limiting possible attached units to two battalions. This way a desinger can limit size of attached units this way, that there is no doubt that the original type of unit isn't changed. He can always define "regimental KG" unit, with TO&E of 5 kampfgruppe commands only. This way a player can creat any ad-hoc unit as "supported regiment" - infantry, tank, engineer, AT etc.
This way you can simulate doctrinal problems of specific armies. Each of DAK regiments should have at least 3 kampfgruppe commands, when a British tank regiment shouldn't have any, at least at 41-43.

Some other possibilites opened by the composite units:
1) temporary motorization
example: - each British 1944 ID has a transport column - a subunit which can be attached to one of its brigades to give it motorized movement rate
2) supply-transport dillemma
example: - the British transport column has some supply squads in its TO&E; if you attached it to divisional HQ, formation supply level inceases; if you use it for transport purpose, the sulppy level falls
3) air transport possibility
example: - the Germans have an empty "airlift" unit and can attach a regiment of 6. Gebirge ID and send it to Crete
4) rearment
example: - each British armoured regiment on the desert consists of basic "mother" unit and independent tank battalions (up to 3) of different types of tank; if you get a Grant battalion as a reinforcements, you can replace old Crusader battalion by the new one.

It could look like:
Image
Ralph - please, give my the composite units!
http://www.tdg.nu/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1148781589
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*Lava*
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RE: Composite units

Post by *Lava* »

Indeed,

I would like to see a "combine" feature.

However, I think it should be well thought out. While I don't want to see "Gorrilla units" I think combining smaller units (say artillery regiment) with larger "mother" units (say an infantry division) would be very kewl. This, however, could be quite difficult to do with the engine. Not sure if it can handle it.

If nothing else, unit types such as "KG, BG and CCA" could serve as a mother unit to combine a number of units probably best limited in some way (say 3 in total).

Ray (alias Lava)
Legun
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RE: Composite units

Post by Legun »

However, I think it should be well thought out. While I don't want to see "Gorrilla units" I think combining smaller units (say artillery regiment) with larger "mother" units (say an infantry division) would be very kewl.
I can't find the word "kewl" in my dictionary :(. But - sure, there should be no possibility to "ugrade" an unit too much. It should be a desiger decision, with default settings - no attaments. Maximal available number should be 5/3 of unit's size (in the case of "empty" structures of kampfgruppes, combat commands etc., I suppose). New, detailed proposition - see below.
This, however, could be quite difficult to do with the engine. Not sure if it can handle it.
I don't think so - it could be based on existing sub units procedures. Ralph's previous reaction on SZO wasn't freezing, AFAIR.


Ralph - please, give my the composite units!
http://www.tdg.nu/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1148781589
Legun
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RE: Composite units

Post by Legun »

Connected propositions of structure modifications:

Defined sutructure of sub-units
A desinger can define a number of sub-units an unit can be divided for. Default value is 3. Possible values: 1-2-3-4. HQ, supply, naval and air units havn't such possibility, of course. The option to decide for how many sub-unit an unit should be divided isn't available for a player anymore.

Editable army level structure
A designer can change and rename unit's army identity. Default value is based on the colour of counter (from darkblue/0 to 22/4). It can be changed to make two units of diferent colours belonging to the same army and rename - f.e. to Germany/Wehrmacht or UK/2nd Army.

Composite units
Basic conditions of units' attaching - land unit to land unit, air to air, naval to naval, full cooperation.
Limits of units' attaching - a number as the number of 1/3 subunits (0-5), defined by a designer in editor, in unit's menu (default=0)

So, instead of present data in OOB txt file:

$$$BEGIN UNIT
$$$NAME:Combat Command A
$$$ICON:Tank
$$$COLOR:87
$$$SIZE:Brigade
$$$EXPERIENCE:untried
$$$PROFICIENCY:40
$$$READINESS:100
$$$SUPPLY:100

We've got:

$$$BEGIN UNIT
$$$NAME:Combat Command A
$$$ICON:Tank
$$$COLOR:87
$$$FORCE:Force 1 (possible rename to: US)
$$$ARMY:Army 1 (possible rename to: Army)
$$$SIZE:Brigade
$$$SUBUNITS:3 (default - possible values 1-4)
$$$ATTACHEMENTS:3 (default=0 - possible values 0-5)
$$$EXPERIENCE:untried

New unit's menu:
Image
Ralph - please, give my the composite units!
http://www.tdg.nu/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1148781589
Legun
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RE: Composite units

Post by Legun »

This is the proposed window in scenario editor. The shown units are an example of my approach to the problem. This is the US 1st Armoured Division in Tunisia. The 3 combat commands consist orginally of single M3 tank. They could be used as kampfgruppes or as a "patrols" - dummy units perplexing enemy. The CCs can't be divided - if forced to desitegrate they divide into the attached units.
Image
Ralph - please, give my the composite units!
http://www.tdg.nu/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1148781589
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golden delicious
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RE: Composite units

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Legun

I can't find the word "kewl" in my dictionary :(.

It's a corruption of "cool", very common online.
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*Lava*
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RE: Composite units

Post by *Lava* »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Legun

I can't find the word "kewl" in my dictionary :(.

It's a corruption of "cool", very common online.

Dudely!

Ray (alias Lava)
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Jeff Norton
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RE: Composite units

Post by Jeff Norton »

Bitch'n...[:D]
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ralphtricky
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RE: Composite units

Post by ralphtricky »

This thread is, like, far out dudes!
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Der Oberst
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RE: Composite units

Post by Der Oberst »

Word!



[:D]



Regards,

Der Oberst
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GreenDestiny
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RE: Composite units

Post by GreenDestiny »

groovy, man, groovy


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larryfulkerson
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Composite units

Post by larryfulkerson »

Peace out, homie.
Russia’s 41st Army COLLAPSED in Pokrovsk — 25,000 Soldiers KILLED After a RIDICULOUS Russian Assault
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Bloodybucket28th
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RE: Composite units

Post by Bloodybucket28th »

23 Skidoo!
Legun
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RE: Composite units

Post by Legun »

It's very nice to find as many new post in the thread - it looks like many people have something to say about the composite units [8|]. 
Ralph - please, give my the composite units!
http://www.tdg.nu/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1148781589
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Chuck2
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RE: Composite units

Post by Chuck2 »

I'd like the ability to add low proficiency truck columns to infantry battalions. This way these units can move fast up and down the road but when fighting you'll have to unattach the trucks.
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Bloodybucket28th
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RE: Composite units

Post by Bloodybucket28th »

Isn't there a problem with artillery in infantry units, regarding the infantry designation prohibiting firing at range?  Would this kind of problem exist with other force combinations that combining units might create? 
 
Would this present problems with scenario design, as the player could produce ahistorical units that thwart the designers intent?
 
It does look like an interesting option, but from a design standpoint, is it opening up a big can of worms?
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golden delicious
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RE: Composite units

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: TheBloodyBucket

Would this present problems with scenario design, as the player could produce ahistorical units that thwart the designers intent?

There'd have to be sharp limits on how composite units could be formed.
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*Lava*
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RE: Composite units

Post by *Lava* »

ORIGINAL: TheBloodyBucket

Would this present problems with scenario design, as the player could produce ahistorical units that thwart the designers intent?

Options.. options.. options!!!!

The way to go is to make it an option. Composite units on/off.

Why shouldn't someone at home do whatever he wants? I change stuff in scenarios all the time. Who cares?

On the other hand, the ability to have composite units broadens the variablity of scenario design exponentially and allows the player to determine what he wants his army to look like. "What ifs" abound....

Ray (alias Lava)
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RE: Composite units

Post by JAMiAM »

ORIGINAL: Lava
ORIGINAL: TheBloodyBucket

Would this present problems with scenario design, as the player could produce ahistorical units that thwart the designers intent?

Options.. options.. options!!!!

The way to go is to make it an option. Composite units on/off.

Why shouldn't someone at home do whatever he wants? I change stuff in scenarios all the time. Who cares?

On the other hand, the ability to have composite units broadens the variablity of scenario design exponentially and allows the player to determine what he wants his army to look like. "What ifs" abound....

Ray (alias Lava)

I don't have any problems with allowing options to users. However, a major rewrite to the code should produce major results for the effort in programming time, and testing. This is a feature request that adds nothing to scenarios not written to take advantage of it (all those written so far) and only limited utility to those that would be written for it, beyond what the engine already allows one to do. Yet, it would require a lot of programming, testing, and graphics changes to implement properly.

In short, all feature requests should be seen from the persepective of cost/benefit. It's a matter of resource management. We will generally prioritize our work toward fixing things in the following order:

1) Game breaking bugs, regardless of the work involved.
2) Minor bugs, depending on the amount of work involved, and whether they will be fixed in later feature/enhancement updates.
3) Minor enhancements that are easy to program and test.
4) Major enhancements, regardless of the work involved.
5) Minor enhancements, that are difficult to program and test.

I would argue that many of the issues that are in category 4 are the meat of the development and future evolution of the TOAW series. However, work in every one of the categories, when done improperly, can push more of a work load into categories 1 and 2. In other words, the faster we work, the more behind we get! Category three demonstrates our overall responsiveness to the community, provided the requests are within reason, and within the design intent of where we want the series to go. Category 5, is what we can work on, when everything else is caught up on.
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Chuck2
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RE: Composite units

Post by Chuck2 »

Oh, you're a wet blanket. We DEMAND composite units, NOW! [;)]
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