Treespider has agreed to my proposal for a ceasefire to allow me to perform a strategic withdrawal of my troops from the southern Chinese bases. He claims a disinterest in going for Chungking, so I'll maintain a ceasefire in all of China as long as he does the same.
I realize that this frees up Japanese troops to fight elsewhere, but I'll take my chances, because otherwise I'll lose tons of Chinese troops for no gain and those Japanese troops will still eventually fight elsewhere anyway.
In any event, I've been complaining all along that I didn't want to fight "War in China", so here's my chance to "put up or shut up". [;)]
Dave Baranyi
A Canuck in the Pacific - ADavidB vs Treespider
Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
RE: Chinese ceasefire...
well if you direct your LCUS to an empty hex two hexes away from the city in the right direction, it should work I guess....
Adieu Ô Dieu odieux... signé Adam
RE: Chinese ceasefire...
ORIGINAL: veji1
well if you direct your LCUS to an empty hex two hexes away from the city in the right direction, it should work I guess....
Unfortunately, no, that doesn't work with the current movement and zone-of-control rules. Once enemy troops come in contact with your troops, you cannot move out of contact except by setting an uncontested friendly base as your objective, no matter how many uncontested and empty hexes are nearby. The AI always calculates the "quickest route". When the unit that you want to move is on a rail line, the AI always considers the rail line as the "only" route because it is always "quicker".
In this case, Treespider has units two hexes away on the rail line to the south west. It doesn't matter that there are two unoccupied non-rail routes stretching uncontested to the northwest towards the objective base - the AI "sees" the Japanese troops that are two hexes away and freezes movement for my LCUs at 59 miles. Therefore, I cannot do a withdrawal despite having multiple open routes out of the hex - my troops will never move.
Apparently, it's not an easy job to fix this problem.
Thanks -
Dave Baranyi
-
Jim D Burns
- Posts: 4001
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:00 pm
- Location: Salida, CA.
RE: Chinese ceasefire...
If it's any consolation my opponent and I have undergone many cease fire agreements in China to work around issues like these. It’s the only way to make the China game remotely playable.
In fact I doubt I’d be willing to play an opponent who wasn’t amenable to brief pauses now and again to work through the headaches that develop in China on an almost constant basis due to game engine mechanics.
Most recently in my game I was evacuating the Southern rail line due to Japanese gains and as my large armies passed through Wuchow and the other southern base (can’t remember name) on their way northwest, huge amounts of supply were sucked in to the bases on the same turn they moved out of the bases. My opponent gracefully pulled back his pursuing units long enough for the supply to get sucked back into the northern bases.
Although I lost about 4k supplies just to attrition for the move in and then out of those bases, I doubt there'd be much of a game left (only about 30k supplies left in all of China at this point) had my opponent simply grabbed the bases and all those supplies the stupid engine threw in there due to a two turn pass-through move by my armies.
Jim
In fact I doubt I’d be willing to play an opponent who wasn’t amenable to brief pauses now and again to work through the headaches that develop in China on an almost constant basis due to game engine mechanics.
Most recently in my game I was evacuating the Southern rail line due to Japanese gains and as my large armies passed through Wuchow and the other southern base (can’t remember name) on their way northwest, huge amounts of supply were sucked in to the bases on the same turn they moved out of the bases. My opponent gracefully pulled back his pursuing units long enough for the supply to get sucked back into the northern bases.
Although I lost about 4k supplies just to attrition for the move in and then out of those bases, I doubt there'd be much of a game left (only about 30k supplies left in all of China at this point) had my opponent simply grabbed the bases and all those supplies the stupid engine threw in there due to a two turn pass-through move by my armies.
Jim
RE: Chinese ceasefire...
If it's any consolation my opponent and I have undergone many cease fire agreements in China to work around issues like these. It’s the only way to make the China game remotely playable.
It's really unfortunate, but it is the only way to go. I can well understand all the reasons why Japanese players want to attack in China, but the current land movement problems make it impossible to give sensible commands. Oh well, maybe someday it will be fixed.
Thanks -
Dave Baranyi
Ceasefire orders given...
March 30, 1942 -
So we agreed to a cease fire in China. In a somewhat realistic manner, since Treespider had already set his orders for the turn before receiving and accepting my final proposal, there were still some attacks in China from both sides, including another deliberate attack on Hengchow that failed again. But now that we've agreed I started my withdrawal from Kweilin and Wuchow this turn to accompany my stalled withdrawal from Hengchow. All of my troops at Hengchow are stuck at 59 miles, so hopefully once the Japanese troops pull back my troops will finally move.
I've also pulled back all my air units from the front and stopped all air raids, and I'm not moving any troops towards the Front, although I am pulling a few "blocker" units back now that they aren't needed for the Southern cities. I'm hoping that Treespider will consider a complete cessation to "hostilities" in China until and if the Devs ever fix the movement problem in some later revision. It's no fun for me playing in China with the "as is" condition because Treespider may as well be playing head-to-head against himself if I can't give orders to my own troops.
In other news, there was another deliberate attack on Manila that reduced the fortifications some more and further weakened the defenders. I expect Manila to fall to the next attack. Otherwise, things were pretty quiet most everywhere.
My major concern right now is to bolster the defenses of Eastern and Southeastern Australia. Things are coming along fairly well, but I really need more air support in the region. I'm hoping to be able to send a big air support unit out that way, but it will take quite some time to get it there safely.
I'd also like to start to shore up the defenses in the South Pacific, but I need several more weeks to receive and move more troops, and I'm not likely to get the time. So once the April naval upgrades are in place I'll have to move more naval forces into the region and be prepared to try to stop advances that threaten the bases that I would like to protect.
The big question will be - If Treespider does observe an extended ceasefire in China, where will his "excess" units go? The defense of China is coming along fairly well, but I'm nowhere near being in a position to stop a serious multi-division amphibious attack and won't be for a couple of months. I'm beginning to think that I should strip the Indo-Burmese border of its remaining infantry units, pull them back to Asansol for rebuilding, and spread them out to the key inland bases where they can block rail line blitzkriegs.
Dave Baranyi
So we agreed to a cease fire in China. In a somewhat realistic manner, since Treespider had already set his orders for the turn before receiving and accepting my final proposal, there were still some attacks in China from both sides, including another deliberate attack on Hengchow that failed again. But now that we've agreed I started my withdrawal from Kweilin and Wuchow this turn to accompany my stalled withdrawal from Hengchow. All of my troops at Hengchow are stuck at 59 miles, so hopefully once the Japanese troops pull back my troops will finally move.
I've also pulled back all my air units from the front and stopped all air raids, and I'm not moving any troops towards the Front, although I am pulling a few "blocker" units back now that they aren't needed for the Southern cities. I'm hoping that Treespider will consider a complete cessation to "hostilities" in China until and if the Devs ever fix the movement problem in some later revision. It's no fun for me playing in China with the "as is" condition because Treespider may as well be playing head-to-head against himself if I can't give orders to my own troops.
In other news, there was another deliberate attack on Manila that reduced the fortifications some more and further weakened the defenders. I expect Manila to fall to the next attack. Otherwise, things were pretty quiet most everywhere.
My major concern right now is to bolster the defenses of Eastern and Southeastern Australia. Things are coming along fairly well, but I really need more air support in the region. I'm hoping to be able to send a big air support unit out that way, but it will take quite some time to get it there safely.
I'd also like to start to shore up the defenses in the South Pacific, but I need several more weeks to receive and move more troops, and I'm not likely to get the time. So once the April naval upgrades are in place I'll have to move more naval forces into the region and be prepared to try to stop advances that threaten the bases that I would like to protect.
The big question will be - If Treespider does observe an extended ceasefire in China, where will his "excess" units go? The defense of China is coming along fairly well, but I'm nowhere near being in a position to stop a serious multi-division amphibious attack and won't be for a couple of months. I'm beginning to think that I should strip the Indo-Burmese border of its remaining infantry units, pull them back to Asansol for rebuilding, and spread them out to the key inland bases where they can block rail line blitzkriegs.
Dave Baranyi
-
niceguy2005
- Posts: 12522
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:53 pm
- Location: Super secret hidden base
RE: Ceasefire orders given...
Hi AdavidB, great AAR.
Any news on what's going on around Johnston/Palmyra? Are you expecting an attack?
I have found patrol aircraft to be unreliable spotters by themselves. As I am also in the early stages of the war in my game, I did find that subs make great pickets. If you are thinking an attack is immenent I would put at least 10 subs out to picket the area. YOu can tell a lot by what type of aircraft spot them and they are better if they actually encounter a TF at telling you what ships are there.
Any news on what's going on around Johnston/Palmyra? Are you expecting an attack?
I have found patrol aircraft to be unreliable spotters by themselves. As I am also in the early stages of the war in my game, I did find that subs make great pickets. If you are thinking an attack is immenent I would put at least 10 subs out to picket the area. YOu can tell a lot by what type of aircraft spot them and they are better if they actually encounter a TF at telling you what ships are there.
Artwork graciously provided by Dixie
RE: Ceasefire orders given...
ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
Hi AdavidB, great AAR.
Any news on what's going on around Johnston/Palmyra? Are you expecting an attack?
I have found patrol aircraft to be unreliable spotters by themselves. As I am also in the early stages of the war in my game, I did find that subs make great pickets. If you are thinking an attack is immenent I would put at least 10 subs out to picket the area. YOu can tell a lot by what type of aircraft spot them and they are better if they actually encounter a TF at telling you what ships are there.
Nothing much is going on in the Johnston/Palmyra area right now. I suspect that Treespider was checking things out just to see if I had "left the door open" a crack. He mustn't have been too happy to see all those 2E bombers swarming over his CS and knows that he might not be so lucky next time.
I agree with you regarding the US patrol planes. I generally get much better search results when I have both patrol planes and bombers on "search". I now have enough 2Es in the region that I've been able to put a squadron on each of Midway, Johnston, Palmyra and Christmas to enhance the search capabilties as well as add some "sting". Transport TFs don't like to move into areas that have anti-shipping bombers in action.
I do have a comprehensive submarine picket line out, but Treespider is avoiding it by crossing "no man's water" with his float planes stood down. And until my subs get radar later this year they won't be that good at detecting enemy TFs unless they are "run over".
Thanks again -
Dave Baranyi
Two Big Pieces of News...
March 31, 1942 -
Two BIG pieces of news this turn:
1 - Treespider offered, and I accepted, a two-year ground combat truce in China. I will pull back from Homan in addition to Hengchow, Kweilin, and Wuchow and neither of us will conduct any ground offenses for the next two years. I also "challenged him" to "avoid the temptation" to try to use China as a "cheapy" no-risk training ground for thousands of pilots, as some people do. Instead I suggested that he use the "macho" approach and train his pilots against "real" targets. We'll see what he does. In any event, I'm prepared to live with my part of the bargain.
2 - INTEL, that most Unworthy of all Services, has reported that the Japanese 5th Division is on its way to invade Derby. So Treespider isn't wasting any time going against Northern Oz. Oh well, it would have been better if bases like Derby were still malarial, but I'm not going to worry about it. I'm just going to vanish along my supply lines. BTW - I would much rather see Japanese divisions in Northern Oz than in the South Seas.
In other news, Fergusson Island was occupied automatically, saving Treespider the risk of another Fast Transport "misadventure". Japanese troops also landed at Guiuan Island.
Treespider sent Zero sweeps against Wyndham again. He tends to do this as a bit of "misdirection" I believe. Then a huge crowd of Oscars escorted some Sallys that tried to bomb some of the supply ships in Darwin Harbor. For the first time in the game that I remember, my CAP, although only Wirraways, actually shot down some of the escorts and disrupted the attack.
Treespider is trying too many things at once and is forgetting things. So there was still an attack south of Homan, and one Japanese unit tried a deliberate attack at Manila instead of resting like the others. I'm not having that problem in this game because I'm trying so little that it's almost impossible to forget the few things that are going on. [>:] [;)]
BTW - if you are wondering when I intend to do something about the Japanese advances, right now mid-1943 looks good to me, unless Treespider does something particularly dumb that gives me a big break.
And finally, below is the INTEL screen for April 1. All things considered, it's not looking too bad, particularly in terms of relative air losses and naval losses. They mean that parity is coming closer all the time.
Dave Baranyi
Two BIG pieces of news this turn:
1 - Treespider offered, and I accepted, a two-year ground combat truce in China. I will pull back from Homan in addition to Hengchow, Kweilin, and Wuchow and neither of us will conduct any ground offenses for the next two years. I also "challenged him" to "avoid the temptation" to try to use China as a "cheapy" no-risk training ground for thousands of pilots, as some people do. Instead I suggested that he use the "macho" approach and train his pilots against "real" targets. We'll see what he does. In any event, I'm prepared to live with my part of the bargain.
2 - INTEL, that most Unworthy of all Services, has reported that the Japanese 5th Division is on its way to invade Derby. So Treespider isn't wasting any time going against Northern Oz. Oh well, it would have been better if bases like Derby were still malarial, but I'm not going to worry about it. I'm just going to vanish along my supply lines. BTW - I would much rather see Japanese divisions in Northern Oz than in the South Seas.
In other news, Fergusson Island was occupied automatically, saving Treespider the risk of another Fast Transport "misadventure". Japanese troops also landed at Guiuan Island.
Treespider sent Zero sweeps against Wyndham again. He tends to do this as a bit of "misdirection" I believe. Then a huge crowd of Oscars escorted some Sallys that tried to bomb some of the supply ships in Darwin Harbor. For the first time in the game that I remember, my CAP, although only Wirraways, actually shot down some of the escorts and disrupted the attack.
Treespider is trying too many things at once and is forgetting things. So there was still an attack south of Homan, and one Japanese unit tried a deliberate attack at Manila instead of resting like the others. I'm not having that problem in this game because I'm trying so little that it's almost impossible to forget the few things that are going on. [>:] [;)]
BTW - if you are wondering when I intend to do something about the Japanese advances, right now mid-1943 looks good to me, unless Treespider does something particularly dumb that gives me a big break.
And finally, below is the INTEL screen for April 1. All things considered, it's not looking too bad, particularly in terms of relative air losses and naval losses. They mean that parity is coming closer all the time.
Dave Baranyi
- Attachments
-
- April1IntelScreen.jpg (106.78 KiB) Viewed 430 times
LCU Movement "Fun & Games"...
April 1, 1942 -
As I wrote to Treespider, it's a very good thing that we decided on a two-year ceasefire, because it may well take a year or more to get my idiotic troops out of Hengchow. Despite the removal of the Japanese besiegers, my troops in Hengchow are still stuck at 59 miles. All of my other troops are moving quite happily. I've asked Treespider to either move his troops back from Kweilin a couple of hexes, or move his troops off of the road from Changsha to Chungking. This only emphasizes how badly the movement rules are implemented for China. Next game I start I may abandon Hengchow right from the first turn, then let the Japanese get stuck there. [:D] [;)]
The action is already picking up in Northern Oz. Japanese and Australian LBA traded tit-for-tat naval attacks in Lautem and Darwin. Australian planes hit an AG and an AK in Lautem, and Sallys hit a couple of AKs in Darwin Harbor. Once again I was shaking my head at the performance of the 2E bombers versus CAP. My Hudsons blew by the Zeros at Lautem and scored five bomb hits. Then two small, unescorted groups of Sallys fought past nearly equal numbers of Wirraways to hit an AK in each pass. At one time 2E bombers would break off fairly quickly in the face of CAP, nowadays they fight through it as if they were 4E bombers. I still feel that "Mike the Dev" overshot the mark a bit when he re-jigged the performance of 2E bombers against fighters back in rev 1.50.
My 2E bombers will get more opportunities to show their worth next turn as a TF is heading towards Perth. I'm betting that it is a bombardment TF rather than an invasion TF. I have four subs headed into the incoming path, and I've moved all the planes out of Perth and have them ready in Broom and Wyndham to try to hit the TF afterwards. Now, as long as we don't suddenly get torrential rains across the entire north coast of Oz I ought to do okay.
In other news, Malakula Island was occupied and Guiuan was captured. Manila was bombed from the air and bombarded from the ground. Brit MSWs found yet more mines in the channel between Ceylon and the mainland - Treespider's subs have certainly been busy in that region. And in the equatorial reaches of the South Pacific, a Japanese TF, either an air combat or a CS spy TF, was spotted sailing towards the Solomons.
My April 1 ship upgrades all went well with the exception of Lexington which remains at sysdam 7 and so will not upgrade.
Dave Baranyi
As I wrote to Treespider, it's a very good thing that we decided on a two-year ceasefire, because it may well take a year or more to get my idiotic troops out of Hengchow. Despite the removal of the Japanese besiegers, my troops in Hengchow are still stuck at 59 miles. All of my other troops are moving quite happily. I've asked Treespider to either move his troops back from Kweilin a couple of hexes, or move his troops off of the road from Changsha to Chungking. This only emphasizes how badly the movement rules are implemented for China. Next game I start I may abandon Hengchow right from the first turn, then let the Japanese get stuck there. [:D] [;)]
The action is already picking up in Northern Oz. Japanese and Australian LBA traded tit-for-tat naval attacks in Lautem and Darwin. Australian planes hit an AG and an AK in Lautem, and Sallys hit a couple of AKs in Darwin Harbor. Once again I was shaking my head at the performance of the 2E bombers versus CAP. My Hudsons blew by the Zeros at Lautem and scored five bomb hits. Then two small, unescorted groups of Sallys fought past nearly equal numbers of Wirraways to hit an AK in each pass. At one time 2E bombers would break off fairly quickly in the face of CAP, nowadays they fight through it as if they were 4E bombers. I still feel that "Mike the Dev" overshot the mark a bit when he re-jigged the performance of 2E bombers against fighters back in rev 1.50.
My 2E bombers will get more opportunities to show their worth next turn as a TF is heading towards Perth. I'm betting that it is a bombardment TF rather than an invasion TF. I have four subs headed into the incoming path, and I've moved all the planes out of Perth and have them ready in Broom and Wyndham to try to hit the TF afterwards. Now, as long as we don't suddenly get torrential rains across the entire north coast of Oz I ought to do okay.
In other news, Malakula Island was occupied and Guiuan was captured. Manila was bombed from the air and bombarded from the ground. Brit MSWs found yet more mines in the channel between Ceylon and the mainland - Treespider's subs have certainly been busy in that region. And in the equatorial reaches of the South Pacific, a Japanese TF, either an air combat or a CS spy TF, was spotted sailing towards the Solomons.
My April 1 ship upgrades all went well with the exception of Lexington which remains at sysdam 7 and so will not upgrade.
Dave Baranyi
The IJN Strikes! x3!!!
April 2, 1942 -
This turn started out with a "bang" as S-39 sank an AK to the north of Lautem, but then everything Allied started to follow that ship down to the bottom as Treespider launched simultaneous naval attacks on Darwin, Wyndham and Derby. A BB-lead TF bombarded Derby. Another BB-lead TF attacked and sank the three AKs in Wyndham Harbor and then bombarded the base. A CL-lead TF attacked and sank the three AKs in Darwin Harbor, then during the daylight a big air attack by Nells and Bettys hit the port at Darwin and another bombardment TF with two BBs followed with a daylight bombardment of the base. [X(] [X(] [X(]
As usually happens, all four Allied bases in Northern Australia were socked in by bad weather, so no planes flew against the attacking ships; not even against the daylight bombardment TF which stayed at Darwin. The TFs bombarding Derby and Wyndham consisted solely of BBs and CAs, with their escorts not bombarding, so the CD guns at those bases didn't fire back. There was a CL with the bombardment TF that attacked Darwin, but although the CD guns there did fire back, they didn't land any hits.
Things could have been worse. Those AKs were finishing up with unloading supplies, so little was lost. I also expected to lose those ships to LBA attacks when I originally sent them out, so this didn't make any difference. And my strategy of having the AKs in single-ship TFs meant that the Japanese combat TFs used more ammo than they would have otherwise, which means that they will have to go back to reload ammo. I also only had second line planes at the bases - leftover Dutch patrol planes, Wirraways and Hudsons - so my air losses were quite light; only 10 planes on the ground total from the entire attack.
There is no sign of invasion TFs to go along with the INTEL report from the previous turn, but I have no doubt that they will come. The only question will be - will Treespider also attempt three simultaneous invasions to match his simultaneous bombardment attacks, or stick to a landing at Derby?
For those of you who are wondering why I'm not defending the Northern Australian bases more aggressively, here is a look at my logic. First off, remember that this is early April 1942 and I still don't have much in the way of forces for defence. Also, those four bases aren't very close together and thus don't provide mutual support. So, for example, Beauforts, with their attack range of 5, won't cover from Darwin to Wyndham and so on. Hudsons are fine against soft targets such as transport ships, but they will waste their bombs against capital ships, so it's probably just as well that they didn't fly this time.
Why not set my two B-17 groups up in Darwin along with some P-40s so that I can attack the Japanese staging bases such as Lautem? Well, that BB-attack on Darwin should have answered that clearly. Also, Treespider has four Level 4 air bases within range of Darwin, and plenty of other players have demonstrated quite effectively how planes from four bases can close one base with ease. (Also, always remember Advanced Weather, and always assume the worst. You will be rarely disappointed.)
What about Allied BBs? Sure, the Brits have a handful of BBs and cruisers in India, and it is certainly possible to send them to Oz. But then, what is left to defend India? India is a lot more valuable to me than Northern Oz. And it's so easy for a Japanese player to base several hundred Nells and Bettys in those four nearby DEI bases that the thought of having the RN sitting in the Northern Oz ports, even with some P-40s for CAP, just leaves me cold. Why are those RN BBs any safer in India, you may ask? Well, the situation is reversed in India; there the Allied player has plenty of air bases, including ones that are inland and safe from naval bombardments, and an attacking Japanese player must try to find that first "foothold". It's almost a mirror of the Northern Australian situation.
Okay, what about US forces. Well, yes, it might have been nice to have a couple of US carriers in Broom that could chase out against those IJN surface ships, but do you really suppose that Treespider is operating this plan without at least a couple of CVs sitting around 10 hexes away? And anyway, once again remember those four Level 4 bases, the 70 or more Bettys and Nells that I know about in those bases, and the current ability in this game for 2E LBA on naval attack in this game to go past CAP like "grass through a goose".
And yes, if I didn’t about losses of ships and planes I could probably make some sort of "Valiant Stand" at one of those bases, particularly Darwin, but why would I? I don't want to lose forces at this stage; I want to cause my opponent to lose forces. Right now the Japanese forces are still too strong and mine still too weak to make a stand at Northern Oz that won't end up a very costly deal for me. Why is Treespider attacking Northern Oz? It's because his supply lines are short and he can easily control the air from multiple bases; while my supply lines are very long and I am stuck with trying to defend isolated bases. Why isn't he attacking India instead? Because in India my supply lines are short and I can easily control the air from multiple bases; while his supply lines will be long and he will be stuck with trying to defend an isolated attack.
Okay, that's enough blathering on my part. There was other big news this turn. First off, Manila finally fell. All things considered, the fact that it lasted until April 2 isn't bad in my books. Next, my "Wrong Way Corrigan" Chinese troops in Hengchow finally moved out of the base and are on their way up north. Treespider just needs to be patient in regards to a couple of stragglers that are slowly moving overland, and the DMZ will be nicely formed for the next couple of game-years. It will be good to ignore China. You realize, of course, that this relieves me of the need to use bombers and transports to carry supply to China, and any need to send valuable SEAC planes to fight in China. So I'm very, very happy with this deal! [:D] Even if Treespider has no intentions of attacking India, this will aid me in setting up a stronger counterattack in the future.
And in minor news, my minesweepers continue to get practice around Ceylon, which is one of the things that convinces me that Treespider hasn't given up yet on any ideas of attempting "adventures" in India. And for the first time in a long, long while a Japanese Glen-equipped sub has appeared in the Eastern Pacific.
Dave Baranyi
This turn started out with a "bang" as S-39 sank an AK to the north of Lautem, but then everything Allied started to follow that ship down to the bottom as Treespider launched simultaneous naval attacks on Darwin, Wyndham and Derby. A BB-lead TF bombarded Derby. Another BB-lead TF attacked and sank the three AKs in Wyndham Harbor and then bombarded the base. A CL-lead TF attacked and sank the three AKs in Darwin Harbor, then during the daylight a big air attack by Nells and Bettys hit the port at Darwin and another bombardment TF with two BBs followed with a daylight bombardment of the base. [X(] [X(] [X(]
As usually happens, all four Allied bases in Northern Australia were socked in by bad weather, so no planes flew against the attacking ships; not even against the daylight bombardment TF which stayed at Darwin. The TFs bombarding Derby and Wyndham consisted solely of BBs and CAs, with their escorts not bombarding, so the CD guns at those bases didn't fire back. There was a CL with the bombardment TF that attacked Darwin, but although the CD guns there did fire back, they didn't land any hits.
Things could have been worse. Those AKs were finishing up with unloading supplies, so little was lost. I also expected to lose those ships to LBA attacks when I originally sent them out, so this didn't make any difference. And my strategy of having the AKs in single-ship TFs meant that the Japanese combat TFs used more ammo than they would have otherwise, which means that they will have to go back to reload ammo. I also only had second line planes at the bases - leftover Dutch patrol planes, Wirraways and Hudsons - so my air losses were quite light; only 10 planes on the ground total from the entire attack.
There is no sign of invasion TFs to go along with the INTEL report from the previous turn, but I have no doubt that they will come. The only question will be - will Treespider also attempt three simultaneous invasions to match his simultaneous bombardment attacks, or stick to a landing at Derby?
For those of you who are wondering why I'm not defending the Northern Australian bases more aggressively, here is a look at my logic. First off, remember that this is early April 1942 and I still don't have much in the way of forces for defence. Also, those four bases aren't very close together and thus don't provide mutual support. So, for example, Beauforts, with their attack range of 5, won't cover from Darwin to Wyndham and so on. Hudsons are fine against soft targets such as transport ships, but they will waste their bombs against capital ships, so it's probably just as well that they didn't fly this time.
Why not set my two B-17 groups up in Darwin along with some P-40s so that I can attack the Japanese staging bases such as Lautem? Well, that BB-attack on Darwin should have answered that clearly. Also, Treespider has four Level 4 air bases within range of Darwin, and plenty of other players have demonstrated quite effectively how planes from four bases can close one base with ease. (Also, always remember Advanced Weather, and always assume the worst. You will be rarely disappointed.)
What about Allied BBs? Sure, the Brits have a handful of BBs and cruisers in India, and it is certainly possible to send them to Oz. But then, what is left to defend India? India is a lot more valuable to me than Northern Oz. And it's so easy for a Japanese player to base several hundred Nells and Bettys in those four nearby DEI bases that the thought of having the RN sitting in the Northern Oz ports, even with some P-40s for CAP, just leaves me cold. Why are those RN BBs any safer in India, you may ask? Well, the situation is reversed in India; there the Allied player has plenty of air bases, including ones that are inland and safe from naval bombardments, and an attacking Japanese player must try to find that first "foothold". It's almost a mirror of the Northern Australian situation.
Okay, what about US forces. Well, yes, it might have been nice to have a couple of US carriers in Broom that could chase out against those IJN surface ships, but do you really suppose that Treespider is operating this plan without at least a couple of CVs sitting around 10 hexes away? And anyway, once again remember those four Level 4 bases, the 70 or more Bettys and Nells that I know about in those bases, and the current ability in this game for 2E LBA on naval attack in this game to go past CAP like "grass through a goose".
And yes, if I didn’t about losses of ships and planes I could probably make some sort of "Valiant Stand" at one of those bases, particularly Darwin, but why would I? I don't want to lose forces at this stage; I want to cause my opponent to lose forces. Right now the Japanese forces are still too strong and mine still too weak to make a stand at Northern Oz that won't end up a very costly deal for me. Why is Treespider attacking Northern Oz? It's because his supply lines are short and he can easily control the air from multiple bases; while my supply lines are very long and I am stuck with trying to defend isolated bases. Why isn't he attacking India instead? Because in India my supply lines are short and I can easily control the air from multiple bases; while his supply lines will be long and he will be stuck with trying to defend an isolated attack.
Okay, that's enough blathering on my part. There was other big news this turn. First off, Manila finally fell. All things considered, the fact that it lasted until April 2 isn't bad in my books. Next, my "Wrong Way Corrigan" Chinese troops in Hengchow finally moved out of the base and are on their way up north. Treespider just needs to be patient in regards to a couple of stragglers that are slowly moving overland, and the DMZ will be nicely formed for the next couple of game-years. It will be good to ignore China. You realize, of course, that this relieves me of the need to use bombers and transports to carry supply to China, and any need to send valuable SEAC planes to fight in China. So I'm very, very happy with this deal! [:D] Even if Treespider has no intentions of attacking India, this will aid me in setting up a stronger counterattack in the future.
And in minor news, my minesweepers continue to get practice around Ceylon, which is one of the things that convinces me that Treespider hasn't given up yet on any ideas of attempting "adventures" in India. And for the first time in a long, long while a Japanese Glen-equipped sub has appeared in the Eastern Pacific.
Dave Baranyi
-
ny59giants
- Posts: 9902
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:02 pm
RE: The IJN Strikes! x3!!!
For the Japanese, the use of northern Oz is to act as a buffer from masses of heavy bombers taking out all the resource/oil centers within reach. For the Allies, it removes the eventual bases for use for those heavies and as a possible invasion step off point through the DEI. But nothing that cannot be retaken later in '43 or so. [:D]
[center]
[/center]
[/center]RE: The IJN Strikes! x3!!!
ORIGINAL: ny59giants
For the Japanese, the use of northern Oz is to act as a buffer from masses of heavy bombers taking out all the resource/oil centers within reach. For the Allies, it removes the eventual bases for use for those heavies and as a possible invasion step off point through the DEI. But nothing that cannot be retaken later in '43 or so. [:D]
True, but I'm not certain that the resource/oil bombing concept is still useful as a method for winning the game any longer. Certainly, in the earliest versions of WitP it was a good approach, but things have changed a lot in the last several revs. And planes used to bomb resources/oil in 1942 can be used for a lot more important things, such as stopping enemy advances where you want them to be stopped.
I'm planning to wait until late 1943 or early 1944 before I start to worry about a campaign against resources/oil - which is pretty much what happened historically. Trying to do it too early in the Game is a great way to lose too many planes for too little effect.
The important part of your statement is the one about taking back the bases. Points lost via base loss can be recovered. Points lost to lost troops, ships and planes can't be recovered, and those losses eventually make the recovery of the lost bases more difficult. My goal is to establish the conditions in which the Allied advance in 1943 is as overwhelming and unstoppable as all the Japanese Fanboys fear in their dreams. [:D] [;)]
Thanks -
Dave Baranyi
-
ny59giants
- Posts: 9902
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:02 pm
RE: The IJN Strikes! x3!!!
In your research, what does "advanced weather" do besides ground your Air Force??
I know it seems to cover large areas of the map for prolonged time. Is it close to being realistic or does it give bad waether over too much area at once?
I know it seems to cover large areas of the map for prolonged time. Is it close to being realistic or does it give bad waether over too much area at once?
[center][/center]
[/center]RE: The IJN Strikes! x3!!!
ORIGINAL: ny59giants
In your research, what does "advanced weather" do besides ground your Air Force??
I know it seems to cover large areas of the map for prolonged time. Is it close to being realistic or does it give bad waether over too much area at once?
"Advanced Weather" is the name of the S/W routine that attempts to generate more "realistic" weather in a somewhat random manner. The idea is that you will get storm systems in which to hide, weather that will disrupt some of your plans and so on. In general, its a good idea, but it doesn't work well.
For some reason, "Advanced Weather" seems to quickly slip into a pattern that gives mainly bad weather over large portions of the map for long periods of time. One would expect that if the routine were truly "random" that there would be times when you get mainly good weather everywhere, and that the weather would change around fairly regularly. But that doesn't happen after the first game-month or so.
"Bad weather", usually thunderstorms, causes planes to receive operational damage, causes air missions to be scrubbed, and can cause system damage to ships. One of the "design features" of the "bad" weather is that you can have your air base totally socked-in so that none of your planes can fly any missions, including CAP. But a nearby enemy base may not have the same weather and so it's planes will fly and for some reason can still attack your base, even though your planes can't fly to stop them. It doesn't make any sense, but it happens reasonably frequently.
The other bad thing about the "lock-in" of bad weather is that regions of the map that rarely or never have monsoon-type weather receive it quite frequently. So while continuous thunderstorms for months in a row can possibly be "rationalized away" for Southeast Asia, it is very hard to consider that "realistic" for Southern California or central Australia.
Unfortunately, improving "Advanced Weather" does not appear to be a priority.
Thanks -
Dave Baranyi
Northern Oz Under Attack...
April 3, 1942 -
Well, last turn's attacks on Northern Australia weren't just a raid; the BBs have stuck around, paratroops were dropped on Derby, and an invasion TF, likely with the 5th Division on board, is on its way toward Derby. Imperial Japan is on the move again.
Today was different from the previous day because the weather cleared up over the Northern Australia bases and my Australian Hudsons made a number of attacks on the Japanese TFs. Unfortunately, most of their attacks were against the Japanese combat TFs and thus flak and armor thwarted the brave efforts of the Aussies. However, one Hudson flight did find a Japanese DD that had made the mistake of being on its own and hit the ship nicely. BTW - if you are wondering why I haven't brought any Beauforts in with their torpedoes, it's because the four northern bases are too far apart and the Beauforts would be attacking with bombs anyway.
Once again the CD guns at Darwin were silent. I'd like to figure out why so that I might correct things for the next time if I am doing something wrong. But whatever isn't working isn't obvious. My subs in the region have also lost their "touch". These are all veterans of the DEI campaign and they all made kills there. But for some unknown reason they aren't doing anything so far in this battle.
What is ironic is that Saury, which is in the Philippines hunting easy prey, found targets twice but drew blanks, likely due to the bad US torpedoes. The Dutch on the other hand, despite their good torpedoes, seem to have lost their ability to find ships even when they are in the same hex with multiple TFs.
Nells and Bettys came in from Kendari in large numbers to hit the port at Darwin again. I wonder if they are "suppressing" the CD guns in some manner. They certainly aren't doing much damage - 1 damage point this turn after 1 damage point last turn - mainly because they are flying at 25000 feet.
The Tabbys aren't fairing as well because they are flying in much lower to drop their paratroops over Derby. Eleven Tabbys were damaged by flak, and I don't even have a dedicated AA unit in Derby.
Elsewhere things were totally quiet. My troops continue to pull back unmolested in China. I've spread my Chinese planes around and have set most of the fighters back on CAP, despite the universal thunderstorms. Treespider did emphasize that this was a Ground Combat Cease Fire and I don't want to be caught on the ground in case he decides to stick to the "letter" of our agreement instead of the spirit.
I'm busy moving forces around in all of my main areas of operations. I'm sending a USN Base Force to French Frigate Shoals to start building a base there. I like to build up FFS - it gives me a stepping stone to send fighters to and from Midway, and gives another base for Patrol planes. And given the time and sufficient Seabees, it can be built up to a Level 4 airfield and then becomes useful for hosting a 2E squadron for patrol and naval attack.
I am starting to send SWPAC units towards the Southwest. I'm not yet sure if I'll send them all the way to Oz or let them off somewhere in between. That depends a lot on how quickly Treespider becomes more aggressive in the South Pacific. Regardless, I'm not yet willing to reduce my buildup in the Hawaiian Islands.
Dave Baranyi
Well, last turn's attacks on Northern Australia weren't just a raid; the BBs have stuck around, paratroops were dropped on Derby, and an invasion TF, likely with the 5th Division on board, is on its way toward Derby. Imperial Japan is on the move again.
Today was different from the previous day because the weather cleared up over the Northern Australia bases and my Australian Hudsons made a number of attacks on the Japanese TFs. Unfortunately, most of their attacks were against the Japanese combat TFs and thus flak and armor thwarted the brave efforts of the Aussies. However, one Hudson flight did find a Japanese DD that had made the mistake of being on its own and hit the ship nicely. BTW - if you are wondering why I haven't brought any Beauforts in with their torpedoes, it's because the four northern bases are too far apart and the Beauforts would be attacking with bombs anyway.
Once again the CD guns at Darwin were silent. I'd like to figure out why so that I might correct things for the next time if I am doing something wrong. But whatever isn't working isn't obvious. My subs in the region have also lost their "touch". These are all veterans of the DEI campaign and they all made kills there. But for some unknown reason they aren't doing anything so far in this battle.
What is ironic is that Saury, which is in the Philippines hunting easy prey, found targets twice but drew blanks, likely due to the bad US torpedoes. The Dutch on the other hand, despite their good torpedoes, seem to have lost their ability to find ships even when they are in the same hex with multiple TFs.
Nells and Bettys came in from Kendari in large numbers to hit the port at Darwin again. I wonder if they are "suppressing" the CD guns in some manner. They certainly aren't doing much damage - 1 damage point this turn after 1 damage point last turn - mainly because they are flying at 25000 feet.
The Tabbys aren't fairing as well because they are flying in much lower to drop their paratroops over Derby. Eleven Tabbys were damaged by flak, and I don't even have a dedicated AA unit in Derby.
Elsewhere things were totally quiet. My troops continue to pull back unmolested in China. I've spread my Chinese planes around and have set most of the fighters back on CAP, despite the universal thunderstorms. Treespider did emphasize that this was a Ground Combat Cease Fire and I don't want to be caught on the ground in case he decides to stick to the "letter" of our agreement instead of the spirit.
I'm busy moving forces around in all of my main areas of operations. I'm sending a USN Base Force to French Frigate Shoals to start building a base there. I like to build up FFS - it gives me a stepping stone to send fighters to and from Midway, and gives another base for Patrol planes. And given the time and sufficient Seabees, it can be built up to a Level 4 airfield and then becomes useful for hosting a 2E squadron for patrol and naval attack.
I am starting to send SWPAC units towards the Southwest. I'm not yet sure if I'll send them all the way to Oz or let them off somewhere in between. That depends a lot on how quickly Treespider becomes more aggressive in the South Pacific. Regardless, I'm not yet willing to reduce my buildup in the Hawaiian Islands.
Dave Baranyi
-
jwilkerson
- Posts: 8260
- Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 4:02 am
- Location: Kansas
- Contact:
RE: Northern Oz Under Attack...
mainly because they are flying at 25000 feet
What .. does TREE think he is playin' Nik Mod !?
[:D]
WITP Admiral's Edition - Project Lead
War In Spain - Project Lead
War In Spain - Project Lead
RE: Northern Oz Under Attack...
ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
mainly because they are flying at 25000 feet
What .. does TREE think he is playin' Nik Mod !?
[:D]
He knows that I've only got Wirraways there, so he's at their upper limit. But I'll take that all day... [8D]
In the meanwhile, far to the south, I've almost rebuilt the 24th FG "full-up" with P-40Es, and I've still got well over 100 "Throwaways" in reserve, so I'll go with the current situation. [;)]
Dave Baranyi
-
ny59giants
- Posts: 9902
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:02 pm
RE: The IJN Strikes! x3!!!
I wonder if the Advanced Weather has some of the modifiers that some of my land combat games had in Europe. Once it becomes "bad" it adds a number to the next die roll, so it has a higher chance of remaining bad once it gets there. More like loaded dice. [:-]
[center][/center]
[/center]RE: The IJN Strikes! x3!!!
ORIGINAL: ny59giants
I wonder if the Advanced Weather has some of the modifiers that some of my land combat games had in Europe. Once it becomes "bad" it adds a number to the next die roll, so it has a higher chance of remaining bad once it gets there. More like loaded dice. [:-]
That's what most folks are speculating.
Thanks -
Dave Baranyi