What is considered gamey

[pauk]

In general, there is nothing wrong with sub commandos - but the problem with troops dropped by submarine is that you can see ACTUAL defence of certain base - all units, their strentgh and number... similar situation is with CVs and picket ships - although it exists in RL game engine doesn't support that - despite what Amiral said (which is generally true) that only one or two airgroups will attack those picket ships. But, all fighter groups will escort these groups to the targets (from my experience). So the outcome is similar...

Wouldn't be against intentional picket ships and sub commandos action that there are some limitations. Example - subs commandos landed on the atoll but no combat screen and precise CR text is activated. Or, CV airgroups attacking enemy ships in limited numbers (lets say one group for one, two or three enemy ships) and their designation (VF-2, C-II) is not visible to the enemy...

So, IMHO, pickets and sub commando actions is great exploit - because they are cheating game mechanics and allowing the side which uses such tactic precise intel - which was never be possible in RL....

[dtravel]

Okay, I can understand not liking the "perfect intel" aspect.  I thought the objection was using them to capture undefended or very lightly defended locations.

[mdiehl]

"Hmm.. three week old deer meat that hasn't been cured came to mind"
 
According to some archaeologists Pleistocene hunters in the US used to store mammoth meat for months on end under water where the chill kept them cool but not frozen solid. My err understanding is that the consistency of meat stored in that way is thought to have been something like a cross between pudding and fudge.

[SGT Swanson]

I define "gamey" as:  Taking advantage of the limitations of the game's engine.  To me, making a Uber-PT TF is NOT gamey, but a tactic.  Having a sh!t load of 4E bomber squadrons (Allies), because you play with PDUs ON is gamey (takes advantage of the engine).
 
In a game I'm playing the allies have moved their B-17s from PI to Sing.  A tactic to me.  It makes it harder for the Japs, but if Mac or Nimitz didn't think of it durring the war, that's not my problem.

[esteban]

[/quote]

This has been gnawing away at the back of my mind. Isn't this basically what Marine Raiders did at Makin Atoll in August 1942 when they were landed by the subs Nautilus and Argonaut? They wiped out the (admitidly tiny) Japanese garrison and had control of the island. (Not sure if they even knew it though.)

[/quote]

But you kind of proved my point here. Nobody ever "took" even a lightly garrisoned island with submarine raiding parties. Between the "perfect intelligence" angle, the ability to put together a fleet of submarines and basically land a small regiment (with artillery!) via sub, and the ability to "flip" ungarrisoned enemy bases deep in their rear areas (right now if we didn't have our house rule in place, my oppenent could recapture 3/4 of the phillipines with about 15 subs and a marine raider battalion), the use of sub-based invasions is just ripe for abuse.

[Andy Mac]

Picket/Patrol ships I am one of the folk that send out PC's, DD's, larger MSW's even obselete CL's basically anything with any endurance I can to provide a picket line for major bases and heavily travelled routes and then spend a lot of time maintaining it the sole function of these ships is early warning typically I use them in areas where there is a lot of sea with no land bases that are critical convoy routes or are close to major fleet bases.

So Nor Pacific is patrolled heavily (especially after PH and if I lose sight of KB for any length of time) as is south of Columbo and S of Sydney these are major repair shipyard often with lots of cripples and I protect them accordingly.

IMO if as either side you really want to launch a sneak attack then you set everything to range 0 or 1 until you are in sprint range of your target to minimise detection. Whether it is 1 plane or 100 I go in high alert the moment I spot any carrier borne aircraft somewhere it shouldnt be. People lying in wait in ambush want it both ways they want surprise and all air units on max range search/strike ready to pounce at max range if a juicy target arrives but the trade off is a searching plane is spotted by what its looking for.

I put warships in harms way in order to give me warning not when they are sunk although they face that risk but when they spot any aircraft and I do not consider it gamey I find it extremely gamey when Japanese carriers hang about in the vicinity of PH after the day 1 strike for days on end just because the mechanics give them the fuel to do so when in reality they were running on fumes at this point.

There are always issues that can be classed as gamey for one side or the other as someone said above gamey is different to each person. I dont tend to get into massive debates of this type but I make an exception in this case.

Andy

[mogami]

Hi, If you don't garrison a base why worry over how the enemy retakes it? Kind of gamey to "garrision" the pacific via a house rule that prevent the enemy from anything other then a major invasion.  If you want a base garrison it enough so submarine borne troops can't take it and then you don't need a hosue rule.

[pauk]

hi, did you count all bases on the map and number of units available?

It is impossible to guard all bases.

[BrucePowers]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Picket/Patrol ships I am one of the folk that send out PC's, DD's, larger MSW's even obselete CL's basically anything with any endurance I can to provide a picket line for major bases and heavily travelled routes and then spend a lot of time maintaining it the sole function of these ships is early warning typically I use them in areas where there is a lot of sea with no land bases that are critical convoy routes or are close to major fleet bases.

So Nor Pacific is patrolled heavily (especially after PH and if I lose sight of KB for any length of time) as is south of Columbo and S of Sydney these are major repair shipyard often with lots of cripples and I protect them accordingly.

IMO if as either side you really want to launch a sneak attack then you set everything to range 0 or 1 until you are in sprint range of your target to minimise detection. Whether it is 1 plane or 100 I go in high alert the moment I spot any carrier borne aircraft somewhere it shouldnt be. People lying in wait in ambush want it both ways they want surprise and all air units on max range search/strike ready to pounce at max range if a juicy target arrives but the trade off is a searching plane is spotted by what its looking for.

I put warships in harms way in order to give me warning not when they are sunk although they face that risk but when they spot any aircraft and I do not consider it gamey I find it extremely gamey when Japanese carriers hang about in the vicinity of PH after the day 1 strike for days on end just because the mechanics give them the fuel to do so when in reality they were running on fumes at this point.

There are always issues that can be classed as gamey for one side or the other as someone said above gamey is different to each person. I dont tend to get into massive debates of this type but I make an exception in this case.

Andy

Andy:
I do not think using ships as pickets is gamey. We developed radar pickets to deal with Kamikazes. Several of those radar pickets got creamed. The USN knew it would happen but need was great. What you are doing is the same.

Bruce

[jwxspoon]

It appears to me that gamy is as follows:
 
When I am Allied:  It is gamy for me to do anything in any way that impedes the 'historical' Japanese rate of advance.  It is specifically gamy for me to move my troops around in DEI to create strongpoints, or to fly my surviving planes out of the PI and into the DEI for use supporting Singapore or Kuching.   It is quite gamy if I kill a bunch of unescorted Jap bombers at Singapore.  It appears that it is gamy if I downgrade some B17's from PI that I moved into DEI/Malaya into LB-30's and then wait a few days for enough of them to be repaired that i can mount a 3 plane raid with them (an opponent immediately quit after that one).  It is evidently NOT gamy for the same opponent to strike Pearl Harbor multiple times at the beginning of the game, refuel and then cruise around the south pacific at leisure (note - no complaints on my part).  It is gamy if I take a week and a dozen operational losses by transferring 3 squadrons of B17's to the SE Asia command and fly them through Pearl Harbor, Palmyra, Suva, Brisbane, Darwin, Singkawang and eventually land at Singapore.  I am a gamy bastard because 'Historically' these B17's weren't used there.  I must be 'exploiting' the game engine.  I am gamy if I try to save any of my PI units be evacuating them by air, sub and ship from PI or DEI bases even though I take horrendous losses doing so.  I am a sorry, gamy, son of a bitch if I transfer fighters in to a given base and attempt to fight game-engine-enhanced (gamy!) Zero squadrons that a couple of days ago were Claudes.
 
God help my gamy ass if I think up any strategy and catch the Japs napping in any area.   If it didn't happen historically, well it might not be a valid idea.
 
I think that covers the allied side.  I'll take a breather and work on the Japanese side.  Forgive me, I burned through another opponent today on December 15th 1941 because of some of the above.  [:D]
 
jw
 
 

[SGT Swanson]

I hope you were'nt refering to me. AS we talked earlier, I stated that you were just a better player than I am. I never considered anything you did as gamey, you just thought outside the box better then me.

[jwxspoon]

No worries Luke.  See you at CMvention next week.
 
jw

[Knavey]

ORIGINAL: pauk
allowing the side which uses such tactic precise intel - which was never be possible in RL....

Wow...intel...this game's intel is woeful. Not so much for the Japanese but for the Allies. If I am not mistaken, intel that I get in '45 looks pretty much like what I am getting in '42...except, IRL, Allies were reading every message the Japanese sent by the end of '42. As a matter of fact, they were backing up so much, that they couldn't act upon the intel that they had!

Combined Fleet Decoded is a well written (albiet ponderous at times) book that analyzes the intelligence agencies involved in the Pacific War.

Although the US intelligence services did have some issues, the stuff we see in game is about 1% of what they were really getting.

My intel list should start small, but by '43 should be 5 pages long. Including (where ships are located, where they are going, commanders of the ships...airgroups, airgroup composition, commanders of the air units...etc). Ground intel was less effective, not because it wasn't there, it's just that the US never bothered with the IJA code.

Don't bother with the argument that the IJN changes codes...most of the time the IJN pawned off their losses as a lapse of ANYTHING but a compromised code. They did change them from time to time, but the US did not waste time cracking them.

That is not to say it was all perfect, but more often that not, the intel officers were in the ballpark with their predictions.

Example - Mid 1942 off an island called Midway - Arguably, the US intels finest hour

"I want you to be specific," the admiral (Nimitz) insisted. "After all, that is the job I have given you - to be the admiral commanding the Japanese forces and tell us what you're going to do."

"All right then, Admiral, " Commander Layton essayed. "I've previously given you the intelligence that the carriers will probably attack Midway on the morning of the fourth of June, so we'll pick the fourth of June for the day. They'll come in from the northwest on a bearing of 325 degrees and they will be sighted at about 175 miles from Midway and the time will be about [6:00 A.M.] Midway time."

After the battle:

"Well," Nimitz said, "you were only FIVE MILES, FIVE DEGREES, AND 5 MINUTES off."

Source: Combined Fleet Decoded by John Prados

IMO, that is pretty good intel. Commander Layton (a fleet intelligence officer) estimated that in the Midway timeframe, the mid-Pacific radio net was intercepting about 60% of Imperial Navy message traffic and was reading about 40% of that.

That is a LOT of intel, and as the war progressed, the numbers only went up.

So...my Allied intel file should be a quite a bit longer please, and my Japanese file should probably read a bit closer to what my current allied file looks like, if you want realistic!

Edited to remove a word that changed the intent of the sentence.

[Knavey]

One other thing...On September 29, 1942, one of the Japanese weather codes became 85% transparent. This was due to Japanese code books being delivered to Pearl Harbor.  It is considered possible, but not positive, that these books came from the raid on Makin.
 
Source:  Combined Fleet Decoded by John Prados

[SGT Swanson]

Let us not forget that it was a messagr about a water distiller on Midway being broken that even gave us the place of the attack.  The Japs refered to Midway as AB in their traffic.  Untill then we didn't even know where they were going to hit.

[jwxspoon]

AF actually

[Nomad]

well stldiver, one thing to get from this thread is that everyone has their own idea of what is gamey and what is not. [8D][&:]

[stldiver]

Yes Nomad,  It has been very helpful,  I knew witp players had different views, but it gives me a good idea of what most agree to and what is sometimes considered out there.  It also matters in terms of peoples perspectives on how the game should be.  Well worth the effort of me posting in the first place, I appreciate everyones comments.  I am on Dec 15th in my first PBEM (first for both of us) and I  think a couple of the ideas should be incorporated in the game and I will bring it up with him.  If he disagrees no problem as I enjoy the game.
 
 

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: Knavey

ORIGINAL: pauk
allowing the side which uses such tactic precise intel - which was never be possible in RL....

Wow...intel...this game's intel is woeful. Not so much for the Japanese but for the Allies. If I am not mistaken, intel that I get in '45 looks pretty much like what I am getting in '42...except, IRL, Allies were reading every message the Japanese sent by the end of '42. As a matter of fact, they were backing up so much, that they couldn't act upon the intel that they had!

Combined Fleet Decoded is a well written (albiet ponderous at times) book that analyzes the intelligence agencies involved in the Pacific War.

Although the US intelligence services did have some issues, the stuff we see in game is about 1% of what they were really getting.

My intel list should start small, but by '43 should be 5 pages long. Including (where ships are located, where they are going, commanders of the ships...airgroups, airgroup composition, commanders of the air units...etc). Ground intel was less effective, not because it wasn't there, it's just that the US never bothered with the IJA code.

Don't bother with the argument that the IJN changes codes...most of the time the IJN pawned off their losses as a lapse of ANYTHING but a compromised code. They did change them from time to time, but the US did not waste time cracking them.

That is not to say it was all perfect, but more often that not, the intel officers were in the ballpark with their predictions.

Example - Mid 1942 off an island called Midway - Arguably, the US intels finest hour

"I want you to be specific," the admiral (Nimitz) insisted. "After all, that is the job I have given you - to be the admiral commanding the Japanese forces and tell us what you're going to do."

"All right then, Admiral, " Commander Layton essayed. "I've previously given you the intelligence that the carriers will probably attack Midway on the morning of the fourth of June, so we'll pick the fourth of June for the day. They'll come in from the northwest on a bearing of 325 degrees and they will be sighted at about 175 miles from Midway and the time will be about [6:00 A.M.] Midway time."

After the battle:

"Well," Nimitz said, "you were only FIVE MILES, FIVE DEGREES, AND 5 MINUTES off."

Source: Combined Fleet Decoded by John Prados

IMO, that is pretty good intel. Commander Layton (a fleet intelligence officer) estimated that in the Midway timeframe, the mid-Pacific radio net was intercepting about 60% of Imperial Navy message traffic and was reading about 40% of that.

That is a LOT of intel, and as the war progressed, the numbers only went up.

So...my Allied intel file should be a quite a bit longer please, and my Japanese file should probably read a bit closer to what my current allied file looks like, if you want realistic!

Edited to remove a word that changed the intent of the sentence.

greetings, it seems that we can argue about that all day... first, i need to mention that since english is not my native language i probably wasnt clear enough. I meant to say that dont think there is, IRL, examples when KB suprises two merchants or one PG, crew of this merchants and aux ships sent message to their Army/Navy which included number of planes involved in attack and names of enemy CV involved....

and for others: i'm not expert for enemy merchants and aux, but don't recall they were equiped with radars like were war ships....

Furtermore, allied intel is pretty good... beside number of men located in x base, there also messages xy unit planing for, transported to... etc... there is also one more thing which makes Allied intel damn good - but i won't mention it here because i'm sure that most of Allied players know about it but they keep it in a secret - [:D]

Next, air balance number is another great intel for Allies - but no one bother to mention that too...

so, i'm refusing logic that Allied players should know 5W and one H enemy CVs going to attack...

You get enough intel - but you have to do something personally if you want to win[;)]

Besides that, Allies suspect about PH strike but they get suprised, Allies get suprised at Philippines... etc...

[SGT Swanson]

Thanks for the correction Jeff.
 
Look at it this way guys, stop and wonder just how big and combersum the game would get if they built an intel model into it?  This is a simple model that basically works for everyone on an even keel leaning a little towards the Allies, because they kept breaking the Jap's codes.