PBEM Scenario Count

[BlackOmne]

From reading the reviews, it seems that many of the included scenarios are PBEM only. As someone considering buying this version of TOAW, I want to know how many of the 130-200 included scenarios are PBEM-only. Does anyone have an idea or a count?

[nemo69]

From memory, there are 22 scenarios that are explicitly PBEM-only. With the latest patch, all scenarios briefings (with the exception of the Classic TOAW folder) clearly indicate whether the scenario is playable against the PO (and for which side) or PBEM-only.
It is assumed that the Classic TOAW scenarios are playable against the PO for either side (with the exception of Balkans 12).

Hope it helps you take the right decision [;)]

[Catch21]

I'd just add that sooner or later you'll probably want to play against another human. I remember how terrified I was when I first stepped out at Arracourt 44 against Ravenstrike. I don't think either of us looked back, though I'm currently having trouble in the New Player Tournament at SZO trying to keep the new AI (Elmer) in his box and show the new lads how it's done.

[nemo69]

Ditto that!

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: General Staff

I'd just add that sooner or later you'll probably want to play against another human.

Personally, I never had that desire.

I compete enough in my real life. For gaming I just want a fun experience, not a struggle for supremcy.

But I can understand how folks would like to play each other. Different strokes for different folks.

Ray (alias Lava)

[Johnus]

Ditto Lava.  I've been wargaming since the 60's, basically solitaire.  In the old days I played board games against myself;  now mostly against computer PO's.  And I prefer playing (simulating) alone, at my own pace and at my own convenience.  I'd bet that this is how most wargames, board and computer are, and were ever, played. 
 
In any case, that's my hobby.

[GreenDestiny]

I agree and the PBEM game that I'm playing now will probably be my last. I started a game in April and we are only on turn 15 now at the end of July. Talk about a boring and useless game. I forgot what the hell I wanted to do in this game about four or five times already.
I think my opponent wants me to give in thru boredom as he knows that the only way he will win.

[geozero]

I also agree. PBEM for the most part is boring. Especially on a very long game of more than 50 turns. It could take 6 months or more to finish.

I don't think that was the intent of the PBEM concept...but it is the reality. People lead lives, sometimes very complicated lives. We can not always say we can deliver 1 turn a day or 3 turns a week. Life gets in the way...

Hotseat or "live" as in FPS games is the only way to compete against a human opponent.

That leaves the AI... perhaps the least understood and hardest element to program in any game based on input I've received over the years from people that program... it's very hard to program what I like to call the "stupid factor", that element in all humans where we simply make a dumb mistake or forget something. We've all done it. Forgot to move a unit, or send an airstrike, etc. That's got to be the hardest element to program.

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: geozero
PBEM for the most part is boring. Especially on a very long game of more than 50 turns. It could take 6 months or more to finish.

I played a game of FitE once up to turn 80 something and conceeded since it was obvious that he was going to win...but I think the trick is to play more than one PBEM game simultaneously so that you always have something to do. And make copious notes to remind yourself what objectives are next, etc. That 80 turns took from December until July or something like that. About four turns a week I'm guessing. Most of the time Karri E. and I could give each other about one day turn-over but sometimes RL interveins and you gotta give each other slack for that.

I guess whether or not it's boring depends on the scenario, whether or not you're patient, the dude you're playing against ( whether or not he's any good to keep you guessing what he's going to do next and where ), and some intangible things like distractions you allow yourself.....TV, Books, girlfriend / wife, etc.

I try to listen to music when I'm making my moves....sometimes it helps, sometimes it's a distraction, depends on the music. Other people like to listen to the sound effects built into the game but after the 10,000th time of hearing the tank trundle past or the marching feet go past, etc. you kinda want to hear something else.

[nemo69]

ORIGINAL: geozero

I also agree. PBEM for the most part is boring. Especially on a very long game of more than 50 turns. It could take 6 months or more to finish.

Well, you find it boring - I find the AI boring. Matter of opinion. Among others, I've got at least two games going for a long time (CFNA for two years and Piero's Great War for a year). Turn 83 and 140 respectively. Bored? Not in the least.

I don't think that was the intent of the PBEM concept...but it is the reality. People lead lives, sometimes very complicated lives. We can not always say we can deliver 1 turn a day or 3 turns a week. Life gets in the way...

Yeah, humans are not machines, big news.

Hotseat or "live" as in FPS games is the only way to compete against a human opponent.

Wrong, there's PBEM, your opinion notwithstanding.

That leaves the AI... perhaps the least understood and hardest element to program in any game based on input I've received over the years from people that program... it's very hard to program what I like to call the "stupid factor", that element in all humans where we simply make a dumb mistake or forget something. We've all done it. Forgot to move a unit, or send an airstrike, etc. That's got to be the hardest element to program.

In fact, it probably can't be programmed. Within its logic, Elmer doesn't ever make mistakes.

[Industrial]

ORIGINAL: Nemo69

ORIGINAL: geozero

I also agree. PBEM for the most part is boring. Especially on a very long game of more than 50 turns. It could take 6 months or more to finish.

Well, you find it boring - I find the AI boring. Matter of opinion. Among others, I've got at least two games going for a long time (CFNA for two years and Piero's Great War for a year. Turn 83 and 140 respectively. Bored? Not in the least.

I totally agree, PBEM is the only thing I still play in TOAW, there is no need to play against the PO as I already know that I'm about to win even before I start, now, where's the joy in that?
Besides I see it as a kind of wast to develop a cunning strategy to beat the PO, because you now that he simply can't respond appropriately.
And I usualy play the monster games, where the PO won't work anyway [:)]

[Catch21]

ORIGINAL: Johnnie
I've been wargaming since the 60's, basically solitaire. In the old days I played board games against myself, now mostly against computer PO's. And I prefer playing (simulating) alone, at my own pace and at my own convenience. I'd bet that this is how most wargames, board and computer are, and were ever, played.

I hear this and totally understand it. When I boardgamed it was very rare I found an opponent- in fact maybe 3 times in 10 years.

If the pace isn't quick enough PBEM, I'd suggest have several games going at once or switch opponents. In fact with this in mind and thinking a little laterally, maybe solitaire gamers might benefit from playing- well- each other. That way the problems they've encountered in PBEM previously are shared and hopefully overcome playing folks of a similar mindset.

[Catch21]

So Lava, Johnnie, GreenDestiny and geozero- how about it? If you're new to TOAW you could sign up at the 2WIN New Players Workshop at SZO.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: geozero

I also agree. PBEM for the most part is boring.

Play someone you know in an interesting scenario, and write a running AAR as you go. Pick a scenario of manageable size and length.

PBMing TOAW does take a bit more effort than hotseat or vs. PO, but it can be very rewarding.

it's very hard to program what I like to call the "stupid factor", that element in all humans where we simply make a dumb mistake or forget something. We've all done it. Forgot to move a unit, or send an airstrike, etc. That's got to be the hardest element to program.

I don't think this should be part of the PO's behaviour. Real armies don't do this. Their mistakes tend to be much more spectacular.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Industrial

I totally agree, PBEM is the only thing I still play in TOAW, there is no need to play against the PO as I already know that I'm about to win even before I start, now, where's the joy in that?

Then play an unbalanced scenario.

[GreenDestiny]

I guess it all depends on your opponent. I had some good ones, and like right now I have some bad ones. The game that I'm in started off good when it was up in the air, but now that I'm dominating it I'm lucky if I get 5 turns in two months.
I haven't tried a TOAW PBEM game yet, but I'm sure people are the same everywhere. I just prefer signal player games more as waiting for a game turn can be so freaking frustrating.

[*Lava*]

Hi!

Believe it or not, the only "PBEM" game I enjoyed was "Massive Assault Network."

It basically is a server site where folks can challenge others, limit the experience factor of who challenges you, has a ladder, and puts a limit on how long a person can wait before they return their move. If the person does not respond in the alloted time, then he loses the game, and points are awarded to the other player. By having a server, I believe cheating was pretty much stopped. There also was a chat room as well.

I really liked that setup. At one point I was playing about 15 or so games at the same time. It was great fun.

A setup like this is the only way I would play PBEM.

Ray (alias Lava)

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Lava

A setup like this is the only way I would play PBEM.

I avoid the problems you talk about by playing people I know.

[Catch21]

ORIGINAL: GreenDestiny
I haven't tried a TOAW PBEM game yet, but I'm sure people are the same everywhere. I just prefer signal player games more as waiting for a game turn can be so freaking frustrating.

It's not too late to sign up for the New Players Workshop. Or create your own house rule with a potential PBEM opponent- either a turn a day/week/month or it's an automatic Overwhelming Victory for me (or you). Anyone responding to this gauntlet demonstrates a certain level of commitment.

[siRkid]

I for one enjoy PBEM games.  I've got a PBEM game going now that is over a year old (WitP). We are on turn 443 or something like that. The best part of it is that I've made some good friends through PBEM games. Just my 2 cents.