Tank AI Behavior & Overrun

[eengstrom]

What gives with infantry being vulnerable to small arms fire while riding in APC? Several of my squads were killed by enemy small arms fire at long range while closing with ground floor, level 1 buildings while hunkered down in the back of a nice, safe APC. I don't understand why infantry can be individually targeted, or what weapons Russian light infantry can be using at 400 yards to kill all of my infantry so effectivly inside an APC. Help me out with that one. It just seems that the infantry are riding outside the APC... *hint hint*

My largest complaint to date is:

So I send my infantry support tanks forward along with my own dismounted infantry.

"Careful men! There's a infantry unit directly in front of us!" The tank begins turning upon contact with the enemy infantry it is seeking to destroy.

"Sir, turning tank around, fleeing from infan...." *KABOOM* The tank is destroyed by infantry that it was closing to engage by turning it's tissue paper armored rear directly against the enemy. The path showed a nice blocky route around the infantry unit. The infantry unit had just routed out of the building I was going to send the tank to destroy.

Then same infantry unit comes under enfilade from APC, infantry, tank MG and main gun fire from less than 100 meters with no obstructions, ground cover. 10 turns later one of my IF2 and one of my infantry squads have still failed to kill or destroy the squad of Russian infantry.

Quite something those Russian conscripts.

[Erik Rutins]

Hi Erik,

ORIGINAL: eengstrom
What gives with infantry being vulnerable to small arms fire while riding in APC? Several of my squads were killed by enemy small arms fire at long range while closing with ground floor, level 1 buildings while hunkered down in the back of a nice, safe APC. I don't understand why infantry can be individually targeted, or what weapons Russian light infantry can be using at 400 yards to kill all of my infantry so effectivly inside an APC. Help me out with that one. It just seems that the infantry are riding outside the APC... *hint hint*

They're actually somewhat protected - infantry in APCs get a -1 modifier to enemy firepower directed against them. Since they're also allowed to fire out, we figured it made sense to give them some protection but make them targetable.

So I send my infantry support tanks forward along with my own dismounted infantry.
"Careful men! There's a infantry unit directly in front of us!" The tank begins turning upon contact with the enemy infantry it is seeking to destroy.

Yes, that's true, we didn't put in a "run over enemy infantry" ability in this release and what you're seeing is the collision detection at work. In reality, I think infantry could avoid overruns in the vast majority of situations, but it makes sense to allow tanks to move through enemy infantry if ordered to do so while still avoiding friendly infantry.

"Sir, turning tank around, fleeing from infan...." *KABOOM* The tank is destroyed by infantry that it was closing to engage by turning it's tissue paper armored rear directly against the enemy. The path showed a nice blocky route around the infantry unit. The infantry unit had just routed out of the building I was going to send the tank to destroy.

They must have been hit by something else in this case though, as routed units can't fire or close assault.

Then same infantry unit comes under enfilade from APC, infantry, tank MG and main gun fire from less than 100 meters with no obstructions, ground cover. 10 turns later one of my IF2 and one of my infantry squads have still failed to kill or destroy the squad of Russian infantry.

This sounds quite bizarre, honestly and I wonder if you found some kind of bug, unless you're seeing this consistently. I've seen infantry in buildings in the initial release survive a large amount of firepower, but not infantry in the open. The new detailed infantry combat modeling should help with this as well in that it's not "all or nothing" - infantry can accumulate casualties and eventually be destroyed even if they aren't destroyed in one shot.

Regards,

- Erik

[eengstrom]

Erik,

I have not seen infantry in halftrack fire, when set to default "Defend".

I have seen all too often the infantry bail out of the half track from MG and weapon squad fire from 600+ meters. This kinda defeats the purpose of training your troops to be mechanized.

Using the standard SPWAW as a model, I would expect the Pnz IIIL to be capable of rolling through an enemy and disrupting it quite heavily. At the point my tank made contact, the enemy was not routed. Eventually after reloading the game from this order turn, the questionable infantry unit was destroyed about four turns later once it had cleared the building by 30+ meters. Perhaps it was still counting as cover.

I do like the way you can overrun infantry with armor in SPWAW. I do like how infantry CAN assault or run, it's kind of a gamble. I'd hope to see similar AI in later releases of PC.

Apparently the tank that was destroyed was hit by this previously routed infantry squad as I can see it quite clearly in the log when it happens. I restarted the scenario using the same tactics and this time only lost 1 half track to the long range Russian 76mm ATGs.

Thanks for your reply, keep up the good work and communication.

[Erik Rutins]

Erik,

ORIGINAL: eengstrom
I have not seen infantry in halftrack fire, when set to default "Defend".

Hm, I see this all the time. I just saw this yesterday in fact, so I'm not sure why they wouldn't be firing for you. They auto-target and fire as long as they can see a target in range.

I have seen all too often the infantry bail out of the half track from MG and weapon squad fire from 600+ meters. This kinda defeats the purpose of training your troops to be mechanized.

I've seen bail outs happen when things really get hot at about 200-300m. In general, infantry will only bail out if they rout. In order to rout infantry in a halftrack at 600m, you need a very lucky shot. It's possible, but extremely unlikely based on the game system itself. How often are you seeing this?

It sounds like the best solution for us might be to add some extra protection to the infantry in halftracks if they are not actually actively firing out. That way, those that are firing out are still more vulnerable, but those riding hunkered down at 600m from their destination are much less likely to take any damage.

Using the standard SPWAW as a model, I would expect the Pnz IIIL to be capable of rolling through an enemy and disrupting it quite heavily. At the point my tank made contact, the enemy was not routed. Eventually after reloading the game from this order turn, the questionable infantry unit was destroyed about four turns later once it had cleared the building by 30+ meters. Perhaps it was still counting as cover.

Apparently the tank that was destroyed was hit by this previously routed infantry squad as I can see it quite clearly in the log when it happens. I restarted the scenario using the same tactics and this time only lost 1 half track to the long range Russian 76mm ATGs.

This is a slightly more tactical scale than SPWAW in that we go down to terrain by the meter, so much of what happens during an overrun in SPWAW is similar to parking your tank about 40m away from infantry, out of their close assault range and pounding on them.

The infantry you described really shouldn't have been able to attack while routed. If this happens again, please post a save file for us and we'll investigate. I think you'll also be pretty happy with the improved infantry modeling in v1.11.

I do like the way you can overrun infantry with armor in SPWAW. I do like how infantry CAN assault or run, it's kind of a gamble. I'd hope to see similar AI in later releases of PC.

We'll make it possible to overrun infantry. Whether it will be a good idea depends on the situation. In many cases, trying to overrun infantry historically would lead to a destroyed tank. However, allowing some kind of morale check when a tank gets within a certain distance might be appropriate.

Thanks for your reply, keep up the good work and communication.

Thanks for the feedback. I think I have a good handle on the points that are bothering you and I think v1.11 will address some of them and the others will be added to the list for future work.

Regards,

- Erik

[junk2drive]

Erik,

quote:

ORIGINAL: eengstrom
I have not seen infantry in halftrack fire, when set to default "Defend".

Hm, I see this all the time. I just saw this yesterday in fact, so I'm not sure why they wouldn't be firing for you. They auto-target and fire as long as they can see a target in range.

When I have seen this with any unit it is usually a case of my unit cannot see the enemy.
If I manually target after the fact, I get a poor chance or grey line.
Remember that the HT may see the threat but the passengers may not.

I do think that HTs could provide more protection but historically IIRC they could be filled with holes from most small arms.