Torpedos usage

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shoevarek
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RE: Torpedos usage

Post by shoevarek »

Torpedos, if used realistically rarely, should also be one hit - one kill weapons on anything smaller than CA (in most cases). Having AKs absorb 3-4 aerial or submarine torpedos before dying is just insane (it helps mitigate torpedo abundance somewhat, though)

This is very true. There is also another piece that noone mentioned. The AI is not smart enough to make correct arming decission. Limiting number of torpedoes alone would make game unplayable. How many times AI would expend entire stock of torps against some unsignificant target?!
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ChezDaJez
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RE: Torpedos usage

Post by ChezDaJez »

How about no naval strike missions for that type airframe except from level 6 AF or a base where a "designated Naval Base Force" non-fragment is operating; where the IJN has say 2 of these base units. Cuts down on the "Kuching-Jolo-Kendari-Amboina" line of death in the early war and stresses the importance of major bases/special circumstances for these types of units.

Well, that would pretty much knock out any use of Bettys and Nells whatsoever if they are restricted to level 6 airfields as the only ones under Japanese control at the start outside of the Home Islands is Takao. That means no historical torpedo attacks from Saigon against the POW and Repulse and no reason to keep Bettys and Nells anywhere outside of the Home Isalnds or Takao.

As far as "a base where a designated Naval Base Force non-fragment is operating", I don't think that will work as the number of Naval Base Forces are few and far between and have only 30 AV support points. If someone were to propose that as a houserule, I would respond with the requirement that all army 2E and 4E be supported by only army base forces.

People complain that Betty and Nell torpedo attacks are too frequent, that there are too many torpedos available and I would agree. There are also too many 4E bombers available along with the unlimited numbers of bombs to drop.

Allied players look on the Betty as a dangerous weapon and they should but they have to realize it is not without great cost. The extended range is 20 and the normal range is 15. The Betty can use torps at normal range but the problem is that there are very few areas on the map that the Betty can fly at those ranges without encountering LR CAP. They will be slaughtered if they fly opposed missions unescorted. The maximum escort range of the Zero is 11 hexes. Any one who sets Betty or Nell range greater than 11 will sooner or later pay the price. At least for me, Betty range is limited to what I can excort them at so call it a range of 11 hexes. That's only 1 hex more than the B-17 can fly with a normal loadout. And given that the B-17 hit rate against shipping exceeds a Betty's torpedo hit rate, which is the more dangerous opponent?

Personally, the best way to avoid Bettys and their torpedos is to avoid there operating areas or provide good CAP defenses. The Bettys can't survive without escort.

Just my thoughts.

Chez



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bradfordkay
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RE: Torpedos usage

Post by bradfordkay »

Chez, the problem with your last comment is that the allies will never be able to instigate a surprise naval bombardment against any base with Betties, as their normal range means that they will get in torpedo attacks on a bombardment TF long before it reaches that base. Compare this to the allies: their B17s and B24s can attack those bombardment TFs, but will do little to no damage to those TFs. We all know that the answer to the tactic of massing bombers at a strongpoint is to use naval bombardment, but in effect this tactic is usable only by the Japanese players.

You say that the B17 is more dangerous than the Betty to enemy shipping. I'm wondering if you failed a pee test... even the occaisional 1000lb bomb is less dangerous to a capital ship than a torpedo and the 500lber is a laugher if you're talking capital ships.
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dtravel
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RE: Torpedos usage

Post by dtravel »

Chez also seriously overstates the hit percentages that the 4E bombers get.  Even against fixed positions like airfields and ports testing long ago showed that only something like 1% to 4% of the bombs dropped did any damage.  And that is a situation where at least the program theoritically allows more than one bomb per plane to hit.  Combined with the game's understating bomb power and overstating IJN ships' armor....
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RE: Torpedos usage

Post by Drongo »

ORIGINAL: KDonovan
In dealing with the Betty/Nell torpedo problem, i really couldn't think of any house rule to limited there use (like Tabpud did) therefore i came up with a similar "2 model approach" like the Beauforts. However then i realized players would probably only produced the torpedo carrying model. Therefore i figured if you made the torpedo carrying model expensive to make (as torpedos were) by requiring lets say 6 engines to produce a torpedo carrying betty/nell, then players may not be able to produce as many of that model. Which may produce a more historical usage of torpedos

It wouldn't surprise me if 4E bombers are treated differently to 2E bombers by the code in ways other than just being more expensive to produce (IIRC, it may be that a 4E aircraft is considered a bigger target than a 2E aircraft when shot at by fighters or AA).

It'd be worth doing a solid test to check for things like the above before implementing such a solution.

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RE: Torpedos usage

Post by ChezDaJez »

Bradfordkay and dtravel:

I have been on the receiving end of many allied 4e attacks against my ships and each and every time my ships have had to spend long periods of time in port repairing. Its true that the capital ships normally don't get much flot damage but their topsides are swiss cheese. I've had ships where every single AA gun was destroyed plus uncontrolled fires will certainly put any ship at 99 sys damage quite rapidly. And 4Es do sink escorts quite well.

I'd rather face a couple Daitais of Bettys than a couple of BGs of 4Es.

dtravel: Let's assume that the 4Es get a 4% hit rate for each bomb dropped. B-17s carry 12-500lb bombs. If 2 BGs of 48 aircraft each attack (total 96 bombers), that's 1152 bombs dropped. At a 4% hit rate, thats 46 hits. In effective that is a 46.9% hit rate per aircraft.

For the B-24 its even worse because they carry 16 bombs. So 96 B-24s carry 1536 bombs. 4% hit rate = 61 hits or a 63.5% hit rate per aircraft. The Bettys have nowhere near that kind of accuracy. While its true you are going to get flot hits with torps, a ship without a topside isn't much good to anyone. And fire damage can sink a ship, especially a soft skinned one. Anything less than a CA is going to get pulverized and sunk. After a few bombardment attempts the Japanese capital ships will all be in the yards and the CLs and DDs are aritificial reefs. And we all know how slow capital ships repair. Heaven forbid that the 4Es catch a carrier.

And this isn't even considering 1000lb bombs.

Let me ask you both this. Assume that both players have bases in and around the NG and the Solomons that need to be supplied. Both sides are faced with running a gauntlet of enemy LBA to resupply their bases. Each side can call on any ship type and has plenty of fighter assets.

Would you rather be the Japanese player with 100 Bettys at Rabaul or the allied player with 100 B-24s at PM?

Chez



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tabpub
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RE: Torpedos usage

Post by tabpub »

quote:
How about no naval strike missions for that type airframe except from level 6 AF or a base where a "designated Naval Base Force" non-fragment is operating; where the IJN has say 2 of these base units. Cuts down on the "Kuching-Jolo-Kendari-Amboina" line of death in the early war and stresses the importance of major bases/special circumstances for these types of units.


Well, that would pretty much knock out any use of Bettys and Nells whatsoever if they are restricted to level 6 airfields as the only ones under Japanese control at the start outside of the Home Islands is Takao. That means no historical torpedo attacks from Saigon against the POW and Repulse and no reason to keep Bettys and Nells anywhere outside of the Home Isalnds or Takao.

As far as "a base where a designated Naval Base Force non-fragment is operating", I don't think that will work as the number of Naval Base Forces are few and far between and have only 30 AV support points. If someone were to propose that as a houserule, I would respond with the requirement that all army 2E and 4E be supported by only army base forces.


Ok, Saigon is an exception as she is a 5 with a SPS of 6; I thought that it started at 6. So allow GM bombers naval attack out of there for the initial war and that it be built up to 6 by Jan/Feb or naval attacks by GM types have to cease (would simulate the using up of the finite resource of torpedos).

As to the 2nd para, I think that I was not clear. Let me restate: the presence of one of these designated Naval Base forces allows that base to have GM types on naval attack; the other aviation support can be provided from normal base units. We are not limiting the amount of GM bombers to the aviation support of the special base unit, just having one of those units at a base lets it fly GM types on naval attack. So, early war, if you want Betties wave hopping with torpedos out of Kendari in February, move a designated NBF there before enabling the naval attack on them. Later on, there are many bases that can be built up to 6, providing many nodes for level bomber torpedo bases. The Marshalls are one of the areas that there are few bases if any of that type, indicating the need to raise Tarawa to that level and/or base a designated NBF there for that type of mission.

And for the record in the 2nd para of the post, I did mention docking the 4e's with a similar rule, 6 size or a command/AF HQ of the same theater assignment as the BG. And that would be for any mission other than search. If you want B17s out of Surabaya in March as Allied, pay the PP to call them ABDA and have the ABDA HQ there to run the show. If not, don't run anything other than search. And then if you want to move them to India, pay the PP to call them SEAC and have either SEAC or an Army Hq or wait for 10th AF to show up and run them.

Both are kinda boring, but illustrate some of the early war problems that heavy bombers had, that of getting the right supplies and equipment to the right places either before or just as the bombers arrive to do operations. But both require the players to perform the actions, not the program; ergo, it will only happen between consenting adults.......hehe...
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castor troy
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RE: Torpedos usage

Post by castor troy »

We are discussing many issues of the game. No matter if too blody air combat, broken ground combat, too much supply, too much torpedoes, ASW good or bad, too many 4E bombers, PDU on or off,..... and many other things I´ve surely not mentioned. And I can say it´s good to discuss those things. But a thing that always comes to my mind during such discussions is the problem that if we really would face accurate historical facts nobody would like to play this game.

Imagine having only a couple of BB bombardments in 4 years of war. Only let´s say 20 times in 4 years of naval attacks of bombers armed with torpedoes. Only twice a month an attack on an airfield with around 30 4E bombers. And this goes on and on....

The more we discuss what would be possible in 41-45 the more I have to say that the game would become more and more boring. I agree with most of the things discussed on the forum and that there should be made some changes and the different mods are doing a good job [&o] but still some changes should be done to the code. Many things are seen too often and are too blody, but if you see them only once or twice in a year of game time (which often is a year in RL also) then it would be really boring for me.
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RE: Torpedos usage

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,

This was covered many times and once quite extensively in thread I started [8D] about how to limit torpedo usage from land bases... [:D]


I only wish the damn forum search engine allows me to find that older thread


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RE: Torpedos usage

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,

I had to list every post I made and then manually search... [:@]


Here is poll and thread that "Mogami" created out of my original thread:


"Solution to excessive Torpedo use (from land bases)"

tm.asp?m=1122354&mpage=1


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RE: Torpedos usage

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,

here is the original thread I started and from which "Mogami" created a poll (see above):


"Small/quick/simple idea how to restrict land based bomber torpedo attacks..."

tm.asp?m=1116695&mpage=1


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RE: Torpedos usage

Post by tsimmonds »

I had to list every post I made

Huh? How do you do that?[X(]
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Apollo11
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RE: Torpedos usage

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: irrelevant
I had to list every post I made

Huh? How do you do that?[X(]

Not all... that's, unfortunately, not posible... just 300 at the time (i.e. MAX)... the "all" is in regard of option in search engine...


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RE: Torpedos usage

Post by bradfordkay »

Chez, If I had to choose between using 100 Betties or 100 B24s for the scenario you are providing, it would be the Betties, hands down. They use up fewer supplies, can be launched from smaller bases, and are more effective against shipping. Their only weakness is the higher loss rate - but it costs fewer supplies to replace them, I believe (could be wrong on that last one). They can also prevent a naval bombardment of their home base.

As mentioned before, 4E bombers are heavily restricted with house rules such as "no naval attacks" or "naval attacks no lower than 15000 feet". Personally, even though I only play against the AI, I will not drop my 4E bombers below 11000 feet - and I have not been getting much in the way of hits on shipping with them since I have done this.

Why is it so wrong to discuss house rules for Betties/Nells/Beauforts ?
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RE: Torpedos usage

Post by ChezDaJez »

Why is it so wrong to discuss house rules for Betties/Nells/Beauforts ?

Its not wrong. I think you misread me. I just don't think that there is a workable house rule to be found for torpedo aircraft that doesn't require tons of micromanagement. As the player has no ability to control loadouts, I don't think any house rule would prevent torpedo attacks.

I prefer changing the game system to incorporate torpedo production. I think this is the best way to handle the problem. However, I also recognize that it is unlikely to happen wiothout a major rewrite of the game.

If someone came up with a way to manage torpedo aircraft without crippling them or increasing their production costs, then I would probably support it. Currently, the only house rule I would support is limiting their range to 11 (A6M range)when conducting torpedo attacks. This is easily done and doesn't require micromanagement.

The only house rule regarding 4Es we have in my game with AndyMac is that attacks can not be conducted by more than 2 BGs against any one target at a time. He can use them on antishipping roles (and does...ouch), airfield suppression (ouch), abd city attack (ouch). He can have as many BGs as they base can handle, he just can't mass them into an attack against one target.


Chez
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ChezDaJez
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RE: Torpedos usage

Post by ChezDaJez »

Chez, If I had to choose between using 100 Betties or 100 B24s for the scenario you are providing, it would be the Betties, hands down. They use up fewer supplies, can be launched from smaller bases, and are more effective against shipping. Their only weakness is the higher loss rate - but it costs fewer supplies to replace them, I believe (could be wrong on that last one). They can also prevent a naval bombardment of their home base.

And I would choose the B-24 because that at the end of the month, the Japanese ships will all be in repair yards (or on their way), that every Japanese airfield within range will be heavily damaged, that the Japanese fighter force would be crewed by 40-something experience pilots and probably very short of pool aircraft.

You say you woiuld choose the Betty because it can be launched from a smaller airfield (lvl 4 vs lvl 5). So can the B-24, just with a reduced bomb load. Try a Betty from a level 3 aircrfield and see what you get. Not only no torps, but a reduced bombload to boot. The B-24 will even launch froma level 3 airfield at reduced numbers and load but it still launches.

The loss rate for the Betty will be horrendous, something on the order of 20%+ per mission even if the target is a naval force without fighter cover. At the end of 5-6 missions, you won't have enough left to do the job. I have yet to see a 4E shotdown by ships.

Yes, the allied player would suffer ship losses but they are replaceable (or respawn). Japanese losses aren't. And a japanese BB spending a year in a yard to repair is a BB that might as well be on the bottom of the ocean. By the time it comes out of port, the war situation will have changed drastically and its offensive capability has been neutered by allied air superiority, just as IRL. Not to mention the huge drain on supply and HI the repair requires.

Yes, it does cost fewer supply to replace a Betty but supply isn't an issue for the allied player, only its location. Supply is a major factor.

In the scenario I mentioned. The B-24 will sweep the seas of Japanese supply transports heading for Rabaul. The Bettys will be crumpled pieces of metal sitting on the bottom of the ocean due to allied LR CAP and lack of escort. That's assuming they can takeoff on a mission after an allied heavy bomb mission.

I have one game with LordMaul in which we have no restrictions on allied 4Es. I haven't seen an allied combatant that isn't a part of an invasion force in months (Feb 43) because he dosen't need to use them. He simply paves the way for invasion with 500+ heavies that destroy everything in their path. I'v emanaged to shoot down nearly 300 of them but he has a seemingly endless supply. This is why I insist on a restriction no more than 2 BGs of allied 4Es attacking any one target.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just don't want to see the one effective Japanese offensive weapon neutered to the point that it becomes useless. The allied player has many options to reduce the Betty effectiveness. The Japanese player has very few in comparison. Even a successful Japanese bombardment will have only a temporary effect on the 4Es. The allied player will have replaced any losses and repaired the airfield well before the severely damaged Japanese ships make it back to port, let alone to a repair yard.

One last point in regard to allied bombers interdicting Japanese bombardments. It doesn't take many hits to cause enough sys dam to drop the Japanese ships speed to the point that it can no longer scoot and shoot and avoid SBDs and Avengers. Just a few allied PTs at the base will greatly reduce the effectiveness of the bombardment and they may even torp a capital ship. And from what I've seen, allied PTs are nearly invincible to Japanese airpower. I've learned (and relearned) that point.

Anyways, like I said, I'm not trying to be unreasonable. I want a workable solution that is satisfactory to both sides.

Chez
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RE: Torpedos usage

Post by spence »

From post #1 we hear that Akagi carried only 36 torpedoes in her magazines.

If I recall correctly the max sorties for Akagi is over 400 and CAP doesn't count. That's around 9-10 strike missions per attack type a/c without replenishment. A theoretical 180-200 or so torpedoes. Seems a really really "a bit" over the top.


Does anyone have the magazine loadout figures for any other carriers of either side? Searching around on the web I've not been able to find any.
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RE: Torpedos usage

Post by spence »

Come to think of it 9-10 strike sorties per attack a/c with any kind of ordinance (w/o replenishment) seems a bit over the top.
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RE: Torpedos usage

Post by Daniel Oskar »

In Friedman's US Aircraft carriers appendix D there are several magazine loadouts. below is the Enterprise in Oct 43

100lb GP 504
500lb GP 288
500lb SAP 288
1000lb GP 378
1000lb SAP 378
1000lb AP 378
1600lb AP 18
2000lb GP 18
325lb DC 288
100lb Inc 288
Torpedoes 36
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RE: Torpedos usage

Post by bradfordkay »

"He simply paves the way for invasion with 500+ heavies that destroy everything in their path. I'v emanaged to shoot down nearly 300 of them but he has a seemingly endless supply."


Chez, are you guys playing the stock game? I have never seen that many 4E bombers in my air forces, though the only game I ever got into mid '43 was the first CHS issue. I do prefer the scenarios which place a more realistic replacement rate for aircraft as this prevents a lot of this nonsense.

I think that I will play a house rule that limits multi-engined torpedo carrying aircraft to level 5 airfields if they are to launch Naval Strikes. This will require the Japanese player to build up Kuching and Jolo before they can launch these attacks - simulating the effort to bring the torpedoes and associated equipment into play. I realize that it isn't a perfect solution - there is none without a change to the game code, which is not something I expect to happen. It just irks me to see my retreating task forces getting nailed by torpedo carrying Betties/Nells the day after Kuching falls (as an example).
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