RHS EOS - Bliztk (A) vs El Cid Again (J) - Allied Thread

[Bliztk]

Obviously, this thread is off limits to El Cid Again.

After several months of hiatus playing WitP, I`m going to leave stock for the first time and give a try to RHS playing with the designer of the scenario itself ¡¡

We don´t have house rules yet, but PDU is going to be ON

Cid is on holidays for a few days, and I have begun mine, so I have some days to prepare all the files/assorting material to prepare myself to play and to squash some erratas in the Database.

Feel free for write here comments

[aztez]

Good luck! I'am about square off with againts Nemo121 using RHS. (I play allied side too)
 
I'am actually somewhat "scared" when looking around the Allied setup at the start. I think Japanese player will have even greater chance to gain "territory" than in stock game. (I seriously think so and Nemo seems pleased too how things are at the start for Japan too.)
 
Hopefully I'am wrong (for both of us sake).
 
I haven't made up on how to approach the RHS mod. Speanking frankly the situation at Oz and India is a total mess. Troops and supplies need to be shipped but the problem is that there pretty much is none available at start. The extra PP's can make a quite an diffrence for the Japanese.
 
I'am thinking of going on guns blazing at the start. (Nothing to loose and Allied player will need A LOT of time or else... )
 
Anyway, I will be following this one with an intrest.

[Bliztk]

Have you looked at the situation in Java?

Landing in Palembang with 5 Divs and marching south threatening amphibious assaults until you get to Bali is a good idea for the Japanese and I don´t have a good solution either

[aztez]

I have looked the situation at Java and I agree with you. That advance must be made harder for Japan but how... [:(] Only things you have available are some "obsolete" bombers and scattered navy. I guess you could try to sneak some reinforcements out of Malaya and deploy them to DEI. (It is risky and might speed up the Japanese conquest of Singapore)

Nemo is currently working at the turn. Once it is in I will take more careful look. India is also huge corcern for me. I don't like what I see in Oz either.

Well, it is diffrent than "stock" that for sure! [:)]

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Bliztk

Have you looked at the situation in Java?

Landing in Palembang with 5 Divs and marching south threatening amphibious assaults until you get to Bali

How do you mean "marching south"? You mean you can march your infantry from Sumatra to Java to Bali without ever loading them into APs?? Looking at the road network on your screenshot it appears to be so. Isn't this, ahem, VERY unhistoric and somewhat strange? Please explain, thanks....

[aztez]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: Bliztk

Have you looked at the situation in Java?

Landing in Palembang with 5 Divs and marching south threatening amphibious assaults until you get to Bali

How do you mean "marching south"? You mean you can march your infantry from Sumatra to Java to Bali without ever loading them into APs?? Looking at the road network on your screenshot it appears to be so. Isn't this, ahem, VERY unhistoric and somewhat strange? Please explain, thanks....

I have busy IRL but actually had just time to look at DEI setup.

To answer your question... well, yes it seems you could do just that. I don't have any histrorical info about the situation at DEI but that does sound somewhat odd to me.... and it can actually speed up the enemy advance greatly! [&:]

[Bliztk]

The reasoning seem that here the distance between the islands were small and there was ferrying services. So moving between islands should trigger a Shock attack, I guess.

Situation is not as grim as it seems, but I`m in the middle of formulating my plan

[DuckofTindalos]

"Ferrying services" are one thing, but we're potentially talking about moving whole divisions by small craft. That's complete bull-sh*t...

[Nemo121]

Well I presume it is intended to model unrepresented island ferries etc of the local economy plus an element of "requisition by bayonet" from every fishing village on the map.
 
I think that people are rushing far too quickly to judgement. You can't say it is "bullshit" until you know much more about it.
 
Let's be clear, moving an entire division using a single rowing boat capable of taking 6 men per trip ( plus 2 oarsmen), with each trip taking 2 hours, is NOT bullshit!!! It is unfeasibly slow and easily countered but it isn't bullshit. It is an option for those who believe its advantages outweigh its disadvantages ( or those desparate enough to try anything), not a good option but an option.
 
So, really this all boils down to how much can be moved over a give time. El Cid, Mifune ( or anyone else), any news on this? ( Or the RHS manual... I have some free time this evening and would love to get stuck into it.)
 

FWIW I've run a couple of tests on Brunei and Soerabaja etc. These are SIGNIFICANTLY more difficult to take than in stock. Brunei, for example, instead of being attacked by a small NLF, now warrants, IMO, over 200 AV of troops... 10 times the force it previously warranted.  The effect of coolie and field hand squads on combat is quite significant at the smaller end of the scale. It doesn't much impact a division on division battle BUT it does tend to eliminate the " 1 NLF took 3 DEI bases in series over 1 week" syndrome that stock suffered from.

[Bliztk]

Is not that bad idea, but we are Allied Players and we have whining rights until 1/1/43 when the whining rights move to Japanese players [:'(]

Japan is more strong in this scenario, but as I move reviewing the Allied position I find more strenghs than in stock too.

We will have to wait until El Cid checks all the material for correction that I`m sending to him, but I think that this scenario is going to be very fun

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Well I presume it is intended to model unrepresented island ferries etc of the local economy plus an element of "requisition by bayonet" from every fishing village on the map.

I think that people are rushing far too quickly to judgement. You can't say it is "bullshit" until you know much more about it.

Let's be clear, moving an entire division using a single rowing boat capable of taking 6 men per trip ( plus 2 oarsmen), with each trip taking 2 hours, is NOT bullshit!!! It is unfeasibly slow and easily countered but it isn't bullshit. It is an option for those who believe its advantages outweigh its disadvantages ( or those desparate enough to try anything), not a good option but an option.

So, really this all boils down to how much can be moved over a give time. El Cid, Mifune ( or anyone else), any news on this? ( Or the RHS manual... I have some free time this evening and would love to get stuck into it.)


FWIW I've run a couple of tests on Brunei and Soerabaja etc. These are SIGNIFICANTLY more difficult to take than in stock. Brunei, for example, instead of being attacked by a small NLF, now warrants, IMO, over 200 AV of troops... 10 times the force it previously warranted.  The effect of coolie and field hand squads on combat is quite significant at the smaller end of the scale. It doesn't much impact a division on division battle BUT it does tend to eliminate the " 1 NLF took 3 DEI bases in series over 1 week" syndrome that stock suffered from.

Just one thing. A division, even a Japanese division, consists of a lot more than soldiers. You're not going to transport an artillery piece or a tank on your little rowing boat.

[mogami]

Hi, I don't see a problem with this movement BETWEEN FREINDLY bases but to conduct offensive movement it is highly suspect to me. To own a ferry you must control both sides of the movement.  Where would the boats come from? Are the Japanese bringing them from outside the SRA or are the Allies leaving them behind?
 
One of the primary causes of the great famine in India after Japan captured Burma was the British seized all the Indian small boats to prevent their being used by Japan. Thus along with the rice imported from Burma the Indian population lost their native fishing industry.  I don't think these "ferries" would be left behind for the Japanese to use.
I can see combat engineers being able to some degree support movement across water but some of these streams on map are over 60 miles.  (It's the same as saying the German Army could have crossed the channel and invaded England without any naval requirements)

[DuckofTindalos]

That's one big honkin' Bailey Bridge...[8|]

[Bliztk]

Obviously Mogami is right, and adding a House Rule stating that the ferry is only usable if a side controls BOTH shores would be fine

[Nemo121]

Hmm, I don't think there's any "obviously" about it.

If Mogami can explain away transports hitting battleships and escaping unscathed then, given the infinite weirdness of war, I don't think an all-encompassing "one must always hold both sides of a ferry to benefit" rule fits. This is especially true since we haven't actually gotten solid information about what the capacity of what are called HCF or LCF really is in-game.
 
Now, if that capacity is high then a house rule might well be reasonable but if that capacity is low then no house rule may be needed.
 
 
Overall though I'm reminded of a clever man who once said that he know his job as a mediator was accomplished when both sides to the negotiations howled equally loudly about how unfair he'd been to their side .
 
Since the 2 Allied players here are bemoaning certain decreases in Allied capabilities and I'm bemoaning some decreases in Japanese capabilities I think the balance "at setup" may be just right... I know that after reviewing China I'm just scratching my head as to how to conduct any sort of ground offensive to a succesful conclusion. So I'd say that probably balances the Allied "gees, everything's at 33% strength" complaint

[mogami]

Hi, I guess I should first ask "what is the point to scenario?"  Balance? or historical accuracy?
 
China was out of whack in stock scenario both concenring balance and accuracy so if it is better in this mod that is great. But it has no connection at all to crossing water barriers by jet ski. 
 
If balance, I ask where was Japan having problems prior to these maps changes?
If history I ask "WTF?"
 
If a scenario is balanced then a game between players of equal skill will see DEI holding out till April or May 1942.  If Japan is able to more often conclude operations before Feb then mod is weighted in favor of Japan. If Allies hold out into June or longer then mod is too much in favor of Allies.   (OK I'm simply taking the historical time and saying a good Japanese could cut a month or so from time while a good Allied player could add a month or so)
 
I will point out you can't "balance" a scenario without changing the data bases for the combat units.  (adding more Nates will only increase the number of Nates shot down unless you give them improved performance and then adding more Nates will unbalance the scenario.)  Subtracting 33 percent of TOE from starting units on a side that has been getting blitzed will not balance the scenario esp if you then allow the attacker more freedom of movement.
 
I'd call this mod "The Blitz Scenario"  Freed from worry over China Japanese players can devote all their enegry where it belongs.  Freed from worry over China and DEI Allied players can cower in Karachi, San Francisco and Pearl [X(]  (Turns should be real fast to make) 

[mogami]

"If Mogami can explain away transports hitting battleships and escaping unscathed then, given the infinite weirdness of war, I don't think an all-encompassing "one must always hold both sides of a ferry to benefit" rule fits. This is especially true since we haven't actually gotten solid information about what the capacity of what are called HCF or LCF really is in-game. "

Hi, Gosh you really are taking things too seriously. Tell you what. From now on when someone has a question you answer it. I'm sure when they ask "How do I, or why does? " and you say "because game is flawed" they will be satisifed and just go about their business.

I try to help people play the game.  AS IT EXISTS It don't try to explain away bugs I try to GET THEM FIXED. But most importantly I try to make the game do WHAT THE PLAYER wants it to do.  When a person does not get the result he expected and posts "WHY?" I try to explain how the result was obtained and what to do in the future to get the desired result.  That is what I did in your "transport versus BB".  You can blow off my response you can ignore it, you can mock it. But the next time one of your Bombardment TF encounters an enemy TF other then a surface combat TF and nothing remarkable occurs you'll know why. And if the enemy TF is a surface TF and your TF gets spanked, you'll know why.

Now of course some knucklehead bombardment TF commander is going to encounter a lone transport and spend all his time blasting it 250 times and then not bombard and we will be back to you posting "WTF?"  (That can also happen. WITP is not a game where a player can calculate in advance exactly what his units will do while executing his orders. The WITP players has to understand that for any given operation there can be more then 1 result. 20 Japanese players doing the exact same turn 1 would produce a wide range in results for every specific action while turn resolved.  There is no "do this  and get this result" formula for WITP.

So you must operate in the "results will vary from this to that"  and then understand why a specific result was obtained for that specific incident.
Just run a historic turn 1  100 times and watch the results at Wake. sometimes it falls 100-1 and sometimes it wipes out Japanese attackers.  The players never know what the random seed is going to do that impacts a specific result.

(when they don't get the one they expected they post "game is broke" threads and I then have to go explain the game is fine but their understanding of how it works is not as complete as they thought.l )

[Nemo121]

AS IT EXISTS It don't try to explain away bugs I try to GET THEM FIXED.

Hmm, some might say that you also seem to engage in all manner of embracement of statistical outliers as lying within 1 standard deviation of the norm. No need to fix something if it can be explained away by saying "its an outlier"... Of course by their very nature computer programmes tend to spurn outliers. Now, of course, in this game of verbal masturbation you can respond by pointing out that there will always be some outliers. I grant you that. however, your responses to possible bugs smack of labelling as outliers far too often for me to take them at face value anymore.

But the next time one of your Bombardment TF encounters an enemy TF other then a surface combat TF and nothing remarkable occurs you'll know why.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Except of course for the fact that when said bombardment TF came back to play again with even LESS ammo on board and ran into a larger transport TF it proceeded to wipe the floor with said TF despite the fact that it was, yet again, on a bombardment mission. So, in even more favourable circumstances for AKs getting a few hits against low on ammo, fatigued BBs the programme behaved as one would expect reasonable and the AKs got spanked.

So, your response relies on statistical outliers historically and also statistical outliers within the game itself. Responses which habitually rely on statistical outliers to justify situations are, as any statistician or epidemiologist would tell you, unreliable.

Now of course some knucklehead bombardment TF commander is going to encounter a lone transport and spend all his time blasting it 250 times and then not bombard and we will be back to you posting "WTF?"

No, that's simply what you would like to anchor my response as being in order to make your point. If I had a bombardment TF which blasted a lone AK many times and sank it and had thus used up so many ops points that it had to turn and flee to safety without bombarding that would be explainable both historically AND in terms of documented game mechanics. It wouldn't require us to fall back on ahistoricity an statistical outlier as justification.

So you must operate in the "results will vary from this to that" and then understand why a specific result was obtained for that specific incident.

I do. If you remember back I posted the initial result and posted that it amused me. I made no big deal about it. I only responded further AFTER you took issue with my aside re: the amusing result and went about justifying the combat result. In short, I am reacting because I do not accept the validity of the "outlier" defence when used as often as you use it.

By its very definition the outlier defence can only be used to defend outliers which are, again by definition, rare. As such the defence can only be used rarely or it is being improperly used to defend more than outliers. You use that defence commonly, as such, I am suspicious of it. Nothing personal, just the application of objective statistics. And FWIW I agree with you that many people go "WTF" about game mechanics giving the "wrong" result when they actually have, unknowingly, input an order which will never give them the result they desire. On the other hand you can't go around explaining most of these things away using variants of the "outlier" defence and expect to maintain credibility. That's not personal, its just statistics.

[Mifune]

I hope this clarifies the ferry issue to a degreee: a High Capacity Ferry is usually a road - so it moves supplies as a road does. this is not entirely documented - so I cannot answer in points - but it is worth 5 points on the 100 point scale (when you reach 100 points you get ZERO supplies period).

a Low Capacity Ferry is always a trail - so it moves supplies as a trail does. This is not documented either, but it is worth 20 points on the 200 point scale.

A HCF or LCF crossing is a slow crossing for land units. It is NOT a amphibious assault - and it is much slower than one. But it is also "free" in terms of not needing any ships you play with. It is as if the army seizes some small vessels - and uses them - just as really happens in real life. IJA - for example - seized and used over ten THOUSAND ferries, small western vessels, junks and native craft. It is not easy to defend an easily crossed point - and the enemy does

[Mifune]

The RHS Handbook is a pdf file. Which I can not PM to you Nemo. If you are interested e-mail me. Bliztk this obviously holds true for you as well.