Talonsoft and Matrix

[scope dope]

Back when talon soft was going strog, I bought most of their games.
West front, East Front II, Rising Sun Gold, Chcikamauga, Antietam, Bull Run, Prelude to Waterloo, 12 O;clock High, Gettysburg, Age of Sail II, Waterloo, Napoleon in Russia, Battle of Britian, Divided Ground, Bulge, Shiloh,The Art of War - Century of Warfare

As Matrix takes over and upgrades thes software packages, is there anynplan to give us a price break on the upgrades or do we have to face the full price again[&:]

[Erik Rutins]

Yes, the upgraded Battleground, Gary Grigsby and Campaign Series games will be sold in bundle packs that will come out to significantly less per title than TalonSoft/Take 2 was selling them for right before we bought them.

Regards,

- Erik

[jchastain]

I think you misunderstood the question Erik.  I think he was asking if the specific people who bought the games previously would receive a discount for the updated package - not whether the price overall was being reduced.
 
SD - I do not think they will be able to offer such discounts.  I really doubt there is any list of previous purchasers anywhere.  And building the process to apply the discount, whether it is building technology to access that non-existant list in the middle of the order process or even worse whether it is the manpower to accept faxes of disk copies or receipts or whatever else and then manually apply discounts to orders (which would really have to be applying partial refunds unless they also build the technology to "hold" orders if you somehow tell the system you'll be sending something in), would be too costly to be justified through any reasonable business case.  I too purchased many of those old games and would love to receive a discount on re-purchases, but I just do not believe it will be practical for them to offer such a discount. 
 
Besides, many companies release sequeals now where they do not give credit to people who bought the first effort.  EU2, HOI2, and likely even Matrix's own GGWaW:aWD.  In this case, Matrix didn't even own these games the first time around.  Is it really reasonable of us to expect them to provide a discount for the sequel when people don't even do that when they themselves received the proceeds from the first release?  Like I said, I would love it.  But it seems like a stretch to me.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

I have seen this question put out several times in several locations, and I always have to wonder...

Why should Matrix Games be expected to sell THEIR release cheaper, just because SOMEELSE sold them an earlier copy?

Talonsoft no longer exists, it's just a label.

And Matrix Games isn't Take2 the last time I checked.

So, just because I bought TOAW CoW from Take2, shouldn't mean a single thing to Matrix Games.

Now, I think it is cool that some of the titles/series will be offered as cash friendly bundles. I might like to get a Campaign series bundle if it will offer a unified once only install of the whole series especially if all the known patches are incorporated, and if it is more likely to like WinXP a tad better.
Currently I can run them, but, I would like the graphics issues updated so I didn't have to fiddle with them myself.

[jchastain]

Les -
It's not that outrageous of a question. If I own MS Office 2000, I don't have to pay full price for an upgrade to Office XP. There was even a time, back when Microsoft had competition, that I could get a competitive upgrade by showing that I bought other software that competed with Office but that was written and sold by a competing company.

Since these games are built on top of code that we already paid for, I think it is reasonable to ask for a discount. Even when products are sold between companies, it is common for the buyer to offer discounts for upgrades to previous owners. Not only is there not a prevailing business practice of paying full price the second time around, I would say that such an approach is actually in the minority. Only with games do we see that happening on a frequent basis.

All that said, I do not believe we will get discounts as prior purchasers for all the reasons I discussed above. But I don't think there is any reason to feign shock that anyone should ask what is actually a rather logical and completely understandable question.

[JSS]

ORIGINAL: jchastain

Les -
It's not that outrageous of a question. If I own MS Office 2000, I don't have to pay full price for an upgrade to Office XP. There was even a time, back when Microsoft had competition, that I could get a competitive upgrade by showing that I bought other software that competed with Office but that was written and sold by a competing company.

Since these games are built on top of code that we already paid for, I think it is reasonable to ask for a discount. Even when products are sold between companies, it is common for the buyer to offer discounts for upgrades to previous owners. Not only is there not a prevailing business practice of paying full price the second time around, I would say that such an approach is actually in the minority. Only with games do we see that happening on a frequent basis.

All that said, I do not believe we will get discounts as prior purchasers for all the reasons I discussed above. But I don't think there is any reason to feign shock that anyone should ask what is actually a rather logical and completely understandable question.

Sorry Dude, but the question is offbase. Your analogy is not a good one. A better analogy would be that you bought a '99 Corvette at a Chevy dealer in Nashville, now you want to buy a '07 Corvette in Atlanta and expect the Atlanta dealer to care that you bought one from someone in Nashville.

If Matrix had purchased Take2 outright then its a valid question... but they didn't and the question is not realistic.

[jchastain]

ORIGINAL: JSS

Sorry Dude, but the question is offbase. Your analogy is not a good one. A better analogy would be that you bought a '99 Corvette at a Chevy dealer in Nashville, now you want to buy a '07 Corvette in Atlanta and expect the Atlanta dealer to care that you bought one from someone in Nashville.

If Matrix had purchased Take2 outright then its a valid question... but they didn't and the question is not realistic.

Actually your analogy is quite off. You are describing the purchase of a physical asset rather than the license of intellectual property. But even in your corvette example, you'd still get a trade-in value when you turned in your old vette. [;)]

Upgrade offers abound and are fairly common, so I don't intend to get sucked into a debate on the topic. It appears we'll just have to disagree on whether the question was reasonable - not that it really matters.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

I think it's safe to say, MS can apply those manner of perks in a manner that can only be consider application of economic muscle.

Matrix Games on the other hand, we should be thankful they were even in a position to afford wishing to keep the titles afloat.
To many, the titles are old, dated software, that some might think should just be allowed to fade away.

But we fans, often will say, "gee if you want a great game, you want (insert old title here)". The trouble of course being, how does the new proto fan get the game if it's no longer being produced anywhere.

Most diehards though, will not object to getting a better made version of an old game. If it means you have to purchase a game, that in some ways to the diehard fan, seems a bit too much like an expensive patch, that's just the price you're going to have to pay, to enjoy seeing new fans get their first copy for the first time.

Matrix Games, they simply don't have MS magnitudes of cash to work with, regardless of how "good" they look compared with other wargame publishers. I wouldn't be expecting any of the other names we know that produce wargames, to offer them for anything less than what Matrix Games is selling them at.

[ravinhood]

Isn't it amazing how many people flock to mmorpg games (WoW has over 6 million subscribers now, Lineage I & II about the same thru both games) and pay $15 a MONTH to play the SAME GAME over and over and over again on a daily/nightly basis and we (yes I included) complain about a 10 year old title that's probably going to cost less as a whole than the games did individually. We truely are grogs here, well most of us, Les excluded cause he never complains (hehe). Even those mmorpgs to get NEW content you have to PAY for it thru expansion paks (@$30 a pop). But, it's still the same game, basically the same thing only at higher levels of difficulty.

I've finally seen the illusion that they are and gawd I put nearly 5 years into Everquest and of course bought every damn one of the other mmorpgs that tried to copy Everquest. Dark Age of Camelot, Star Wars Galaxies (I liked this one a lot till they screwed it up and 100,000 jedi's were running around), Anarchy Online (another good one after patches), Ultima Online, paid $50 for one of the packages and played less than 30 minutes. Afer playing Everquest UO looks like crap. (lol, yes graphics mattered then), Lineage I another craptastic UO clone with more emphasis on pvp and player killing than UO another less than 30 minute game, Everquest II was my last pay to play mmorpg I purchased and it is craptastic also. I don't understand why so many have this "must group to see ALL the content" bs in them. Can you believe I didn't even buy WOW!! Though I did get to play it and see it in action (local friends) I just saw it like I finally saw all the rest, just a real life money and time sink and going nowhere and gaining nothing and most especially you lose everything when you leave them. $15 a month doesn't seem like much when you think about it singularly, but, it adds up over time. For me most of those games were between $10-$14 a month subscriber fees, so taking just an average of $12 a month ($144) times 5 years I spent nearly $720 just on monthly fees alone for ONE GAME. And that's not counting I had TWO accounts so that makes it $1440 just on monthly fees on basically just ONE game. I had Everquest accounts while I played other mmorpgs as well, thus a THIRD account going, adding another near $700 to the subscription rate. So roughly $2100 in a five year period for basically the SAME game, just a different graphics look. (Matrixgames folks wouldn't you love that kind of income from ONE customer on just ONE game?)

Now the ole excuse that $15 isn't nothing compared to going out to eat or a movie or blah blah blah, but, fact is people paid that $15 a month AND STILL went out to eat and movies and blah blah blah. They just needed and used that excuse that $15 a month is a fair price for what you get. I say the hell it is. Not for the SAME game over and over and over again. If that is so true let's all give Matrixgames $15 a month for just one of their games. Don't care which one, just pick one. It will be the same principle as a mmorpg. Play the same game for as long as you like everyday/everynight and give Matrixgames $15 a month while doing so. AND when you stop paying Matrixgames $15 a month then you must delete the game (or sell it on ebay like a lot of people did with most of their mmorpg games) and never play it again until you start giving Matrixgames $15 a month again.

So, while I do complain about pricing and lack of anything NEW to play, value wise, whatever you buy from Matrixgames, HPS, Shrapnel, Battlefront and all the rest, one things for certain, you'll only pay ONCE for the main game and no monthly fees afterwards. There are BIG BIG BIG savings playing OFFLINE games with no monthly fees. You do the math, have any of you (that are normal) spent over $2100 on games in the past 5 years?? I know I haven't even come close to that figure (since leaving mmorpgs pay to play). But, even if you have, take a look at what you got for $2100 vs just ONE game that you must play online and when you quit paying, you lose everything you earned.

So, in a way I'm sorta with Les on this one. If you want the "improved" editions of these Talonsoft titles, the hit to your pocket book is nothing compared to what you pay to play a mmorpg. I'll probably pickup the Civil War Campaign series at least anyways.

Oh btw if you're going to play an mmorpg or mmo or corpg online and just must play online and have strangers to talk to and play with, get "Guild Wars", it's a one time fee main game is like less than $30 now and you can play it for as long as you like and never pay anymore monthly fees. Only if you continue with the series do you pay any extra for the SAME game. They are going a different route and are trying to make a sequel every 6 months with new characters, new story and new skills to play. I rather enjoy the pvp part of it. All players basically being equal and only your intelligence and player skill matter over power and equipment.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Online games, man I am so glad I have never given a damn about this stuff.

I have a buddy constantly trying to get me to join in by playing via one of his spare accounts.

But even free, I just don't find them entertaining.

I'm still healing after several years of playing Magic the Squadering way to much heheh.

[andym]

Ok to use another analogy,in the UK we will soon ONLY have digital TV,so you WILL have to upgrade your TV or buy a settop box to view,and nobody is getting a discount for the new equipment![:'(]

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

ORIGINAL: andym

Ok to use another analogy,in the UK we will soon ONLY have digital TV,so you WILL have to upgrade your TV or buy a settop box to view,and nobody is getting a discount for the new equipment![:'(]

This won't make you feel better, but they are not just doing that in the UK. The services are not planning to care if you can't afford to upgrade, it will just happen.

Fortunately, I am on the internet, and won't have to care. It will just mean I cancel my satellite and watch EVERYTHING via download till my tv gets old enough it's worth replacing. I figure it will last another 10 years.

[rhondabrwn]

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Online games, man I am so glad I have never given a damn about this stuff.

I have a buddy constantly trying to get me to join in by playing via one of his spare accounts.

But even free, I just don't find them entertaining.

I'm still healing after several years of playing Magic the Squadering way to much heheh.

I took a course called "Game Simulations in Education" a few years ago. Four of us (all female) were the only School of Education students who took it. The other 25 were all guys who signed up for an easy credit talking about games. The Phd candidate teaching the course got right into the spirit of things as he "high fived" the guys over their latest PS2 games and so forth. One of us dropped the class, the other three stuck it out for the credit though the course was totally worthless. The title should have been "A History of Computer Gaming" because that is what it was... there was no discussion or content centering on how to use games in an educational environment.

Oh yea, we had one class devoted to "why gals don't like to play video games" - oh, that was enlightening [8|]

One of the guys, though, confessed that he had gotten so addicted to Everquest (he was a top ranked player) that he was playing virtually all of his waking hours, blew his college courses, lost his job, got kicked out of Indiana University, and had been clawing his way back to sanity (and financial stability) ever since. He had sworn off "Everquest" and similar games forever and limited himself to Playstation type games, mostly sports.

Thank God we have never lost a WiTP player to that fate... or have we? [:D]

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Rhonda, you sure make a difference on the forum.

I would love to have seen some of the course material play out.
Hope you didn't actually PAY for the course.

I've seen a female make a logical choice in a game, where so predictably a guy would simply think with his tool, I have to say, some days I really hate my gender.

[rhondabrwn]

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Rhonda, you sure make a difference on the forum.

I would love to have seen some of the course material play out.
Hope you didn't actually PAY for the course.

I've seen a female make a logical choice in a game, where so predictably a guy would simply think with his tool, I have to say, some days I really hate my gender.

Well thank you!

And I did have to pay for that stupid course - about $300!

Oh yea, and get this... for a "final project" I designed a complete Gettysburg game that looked and functioned a bit like the Mad Minute Bull Run games. The guys came up with projects like creating a coach "Bobby Knight" avatar for Everquest or Unreal Tournament or something like that... sheesh!

I do agree that in a time of emergency or stress, a woman will often pull herself together and coldly and steadily make the logical choice when a man might panic or react irrationally. It's all sterotypes in a sense, but that is the way I prefer to see myself.

When I was about 8 years old a pan of grease caught fire in our kitchen. My dad was running around flapping kitchen towels and trying to throw a lid over it while I calmly walked to the cabinet, got out a box of baking soda, and then proceeded to throw it on the fire, extinquishing the blaze, and leaving my dad totally dumbfounded that I had known what to do and had handled things so calmly. [:D]

A couple of years later he cut his thumb open trying to cut the lid off a steel drum and came in the house with blood flowing all over the place. Dad never could stand the sight of blood and was ready to pass out. I got the thumb under cold water, grabbed the first aid kit, threw on some antibiotic ointment, slapped on a gauze pad and wrapped the wound, got him to the guest bed room and then called an ambulance. I was 10 years old at the time.

It doesn't make me "Ripley" in the Alien movies or anything, but not bad for a little girl, eh?

Anyway, I love you guys (even the grouchy ones).

[Zap]

And you have a lot of patience (a virtue women demonstrate better than men for the most part) to put up with that professor who wasted your time and money. I most probably would have made a comment to him after the course was completed and my grade was given. He has a PHD and does did not even take the course serious how unprofessional.

[rhondabrwn]

ORIGINAL: Zap

And you have a lot of patience (a virtue women demonstrate better than men for the most part) to put up with that professor who wasted your time and money. I most probably would have made a comment to him after the course was completed and my grade was given. He has a PHD and does did not even take the course serious how unprofessional.

Oh yea, my post-course evaluation form did not pull any punches! I roasted this guy and he never taught this particular course again, though he is now a Phd and is teaching at some university (possibly University of Wisconsin, that sounds right). He and a friend started a wargaming site called "joystick101.org" which is still around, but only the friend, Jon Goodwin, seems to be running it.

[pasternakski]

This just in from the "Prevention of Pseudointellectual Prevalence Panel (PPPP)":

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

This just in from the "Prevention of Pseudointellectual Prevalence Panel (PPPP)":

To quote Martha Stewart "And that's a good thing"

[liuzg150181]

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

Oh yea, my post-course evaluation form did not pull any punches! I roasted this guy and he never taught this particular course again, though he is now a Phd and is teaching at some university (possibly University of Wisconsin, that sounds right). He and a friend started a wargaming site called "joystick101.org" which is still around, but only the friend, Jon Goodwin, seems to be running it.

A bit off-topic,but i just visited the site which you had mentioned and it seems it is just a general gaming site, not pertaining to wargaming from its title and content?