New WiP 2 ?

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
Heck, sonny, I tried this stuff (Metamucil) long ago. I'm a regular Roto-Rooter customer now...

TMI, old boy. TMI.

[Onime No Kyo]

Its all about the shock value, dt.

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

Its all about the shock value, dt.

So, you're saying that Pasternakski just launched an unsuccessful Shock Attack against me?

[Onime No Kyo]

I'd say it was pretty successful. [;)]

[ladner]

pasternakski bring up a good point about the AI, or lack thereof.  I think SSG does a good job with their AI for the decisive battles series of games, and they seem to be making an effort towards putting together a competent AI.  Frankly, I have neverly really been impressed by the AI from any Garry Girgsby games, even going back to the old SSI games. 
I don't recall the AI every doing anything brillant in Kampfgruppe, Panzer Strike of, Typhoon of Steel, these were of course the distant relatives of Steel Panthers, which again don't recall any particular brillance from the AI.   On the operational level, War in Russia, you could win as the Germans, the main diffiuclty being just the vastness of Russia itself, not the AI.  In contrast I remember that SSG had a Eastern Front operational war game that was of a different sort in that you gave your armies orders, but you had no control over how the individual corps (or armies for the soviets) would move.  In that game the AI could throw some surprises your way.
 
Anyhow, I would like to see a whole theatre World War II game with the level of detail of WitP.  Not paricularly the WitP engine, just a game that approaches the level of detail.  The surface naval combat could be left as is, with just a few minor tweaks, most importantly interception at sea.  The air-to-air combat model, would need some adjustments, not sure how the Combined Bomber Offensive (CBO) would be implemented.  The CBO had an effect on Germany, that cannot be denied, in particular how industry was forced to disperse so that it was not possible to gain the efficiencies and econmies of scale of having large factories like the Allies, for example Ford's Willow Run plant.  Land combat needs a lot work, I really looked forward to the next installment of WIR to see how things would be handled.  
 
Needless to say that since the next WiR has been further delayed it makes me rather unhappy, in particular since it seems too much focus is on the GGWAW series of games, and the Civil War spin off.  I guess these are cash cow products, since they have more mainstream appeal.  Ultimately if they lead to 2by3 having enough resources to continue working on the serious wargames, I should be happy, but seems that 2by3 has changed it's focus with regard to product lines, and the serious type games such as UV/WitP/WiR are getting short shrift.

[RevRick]

Prunes and bran flakes will never replace a good hex grid.

Seriously - I'd been for some time considering how a mechanism could employ a naval level operational screen, such as WitP, and then when land combat is required, shift into a more appropriate scale tactical screen. It would be a huge game, but a lot of work has already been done on the topography in most of the WWII battlefields already, and there just isn't a whole lot in some of the atolls to display. But the CBI theater would become a really intense game for those who like land warfare

[Sardonic]

I would like to see a version with a realistic ground module.

[ladner]

I don't see how 2by3 can really improve the ground combat for the current engine. Some sort of redesign would have to be done. I don't think we will get any type of decent 'simulation' of land warfare until the War in Russia remake is complete, so the probably will be like 2009/2010.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: ladner

I don't see how 2by3 can really improve the ground combat for the current engine. Some sort of redesign would have to be done. I don't think we will get any type of decent 'simulation' of land warfare until the War in Russia remake is complete, so the probably will be like 2009/2010.

Well, I'd like to see some adjustments ade to the all or nothing ZOC rules. At least allow movement between hexes with friendly units in them...no need to assume that in every case the enemy has divided/isolated the friendly units.

[ladner]

I agree with you regarding ZOC. Likewise there needs to be some concept of a 'front', for how can one division exert a ZOC across an entire 60 mile hex? If you incorporate the concept of a front it could go a long ways towards 'fixing' groung combat.

For example, using the six sides of hex

using 1 as N
using 2 as NE
using 3 as SE
using 4 as S
using 5 as SW
using 6 as NW

if a unit is facing N, and is attacked from that direction, it is able to defend at full efficiency, conversely if it flanked, it defends but not a full efficiency. Also there should be some concept of unit density, to form an effective defensive line across a hex face should require a certain number of units, an inability to due so should degrade the overall effectiveness of the defence and give the attacker a degree of operational manuevre. Further terrain would great impact, both on unity density to form a front, and on manuevre, for example mountainous terrain with limited passes for crossing could be effectively defended by a few units.

This system and if coupled with an orders system, such as flanking attack, defend, reserve (rest), reserve (active unit counterattacks), could go a long way towards making ground combat more realistic. Currently the forces meet and are able to exert the full effect of any non-disrupted squads/AFV/guns, which is not realistic. Further there is no ability to encircle, or pocket an enemy, within a hex. If one thinks about it, the entire German 6th Armee was pocketed in an area that would fit into a 60 mile hex.

Of course my ideas are more tailored towards creating every grognard's fantasy a full across the globe WW2 simulation, with the level of detail of WitP. I accept that there has to be a certain level of abstraction within a game, but there are items that require serious work, for a WitP2, or the WiR in terms of the current model of ground combat as implemented in WitP.

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: ladner

I accept that there has to be a certain level of abstraction within a game, but there are items that require serious work, for a WitP2, or the WiR in terms of the current model of ground combat as implemented in WitP.

I believe WiR will be based upon the WoW system and be nothing like WITP.

Flipper

[ladner]

I have heard the same, that 2by3 was designing a completely new engine based upon the work from GGWaW.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

So we will had another Beer and Pretzel game like GGWaW instead of good strategy like WitP?

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Too bad that's such a long way off now...

Yeah, you know? You're a succinct kind of guy, T, and I like that. What you got goin' on Saturday night, sweetheart? We could be succinct together...

A lot of people have talked here about how many games have covered the European theater. Let's take a look at what actually has been done. RTS failures and silliness. Area movement pretenses. Nothing really new.

I look back on "clash of steel - future edition" as maybe the best attempt that was ever made. It is horribly flawed. GGWiR? Horribly old. AH Third Reich? Still fun to this day, but desperately in need of a rework - and I don't mean "Oooh, let's add some pretty graphics and moddability and tactical combat and then we can all go off and have a slumber party" either.

Anybody got a good 'un from recent times? I don't think so.

[Terminus]

Panzer General (the first one) was pretty good for its time, but after that it went pear-shaped pretty quick...

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: ladner
Needless to say that since the next WiR has been further delayed it makes me rather unhappy, in particular since it seems too much focus is on the GGWAW series of games, and the Civil War spin off.  I guess these are cash cow products, since they have more mainstream appeal.  

Great post, particularly since you acknowledge the wonderfulness of that hamsterhead we all know as "posterfloozie."

I am being forgotten by Matrix/2by3. They don't seem to remember that I am one of the primary reasons they came into existence in the first place.

I speak also for my ilk (my elk will have to speak for himself, but you won't get much sense out of him - he's shortly to be jerked), which may be at least three or four people by now. I am terribly disappointed not only with computer wargame design in general these days, but with the current approach adopted by a company that still has, as part of its masthead, the phrase, "The glory in wargaming is back."

Oh well. Anybody up for a nice game of chess?

[VSWG]

pasternakski,

you will like the following article by Warren Spector (a famous game designer) about the future of the gaming industry (in general, not only wargames). In my opinion, he's right on spot with his criticism of the current gaming industry:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/37/4

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: VSWG
you will like the following article by Warren Spector (a famous game designer) about the future of the gaming industry

I hope I will, although to be honest with you I have never heard of him. Do you have a list of credits for him that I can access independently, and can you guarantee me that clicking on this link will not expose me to the various kinds of Internet harm that can befall you these days? "Escapist Magazine" is a name I neither recognize nor trust.

I never click on anything anymore.

[VSWG]

Video Games worked on

• Wing Commander (1990), ORIGIN Systems
• Wing Commander: The Secret Missions (1990), ORIGIN Systems
• Ultima VI: The False Prophet (1990), ORIGIN Systems
• Bad Blood (1990), ORIGIN Systems
• Wing Commander II: Vengeance of the Kilrathi (1991), ORIGIN Systems
• Wing Commander: The Secret Missions 2 - Crusade (1991), ORIGIN Systems
• Ultima: Worlds of Adventure 2: Martian Dreams (1991), ORIGIN Systems
• Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss (1992), ORIGIN Systems
• Ultima Underworld II: Labyrinth of Worlds (1993), ORIGIN Systems
• Wing Commander: Privateer - Righteous Fire (1993), ORIGIN Systems
• Ultima VII, Part Two: Serpent Isle (1993), ORIGIN Systems
• Ultima VII, Part Two: The Silver Seed (1993), Electronic Arts
• Wings of Glory (1993), Electronic Arts
• System Shock (1994), Looking Glass Technologies
• CyberMage: Darklight Awakening (1995), ORIGIN Systems
• Crusader: No Remorse (1995), ORIGIN Systems
• Thief: The Dark Project (1999), Looking Glass Studios
• Deus Ex (2000), Ion Storm Austin
• Deus Ex: Invisible War (2003), Ion Storm Austin
• Thief: Deadly Shadows (2004), Ion Storm Austin

Spector is usually credited as a producer, except for Deus Ex on which he is also credited as project director.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_spector

But I guess you don't trust wikipedia either... [;)]

[VSWG]

The link is safe. Now go click it!