Hi all,
I have been trying to work out the best way to escort strike flights and AEW patrols with fighters. I dont see any missions in the mission editor that are relevant to escorts plus it seems too fiddley to launch a seperate fighter group and try to fly them alongside a strike group.
I know I can add fighters into the strike group in the mission editor, but I was concerned that in doing so they would try to behave as strike aircraft, or return to base because of an in-appropriate ammunition loadout for the target. If I added fighters to the strike group would they behave as escorts for the bombers?
My aim from learning this is to allow me to effectivley escort a strike group of super etendard aircraft to their exocet launch point and back home again.
Thanks in advance
Airstrike Escorts
Moderator: Harpoon 3
RE: Airstrike Escorts
IMO, the short answer would be:
This is one of those situations that is better handled manually.
Long answer:
You are quite correct in your assumption that if you add fighters to your "Strike" missions, they would probably act like Strikers more than Escorts. In some of the scenarios I have written, I have done exactly what you suggest. I did it because I wanted the fighters to accompany the bombers to the target. I have found the use of other Mission types such as "AAW Area Patrol" often leaves the bombers exposed.
Now, the problem with placing Fighters on the Strike missions is that they often want to strafe the targets. Not all databases allow strafing attacks, but the PlayersDB does. Therefore, after your Strikers release their Exocets, the fighters will want to continue and strafe the ships! This is like sending a boy out with a peashooter to hunt an elephant when your Crusaders try and attack the Slava. [:D]
Now, if you try to set up an Area AAW Patrol mission, the fighters are often drawn off on targets deemed higher priority by the AI. Remember, when you set up a Mission, you are giving de facto control over to the AI to do as it is programmed. Often, this is not Exactly what you want it to do. [;)]
So, if your fighters start chasing after ASW helos or Bear reconnaissance aircraft instead of protecting your Strike elements, don't say you weren't warned... [:'(]
FilesOfScenShare 
This is one of those situations that is better handled manually.
Long answer:
You are quite correct in your assumption that if you add fighters to your "Strike" missions, they would probably act like Strikers more than Escorts. In some of the scenarios I have written, I have done exactly what you suggest. I did it because I wanted the fighters to accompany the bombers to the target. I have found the use of other Mission types such as "AAW Area Patrol" often leaves the bombers exposed.
Now, the problem with placing Fighters on the Strike missions is that they often want to strafe the targets. Not all databases allow strafing attacks, but the PlayersDB does. Therefore, after your Strikers release their Exocets, the fighters will want to continue and strafe the ships! This is like sending a boy out with a peashooter to hunt an elephant when your Crusaders try and attack the Slava. [:D]
Now, if you try to set up an Area AAW Patrol mission, the fighters are often drawn off on targets deemed higher priority by the AI. Remember, when you set up a Mission, you are giving de facto control over to the AI to do as it is programmed. Often, this is not Exactly what you want it to do. [;)]
So, if your fighters start chasing after ASW helos or Bear reconnaissance aircraft instead of protecting your Strike elements, don't say you weren't warned... [:'(]
FilesOfScenShare RE: Airstrike Escorts
ORIGINAL: hermanhum
IMO, the short answer would be:
This is one of those situations that is better handled manually.
Long answer:
You are quite correct in your assumption that if you add fighters to your "Strike" missions, they would probably act like Strikers more than Escorts. In some of the scenarios I have written, I have done exactly what you suggest. I did it because I wanted the fighters to accompany the bombers to the target. I have found the use of other Mission types such as "AAW Area Patrol" often leaves the bombers exposed.
Now, the problem with placing Fighters on the Strike missions is that they often want to strafe the targets. Not all databases allow strafing attacks, but the PlayersDB does. Therefore, after your Strikers release their Exocets, the fighters will want to continue and strafe the ships! This is like sending a boy out with a peashooter to hunt an elephant when your Crusaders try and attack the Slava. [:D]
Now, if you try to set up an Area AAW Patrol mission, the fighters are often drawn off on targets deemed higher priority by the AI. Remember, when you set up a Mission, you are giving de facto control over to the AI to do as it is programmed. Often, this is not Exactly what you want it to do. [;)]
So, if your fighters start chasing after ASW helos or Bear reconnaissance aircraft instead of protecting your Strike elements, don't say you weren't warned... [:'(]
Good answer I think thats going to save me alot of grief and frustration despite being a longer handed way of doing it.
I'm going to give that a go right now [:)]
RE: Airstrike Escorts
Hey Stalin,
Escorting a strike:
Most of the time I use concurrent plotted missions and manually plot them in. Can usually set them up the way I want them and have pretty good control over what weapons are fired and when to RTB. The only time I ever attach to the original mission is a huge scenario where I might have too much going on thus must leave the AI to deal with it.
Strafing
I only let them strafe in situation where its very unlikely they'll get shot down. Most of the value is in the bombload and to be honest the rates of fire on the guns are a little off so you might get some strange results. So I'll bomb them, maybe make a pass or two if its seems realistic to do so...then send em home to rearm with the good stuff [;)]
Do what you like though. Lot of the fun of the game is playing with ideas and seeing what happens.
Escorting a strike:
Most of the time I use concurrent plotted missions and manually plot them in. Can usually set them up the way I want them and have pretty good control over what weapons are fired and when to RTB. The only time I ever attach to the original mission is a huge scenario where I might have too much going on thus must leave the AI to deal with it.
Strafing
I only let them strafe in situation where its very unlikely they'll get shot down. Most of the value is in the bombload and to be honest the rates of fire on the guns are a little off so you might get some strange results. So I'll bomb them, maybe make a pass or two if its seems realistic to do so...then send em home to rearm with the good stuff [;)]
Do what you like though. Lot of the fun of the game is playing with ideas and seeing what happens.
RE: Airstrike Escorts
So the best way to get an organised well escorted flight package, is to launch individual groups of aircraft leave the groups to loiter nearby while I launch the other groups then organise and adjust them using speed and course changes. That makes sense.
I guess I hoped too much for the abilities of the mission editor, I was quite excited about the idea of setting up a mission and just letting them get on with it, insted of micromanagement. Which is something I wanted to avoid with the aircraft to some degree, as pilots should be capable of making their own decisions [:)]
But if thats just the way it is thats fine, i'll just get on and play!
And on the point of strafing that is something I definatley would want to avoid, and will try to stop any aircraft doing it if I can! [:)]
I guess I hoped too much for the abilities of the mission editor, I was quite excited about the idea of setting up a mission and just letting them get on with it, insted of micromanagement. Which is something I wanted to avoid with the aircraft to some degree, as pilots should be capable of making their own decisions [:)]
But if thats just the way it is thats fine, i'll just get on and play!
And on the point of strafing that is something I definatley would want to avoid, and will try to stop any aircraft doing it if I can! [:)]
RE: Airstrike Escorts
Hey All,
In a way, the fact that you have to micromanage missions is one of the reasons I like Harpoon.
As a commander in a real conflict, yes you would turn over operational control to the executing unit, but you would have to live with any dumb moves they may make. Kinda like entrusting an H3 mission to the AI.
In H3, you micromanage by taking manual control over units, thus ensuring they do what you want. But in any scene that is medium size or so, you will overwhelmed with engagements, much as a real commander would, and then the OpFor will make you pay.
Makes H3 life interesting.
In a way, the fact that you have to micromanage missions is one of the reasons I like Harpoon.
As a commander in a real conflict, yes you would turn over operational control to the executing unit, but you would have to live with any dumb moves they may make. Kinda like entrusting an H3 mission to the AI.
In H3, you micromanage by taking manual control over units, thus ensuring they do what you want. But in any scene that is medium size or so, you will overwhelmed with engagements, much as a real commander would, and then the OpFor will make you pay.
Makes H3 life interesting.
Jeff Krump
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
-Sir Winston Churchill-
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
-Sir Winston Churchill-
RE: Airstrike Escorts
ORIGINAL: jkruny
Hey All,
In a way, the fact that you have to micromanage missions is one of the reasons I like Harpoon.
As a commander in a real conflict, yes you would turn over operational control to the executing unit, but you would have to live with any dumb moves they may make. Kinda like entrusting an H3 mission to the AI.
In H3, you micromanage by taking manual control over units, thus ensuring they do what you want. But in any scene that is medium size or so, you will overwhelmed with engagements, much as a real commander would, and then the OpFor will make you pay.
Makes H3 life interesting.
Thats quite a good way of thinking about it. Good post.
I'll take that into account [:)]
RE: Airstrike Escorts
ORIGINAL: Stalintc
So the best way to get an organised well escorted flight package, is to launch individual groups of aircraft leave the groups to loiter nearby while I launch the other groups then organise and adjust them using speed and course changes. That makes sense.
Yes, thats the pattern[;)]
I guess I hoped too much for the abilities of the mission editor, I was quite excited about the idea of setting up a mission and just letting them get on with it, insted of micromanagement. Which is something I wanted to avoid with the aircraft to some degree, as pilots should be capable of making their own decisions [:)]
The static missions (ASW for example) are carried out a bit better than a human ever could especially in terms of laying out sonobouy patterns and other repetative tasks. The dynamic one's (strike, etc) are doable but better left micromanaged as they are more complex in nature.
BTW anybody even notice the new behavior with ships on a recon mission?Pretty nice stuff
RE: Airstrike Escorts
On the point of static missions such as CAP, it would be nice to be able to loop a group of waypoints, insted of using reference points. I would be a little more happy launching my own combat air patrols manually and looping their waypoints, other wise I would have to keep recreating their waypoints. (errr unless there is already a way of doing it and I missed it in the manual[8|])
But yes ASW is definatley left to the AI, unless you are using Orions or any other fixed wing ASW aircraft, I find its better to look after them myself.[:)]
But yes ASW is definatley left to the AI, unless you are using Orions or any other fixed wing ASW aircraft, I find its better to look after them myself.[:)]
RE: Airstrike Escorts
ORIGINAL: Stalintc
On the point of static missions such as CAP, it would be nice to be able to loop a group of waypoints, insted of using reference points. I would be a little more happy launching my own combat air patrols manually and looping their waypoints, other wise I would have to keep recreating their waypoints. (errr unless there is already a way of doing it and I missed it in the manual[8|])
Thats a great idea. Can actually see oval and 8 patrol patterns occuring like this. Please do suggest this when the opportunity arises. The guys are pretty good about following up on that kind of stuff.
But yes ASW is definatley left to the AI, unless you are using Orions or any other fixed wing ASW aircraft, I find its better to look after them myself.[:)]
Always like setting the Orion's to an ASW patrol mission. Set patrol areas up to about 15nm to get good sonobouy patterns. Seems to work out pretty good.
ASW helicopters I normally set to sub strike missions as that is how most work in real life. Ship sensors (hopefully a towed array) gets the initial detection (true or CZ), helo then launches (per substrike mission) to localize and prosecute.
RE: Airstrike Escorts
Thats a great idea. Can actually see oval and 8 patrol patterns occuring like this. Please do suggest this when the opportunity arises. The guys are pretty good about following up on that kind of stuff.
You bet! I would like nothing more that to leave aircraft on a patrol I have designated with looping waypoints. I will mention when I can [:)]
Always like setting the Orion's to an ASW patrol mission. Set patrol areas up to about 15nm to get good sonobouy patterns. Seems to work out pretty good.
ASW helicopters I normally set to sub strike missions as that is how most work in real life. Ship sensors (hopefully a towed array) gets the initial detection (true or CZ), helo then launches (per substrike mission) to localize and prosecute.
Hehe I guess we differ on the orions.
But with the ASW helicopters thats good advice, ill keep that in mind [8D]
RE: Airstrike Escorts
I guess I must be the real "cowboy" in ASW, then. [:D]
I never set any ASW patrols. I just position either a helo or an MPA near the force waiting to pounce on the first contact. Often times, I don't even put a helo into the air until the sub fires. When it fires, the helo spools up right away and runs down the bearing of contact to the sub. After four or five "dips" / sonobuoys, I usually have the sub localized and under attack.
I confess, this is both a downright dangerous and an "exciting" tactic. The only time that it sometimes fails me is if the sub is using very capable torpedoes like the ADCAP. Otherwise, I almost always sink the sub without loss.
FilesOfScenShare
I never set any ASW patrols. I just position either a helo or an MPA near the force waiting to pounce on the first contact. Often times, I don't even put a helo into the air until the sub fires. When it fires, the helo spools up right away and runs down the bearing of contact to the sub. After four or five "dips" / sonobuoys, I usually have the sub localized and under attack.
I confess, this is both a downright dangerous and an "exciting" tactic. The only time that it sometimes fails me is if the sub is using very capable torpedoes like the ADCAP. Otherwise, I almost always sink the sub without loss.
FilesOfScenShare RE: Airstrike Escorts
Yes cowboy or a down right dirty pokerfaced gambler when it comes to ASW, it sure sounds like it [:)]
Not that im criticising it sounds like it works just great! [8D]
Not that im criticising it sounds like it works just great! [8D]
RE: Airstrike Escorts
Yeah don't really care how anybody else plays either. Is nice to post how I do as erroneous as it can be sometimes[;)]
RE: Airstrike Escorts
I too tend to try and set up ASW patrol zones with fixed wing a/c when available, and set rotary a/c on a unit/task force into a substrike mission.
If I have more than 1 rotary a/c with dipping sonar in a group, I'll set one up in the formation editor on an ASW patrol, and set the other on a substrike mission. This leaves a coverage gap while the patrol a/c lands and refuels however.
If I have more than 1 rotary a/c with dipping sonar in a group, I'll set one up in the formation editor on an ASW patrol, and set the other on a substrike mission. This leaves a coverage gap while the patrol a/c lands and refuels however.
Jeff Krump
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
-Sir Winston Churchill-
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
-Sir Winston Churchill-