Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion

[Froonp]

Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1a (33,52) (Borger)
Country / Finland
Modification to make / Reason : No more Finnish borderlands; Become Finnish.
Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2

Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1b (34,52) (Borger)
Country / Finland
Modification to make / Reason : No more Finnish borderlands; Become Finnish.
Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2

Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1c (33,54) (Borger)
Country / Finland
Modification to make / Reason : No more Finnish borderlands, Become Russian.
Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2

For the Finnish borderlands, I wanted to stress the fact that Nils and I had it this way so that a 4 factor moving leg Finnish unit could not cut the Murmansk Rail between the Ladoga and Onega Lakes in 1 Impulse if the Finnish Borderlands were Russian controlled, when Finland declares war to Russia.
It seems to us that the reason for the Russians to demand this territory was something like that, to help prevent the Fins to cut their Murmansk Railway to easily.

[wfzimmerman]

This ballot is too complicated for me (I must live in Florida or Ohio!), but I vote YES for anything that increases the historical or geogrpahic accuracy of either map.

I am married with two kids, don't have a regular WIF board game, and expect to play MWIF exclusively. I don't care about game play being identical to legacy WIFFE.

ORIGINAL: Froonp

The proposed modifications are :

Name of modification : Gothenburg (41,38) (lomyrin)
City, Minor Port / Sweden
Modification to make / Reason : it is one of the largest ports in Sweden and the main Swedish West Coast port - definitely a major port.
Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 4

Name of modification : Karlskrona (44,42) (lomyrin)
Major Port / Sweden
Modification to make / Reason : it is primarily a Navy base and definitely only a minor port.
Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2

Name of modification : Strait from Copenhagen to Malmo (45,38 E) (c92nichj)
Strait / Sweden
Modification to make / Reason : Keep
Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2

Name of modification : Strait from Copenhagen to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (45,38 NE) (c92nichj)
Strait / Sweden
Modification to make / Reason : Add.
Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 1

Name of modification : Strait from NW of Copenhagen to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (44,38 E) (lomyrin)
Strait / Sweden
Modification to make / Reason : Add. Straits are between the Dannish town of Helsingor and the Swedish minor port of Helsingborg.
Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 1

Name of modification : Glacier Svartisen (26,41) (Borger)
Terrain / Norway
Modification to make / Reason : This glacier is placed close to Swedish border. Move the ice 1 hex SE.
Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2

Name of modification : Tromsø (Tromso) (21,46) (Borger)
Minor Port / Norway
Modification to make / Reason : For supply reasons.
Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 3

Name of modification : Bodø (Bodo) (26,41) (Borger)
Minor Port / Norway
Modification to make / Reason : For supply reasons.
Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 3

Name of modification : Lake Mjøsa (Mjosa) (36,38 E, NE) (Borger)
Lake / Norway
Modification to make / Reason : Add.
Vote YES : 0.66666666666666663 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.33333333333333331 / # Voters : 3

Name of modification : Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger)
Lake / Norway
Modification to make / Reason : Removed.
Vote YES : 0.25 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.75 / # Voters : 4

Name of modification : Vänern () (c92nichj)
Lake / Sweden
Modification to make / Reason : The outline needs enhancing
Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2

Name of modification : Vättern (40,40 SE) (c92nichj)
Lake / Sweden
Modification to make / Reason : Extended 1 hexside SW.
Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2

Name of modification : Clear hex (34,39) (Borger)
Terrain / Norway
Modification to make / Reason : Changed to Mountain.
Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2

Name of modification : Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 1 (26,46) (Borger)
Resource / Sweden
Modification to make / Reason : Move 1 hex NW.
Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2

Name of modification : Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 2 (24,45) (c92nichj)
Resource / Sweden
Modification to make / Reason : Move 1 hex SE.
Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2

Name of modification : Boden (27,46) (Borger)
Minor Port / Sweden
Modification to make / Reason : Renammed Luleå (Lulea).
Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2

Name of modification : Turku (37,46) (Borger)
Minor Port / Finland
Modification to make / Reason : Add. Second largest Finnish city.
Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2

Name of modification : Åbo (?) (lomyrin)
Minor Port / Finland
Modification to make / Reason : Add. Second largest city in Finland.
Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2

Name of modification : Tampere (35,47) (Borger)
City / Finland
Modification to make / Reason : Add. Third largest city.
Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2

Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 1a (33,45) (Borger)
Terrain / Finland
Modification to make / Reason : Become land hex with most of the hex being sea.
Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2

Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 1b (35,45) (Borger)
Terrain / Finland
Modification to make / Reason : Become land hex with most of the hex being sea.
Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2

Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 2 (36,45) (Borger)
Terrain / Finland
Modification to make / Reason : Become all Sea.
Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2

Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1a (33,52) (Borger)
Country / Finland
Modification to make / Reason : No more Finnish borderlands; Become Finnish.
Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2

Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1b (34,52) (Borger)
Country / Finland
Modification to make / Reason : No more Finnish borderlands; Become Finnish.
Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2

Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1c (33,54) (Borger)
Country / Finland
Modification to make / Reason : No more Finnish borderlands, Become Russian.
Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2

Name of modification : Sognefjord () (Incy)
Terrain / Norway
Modification to make / Reason : Drawn too wide.
Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2

Name of modification : Mountain hex (35,37) (Incy)
Terrain / Norway
Modification to make / Reason : Changed to Forest.
Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2

Name of modification : Railroad Gothenburg-Stockholm () (c92nichj)
Rail / Sweden
Modification to make / Reason : Add. Passes between Vänern and Vättern. From Gothenburg the rail would go E;NE;NE;E and join with the other rail.
Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2

[c92nichj]

Name of modification : Strait from Copenhagen to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (45,38 NE) (c92nichj)
Strait / Sweden
Modification to make / Reason : Add.
Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 1

Name of modification : Strait from NW of Copenhagen to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (44,38 E) (lomyrin)
Strait / Sweden
Modification to make / Reason : Add. Straits are between the Dannish town of Helsingor and the Swedish minor port of Helsingborg.
Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 1

My first option should actually be the same as Lars. I want two straits, one between Malmö and Copenhagen and one between Helsingborg & Helsingör

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Here is some info about Tampere:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampere

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

The proposed modifications are :

Name of modification : Gothenburg (41,38) (lomyrin)
City, Minor Port / Sweden
Modification to make / Reason : it is one of the largest ports in Sweden and the main Swedish West Coast port - definitely a major port.

Here are my votes. YES

Name of modification : Karlskrona (44,42) (lomyrin)
Major Port / Sweden
Modification to make / Reason : it is primarily a Navy base and definitely only a minor port.

YES

Name of modification : Strait from Copenhagen to Malmo (45,38 E) (c92nichj)
Strait / Sweden
Modification to make / Reason : Keep

YES

Name of modification : Strait from Copenhagen to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (45,38 NE) (c92nichj)
Strait / Sweden
Modification to make / Reason : Add.

NO

Name of modification : Strait from NW of Copenhagen to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (44,38 E) (lomyrin)
Strait / Sweden
Modification to make / Reason : Add. Straits are between the Dannish town of Helsingor and the Swedish minor port of Helsingborg.

YES

Name of modification : Vänern () (c92nichj)
Lake / Sweden
Modification to make / Reason : The outline needs enhancing

YES

Name of modification : Vättern (40,40 SE) (c92nichj)
Lake / Sweden
Modification to make / Reason : Extended 1 hexside SW.

YES

Name of modification : Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 2 (24,45) (c92nichj)
Resource / Sweden
Modification to make / Reason : Move 1 hex SE.

NO. I think it's best to have the iron ore resources in 2 separate hexes.
But it's not so important I would object if you make the centre one a
3 resource hex.

Name of modification : Sognefjord () (Incy)
Terrain / Norway
Modification to make / Reason : Drawn too wide.

YES. Definitely. The Sognefjord looks weird now. The 2 hexes south of the
Sognefjord must have more land and less sea. I think this can easily be
corrected without changing anything, but the coastal hexes.

Name of modification : Mountain hex (35,37) (Incy)
Terrain / Norway
Modification to make / Reason : Changed to Forest.

YES

Name of modification : Railroad Gothenburg-Stockholm () (c92nichj)
Rail / Sweden
Modification to make / Reason : Add. Passes between Vänern and Vättern. From Gothenburg the rail would go E;NE;NE;E and join with the other rail.

YES

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Name of modification : Gothenburg (41,38) (lomyrin) Yes
Name of modification : Karlskrona (44,42) (lomyrin) Yes
Name of modification : Strait from Copenhagen to Malmo (45,38 E) (c92nichj) Yes
Name of modification : Strait from Copenhagen to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (45,38 NE) (c92nichj) No
Name of modification : Strait from NW of Copenhagen to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (44,38 E) (lomyrin) Yes
Name of modification : Glacier Svartisen (26,41) (Borger) Yes
Name of modification : Tromsøø (Tromso) (21,46) (Borger) Yes
Name of modification : Bodøø (Bodo) (26,41) (Borger) Yes
Name of modification : Lake Mjøøsa (Mjosa) (36,38 E, NE) (Borger) No opinion
Name of modification : Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) No opinion
Name of modification : Väänern () (c92nichj) Yes
Name of modification : Väättern (40,40 SE) (c92nichj) Yes
Name of modification : Clear hex (34,39) (Borger) Yes
Name of modification : Iron ore of Gäällivare & Kiruna 1 (26,46) (Borger) Yes
Name of modification : Iron ore of Gäällivare & Kiruna 2 (24,45) (c92nichj) Yes
Name of modification : Boden (27,46) (Borger) Yes
Name of modification : Turku (37,46) (Borger) Yes
Name of modification : ÅÅbo (?) (lomyrin) Moot point, same as Turku
Name of modification : Tampere (35,47) (Borger) Yes

I need to see a picture to vote intelligently on the next 3:
Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 1a (33,45) (Borger) ?
Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 1b (35,45) (Borger) ?
Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 2 (36,45) (Borger) ?

For the next 3, I agree with the compromise Nils and Patrice reached that prevents Finland from cutting the rail line during the first impulse of war.
Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1a (33,52) (Borger) No
Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1b (34,52) (Borger) No
Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1c (33,54) (Borger) No

Name of modification : Sognefjord () (Incy) Yes
Name of modification : Mountain hex (35,37) (Incy) Yes
Name of modification : Railroad Gothenburg-Stockholm () (c92nichj) Yes

I would like to change the names of the Finnish cities to the Finnish names. There aren’t that many of them and it is similar to what we did in China. I do not want to do this in the rest of the world though! Can you imagine? All the cities of the world with Finnish spellings!

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
For the Finnish borderlands, I wanted to stress the fact that Nils and I had it this way so that a 4 factor moving leg Finnish unit could not cut the Murmansk Rail between the Ladoga and Onega Lakes in 1 Impulse if the Finnish Borderlands were Russian controlled, when Finland declares war to Russia.
It seems to us that the reason for the Russians to demand this territory was something like that, to help prevent the Fins to cut their Murmansk Railway to easily.

Isn't it possible for Russia to prevent this by placing some units and use the ZOC's. Russia had some units here to protect their borders. And if a lone Finnish unit plunges deep into Russia then it can be put out of supply if there are Russian units south and north of it. Of the 3 changes I proposed for the Karelia territory I think the 1 hex being part of Russia and not Karelia won't have a negative effect.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

ORIGINAL: Froonp
For the Finnish borderlands, I wanted to stress the fact that Nils and I had it this way so that a 4 factor moving leg Finnish unit could not cut the Murmansk Rail between the Ladoga and Onega Lakes in 1 Impulse if the Finnish Borderlands were Russian controlled, when Finland declares war to Russia.
It seems to us that the reason for the Russians to demand this territory was something like that, to help prevent the Fins to cut their Murmansk Railway to easily.

Isn't it possible for Russia to prevent this by placing some units and use the ZOC's. Russia had some units here to protect their borders. And if a lone Finnish unit plunges deep into Russia then it can be put out of supply if there are Russian units south and north of it. Of the 3 changes I proposed for the Karelia territory I think the 1 hex being part of Russia and not Karelia won't have a negative effect.

I should really let Nils and Patrice discuss this in more detail, but ...

Their analysis looked at several Finnish units with a movement allowance of 4, supported by an HQ, moving around Lake Lagoda and threatening Leningrad from the southeast. While they would not succeed in taking Leningrad, their presence would change the dynamic of the Finnish-USSR frontline - primarily by giving the Finns a defensive position along the Svir river between lake Lagoda and Lake Onega, if nothing else. The extra hex or 2 for the Finnish Borderlands makes that more difficult to do.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I should really let Nils and Patrice discuss this in more detail, but ...

Their analysis looked at several Finnish units with a movement allowance of 4, supported by an HQ, moving around Lake Lagoda and threatening Leningrad from the southeast. While they would not succeed in taking Leningrad, their presence would change the dynamic of the Finnish-USSR frontline - primarily by giving the Finns a defensive position along the Svir river between lake Lagoda and Lake Onega, if nothing else. The extra hex or 2 for the Finnish Borderlands makes that more difficult to do.

I understand this about the 2 Finnish hexes inside Karelia I was talking about. But the
northeasternmost hex inside today's Karelia could easily be placed inside Russia (thus meaning it always remains part of Russia). It makes the Karelia part look a little bit better. Is there a reason why this are needs to be part of Finland BEFORE they cede Karelia to Russia. I don't think Finland ever had territory that far east.

[c92nichj]

I would like to change the names of the Finnish cities to the Finnish names. There aren’t that many of them and it is similar to what we did in China. I do not want to do this in the rest of the world though! Can you imagine? All the cities of the world with Finnish spellings!

I would object to this, the more internationally accepted names during WWII was the Swedish versions of the names, Finland, Åbo, Helsingfors, Hangö, Tammerfors, Viborg as the dominant force in the administration had been Swedish since the 10th century, people like Mannerheim was swedish for example a decendant from the Swedish king Johan the III.

During the latter part of the 20th century the government became more dominated by the finnish people and the finnishification(?) increased in strength this is why the Finnish version of the names are more common in modern maps.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Here is some information about Luleå:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lule%C3%A5

Here is information about Boden:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boden_Municipality

As you can see Boden is an inland town with just 20.000 inhabitants.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I need to see a picture to vote intelligently on the next 3:
Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 1a (33,45) (Borger) ?
Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 1b (35,45) (Borger) ?
Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 2 (36,45) (Borger) ?

Maybe Froonp can draw an alternative coast line according to my suggestions? What I meant to be the best solution would be to do the following:

* The hex with the letter M (2x NW + W of Hanko) should become an all sea hex.
* The hex NW+W of Hanko should be less land and more water. Meaning the coast line should be moved to the middle of the NE hex side.
* The hex with the letter N (2x NW of Hanko) should be a land hex with a coast line
drawn from the middle of the SW hex side (to align with the coast line in the hex
mentioned above) to the current NE hex side.

Then the coast line can be maintained northwards towards Vaasa. It will create a
straight vertical line and the "bay" effect south of Vaasa will be removed.

I hope Froonp can create this in a nice way.

About the Finnish cities. The spelling is Finnish (Swedish).

* Helsinki (Helsingfors)
* Viipuri (Viborg) Today the name is Vyborg (Russian Выборг)
* Hanko (Hangö)
* Turku (Åbo)
* Tampere (Tammersfors)
* Vaasa (Vasa)
* Oulu (Uleåborg)
* Petsamo (Petsamo) Today the name is Pechenga (Russian Печенга)

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

ORIGINAL: Froonp
For the Finnish borderlands, I wanted to stress the fact that Nils and I had it this way so that a 4 factor moving leg Finnish unit could not cut the Murmansk Rail between the Ladoga and Onega Lakes in 1 Impulse if the Finnish Borderlands were Russian controlled, when Finland declares war to Russia.
It seems to us that the reason for the Russians to demand this territory was something like that, to help prevent the Fins to cut their Murmansk Railway to easily.

Isn't it possible for Russia to prevent this by placing some units and use the ZOC's. Russia had some units here to protect their borders. And if a lone Finnish unit plunges deep into Russia then it can be put out of supply if there are Russian units south and north of it. Of the 3 changes I proposed for the Karelia territory I think the 1 hex being part of Russia and not Karelia won't have a negative effect.

I was in favor of this too (preventing a 4 mover to cut the rail in surprise impulse) because the Scandinavia map of Wif FE does not allow this neither.
I did not want to give Germany an extra edge in this area.

[Froonp]

I understand this about the 2 Finnish hexes inside Karelia I was talking about. But the
northeasternmost hex inside today's Karelia could easily be placed inside Russia (thus meaning it always remains part of Russia). It makes the Karelia part look a little bit better. Is there a reason why this are needs to be part of Finland BEFORE they cede Karelia to Russia. I don't think Finland ever had territory that far east.

I would agree with that.
I change my vote for this hex.

[Froonp]

Maybe Froonp can draw an alternative coast line according to my suggestions? What I meant to be the best solution would be to do the following:

* The hex with the letter M (2x NW + W of Hanko) should become an all sea hex.
* The hex NW+W of Hanko should be less land and more water. Meaning the coast line should be moved to the middle of the NE hex side.
* The hex with the letter N (2x NW of Hanko) should be a land hex with a coast line
drawn from the middle of the SW hex side (to align with the coast line in the hex
mentioned above) to the current NE hex side.

Then the coast line can be maintained northwards towards Vaasa. It will create a
straight vertical line and the "bay" effect south of Vaasa will be removed.

I hope Froonp can create this in a nice way.

Here is what I came up with.
This illustrate the solution escribed above, which is the second solution Borger proposed.
The first solution globaly had the coastline westward 1 hexcolumn.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

I would like to change the names of the Finnish cities to the Finnish names. There aren’t that many of them and it is similar to what we did in China. I do not want to do this in the rest of the world though! Can you imagine? All the cities of the world with Finnish spellings!

I would object to this, the more internationally accepted names during WWII was the Swedish versions of the names, Finland, Åbo, Helsingfors, Hangö, Tammerfors, Viborg as the dominant force in the administration had been Swedish since the 10th century, people like Mannerheim was swedish for example a decendant from the Swedish king Johan the III.

During the latter part of the 20th century the government became more dominated by the finnish people and the finnishification(?) increased in strength this is why the Finnish version of the names are more common in modern maps.

I defer to your judgment on this.

From your explanation it seems the use of the Finnish names is more like using the Chinese name Beijing. Clearly I have no emotional stake in any of this. I just want the choice of names for cities to be the best we can do - with the guideline being for all names to be appropriate circa World War II. From the earlier discussion about Åbo and Turku I had gotten a mistaken impression.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I understand this about the 2 Finnish hexes inside Karelia I was talking about. But the
northeasternmost hex inside today's Karelia could easily be placed inside Russia (thus meaning it always remains part of Russia). It makes the Karelia part look a little bit better. Is there a reason why this are needs to be part of Finland BEFORE they cede Karelia to Russia. I don't think Finland ever had territory that far east.

I would agree with that.
I change my vote for this hex.

I follow in your footsteps, Patrice.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Maybe Froonp can draw an alternative coast line according to my suggestions? What I meant to be the best solution would be to do the following:

* The hex with the letter M (2x NW + W of Hanko) should become an all sea hex.
* The hex NW+W of Hanko should be less land and more water. Meaning the coast line should be moved to the middle of the NE hex side.
* The hex with the letter N (2x NW of Hanko) should be a land hex with a coast line
drawn from the middle of the SW hex side (to align with the coast line in the hex
mentioned above) to the current NE hex side.

Then the coast line can be maintained northwards towards Vaasa. It will create a
straight vertical line and the "bay" effect south of Vaasa will be removed.

I hope Froonp can create this in a nice way.

Here is what I came up with.
This illustrate the solution escribed above, which is the second solution Borger proposed.
The first solution globaly had the coastline westward 1 hexcolumn.

I like all the changes shown here.

[Froonp]

Here's how it looks on the maps.

[Froonp]

About maps, look here, you can have whichever you want, its simply great !!!!
http://maps.google.com/