I don't like being the "bad guys"...

[Punch]

Ok. This is a slightly odd post, I admit. Anyway, I've been playing COTA a bit recently and just the other day I noticed something weird about my play style.

Firstly, I'm really not a wargamer. I have no real history with the genre at all. And I normally lose. So when I pick up COTA it's not with any great plan in mind, it's just because I enjoy getting in and learning, in quite small increments, how the game is played.

What I've noticed though is that every time I play a game I automatically choose to play as the Allies. Which strikes me as odd, because there's no real personal connection within the game to the side that you're playing. And it's an extra step when all I really want to do is start the game as quickly as possible.

I think it's just because throughout my entire life the Axis have been "the bad guys", so even in a game as emotionally disconnected as COTA I just don't want to be playing as them. Given that I'm a product of Wolfenstein, Indiana Jones, The Blues Brothers (I hate Illinois Nazis... ) etc. I suppose this shouldn't be too surprising. I just thought it was kind of odd.

Anyone else find they just inherently prefer playing as "the good guys" even though, in the overall gameplay experience, it doesn't really make a difference?

[RayWolfe]

Ah, Mr Punch. It's because you are inherently bad and are trying to wash some of your sins by playing the good guys.
It won't work.

Your psychiatrist
ps, my bill is in the post.

[Plodder]

Funnily enough, I can quite happily play the axis unless the scenario has NZ troops(especially if it involves 26 Btn,Grandads old unit).Then I'll always choose Alllies, but in Eastern front games I pretty much play germans exclusively.

[Vince_Tooket]

German was our ennemy. But WWII was essentially a political war. Since all Germans are not nazi during this war and they have a long tradition of the war spirit, they do their orders without any regard of political decision. If we can contest the objectives of some scenario, some soldiers may have to do too. But, one interrest of wargame is to take the role of a commander. So what if you are German warrior, not necessarly convicted nazi, but you are in army and you intend to play you part in this war. If you have the military spirit you don't care if political decision is good or bad. The wermacht have always respected the rules of war and the teutonic knight's spirit. Like wargame don't simulate crime against humanity, there is no particular reason to not play as german. I don't think in war there is good and bad guy, all are bad guy but they have no choice. The bad guy are in the command or in the chain of the command.
But... The SchuztStafell (SS) due to their political endoctrination, can be considered all bad guy. I can understand that we have a dislike to play with this ****ng *****rds. But one more time we play a wargame with no political consideration, so SS are elite troops and have a part of elite troops in task force give some particular strategy. If some guys want to give a political aspect of WWII wargames, we can't prevent that but I think this a twist of the wargame spirit.
I like to play german for only one reason, their organisation and equipment allow deeper tactics.

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: RayWolfe
Ah, Mr Punch. It's because you are inherently bad and are trying to wash some of your sins by playing the good guys.

I think it's more a case of an innocent soul trying to hang on to that innocence by playing the "good guys" while being under the corruptive influence of Arjuna, the God of War [;)]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

P.S. Why did you put Bil in the mail ?

[Tomus]

I always play Allies as well, always have, for the same reasons. Even in Online games like COD or Red Orchestra I will usually always plump for the allied side.

I know there are a million reasons "they were just soldiers, most weren't nazi etc etc" but to me Brits, Americans and Sovs will always be the good guys and the Germans/Japanese will always be seen as the forces of darkness.

[RayWolfe]

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
I think it's more a case of an innocent soul trying to hang on to that innocence by playing the "good guys" while being under the corruptive influence of Arjuna, the God of War [;)]

No, it's more fundamental than that. Mr Punch was found guilty of beating his wife (not necessarily always wrong) and of throwing the baby out of the window (acceptable in some circumstances). BUT what is not acceptable, is to allow his dog to run off with the sausages.
Of course, I accept your point that he could have been under the influence of "He Who Must Be Obeyed"; we know what a corruptive influence that can be.

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
P.S. Why did you put Bil in the mail ?

To try to curb his "realism enthusiasm". Try to say that after a bottle of shiraz.
Cheers
Ray

[Analog Kid]

I find myself playing Allies first, then after several times thru, Ill play the Axis on some. Like Tomus, it seems unnatural to me to play as Hun, after all they were the Enemy of the Free World.
 
S! AK

[Vince_Tooket]

ORIGINAL: Tomus

I know there are a million reasons "they were just soldiers, most weren't nazi etc etc" but to me Brits, Americans and Sovs will always be the good guys and the Germans/Japanese will always be seen as the forces of darkness.

You sense of good and darkness is very limited. All is not good or all is not bad. We cannot do the benefit to someone without doing bad thing to anotherone. The good is tied to the bad. Hitler didn't made his horible politic in the only goal to make the bad, in his mind he have wanted to do the best for his people. In the demacratian philosophy it is bad. The truth of good and bad is only a relative point of view.

[Crimguy]

MOre than a few historians would take issue with these statements . . .

ORIGINAL: Vince_Tooket

German was our ennemy. But WWII was essentially a political war. Since all Germans are not nazi during this war and they have a long tradition of the war spirit, they do their orders without any regard of political decision. If we can contest the objectives of some scenario, some soldiers may have to do too. But, one interrest of wargame is to take the role of a commander. So what if you are German warrior, not necessarly convicted nazi, but you are in army and you intend to play you part in this war. If you have the military spirit you don't care if political decision is good or bad. The wermacht have always respected the rules of war and the teutonic knight's spirit. Like wargame don't simulate crime against humanity, there is no particular reason to not play as german. I don't think in war there is good and bad guy, all are bad guy but they have no choice. The bad guy are in the command or in the chain of the command.
But... The SchuztStafell (SS) due to their political endoctrination, can be considered all bad guy. I can understand that we have a dislike to play with this ****ng *****rds. But one more time we play a wargame with no political consideration, so SS are elite troops and have a part of elite troops in task force give some particular strategy. If some guys want to give a political aspect of WWII wargames, we can't prevent that but I think this a twist of the wargame spirit.
I like to play german for only one reason, their organisation and equipment allow deeper tactics.

[Crimguy]

More than a few his . . . ahhh, nevermind.

ORIGINAL: Vince_Tooket

You sense of good and darkness is very limited. All is not good or all is not bad. We cannot do the benefit to someone without doing bad thing to anotherone. The good is tied to the bad. Hitler didn't made his horible politic in the only goal to make the bad, in his mind he have wanted to do the best for his people. In the demacratian philosophy it is bad. The truth of good and bad is only a relative point of view.

[Analog Kid]

Funny thing for me, when I do play German, the SS are my favorite troops to use. They are for the most part some pretty Bad A*S troops thru most of the war. Like a fine sword, elite troops are just cool to put into action.

This in no way endorses thier values/belief system [:)]

S! AK

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: Vince_Tooket
You sense of good and darkness is very limited. All is not good or all is not bad. We cannot do the benefit to someone without doing bad thing to anotherone. The good is tied to the bad. Hitler didn't made his horible politic in the only goal to make the bad, in his mind he have wanted to do the best for his people. In the demacratian philosophy it is bad. The truth of good and bad is only a relative point of view.

Vince,

I agree that throughout history and the human condition men have often seen things in a zero sum perspective - ie for me to win/progress someone else must lose/regress. However that does not need to be the case. Zero sum perspectives are usually the product of a lack of creativity or proferred as an excuse to fulfil some desire. In Hitler's case, if he had his people's best interest at heart he would have surrendered in 1943. But he didn't. And he had ample opportunity right up until he took the cowards way out in 1945. No I reckon he was in it for his own ego and it's the ego which sees things in zero sum perspective. It's a relative beast and one which we all must tame.

[Rooster]

ORIGINAL: Analog Kid

Funny thing for me, when I do play German, the SS are my favorite troops to use. They are for the most part some pretty Bad A*S troops thru most of the war. Like a fine sword, elite troops are just cool to put into action.

I feel this way too... I abhore the philosophy, but they definitely had all the cool gear and got into the harriest fights. [:D]

[Analog Kid]

Arjuna said

I agree that throughout history and the human condition men have often seen things in a zero sum perspective - ie for me to win/progress someone else must lose/regress. However that does not need to be the case. Zero sum perspectives are usually the product of a lack of creativity or proferred as an excuse to fulfil some desire. In Hitler's case, if he had his people's best interest at heart he would have surrendered in 1943. But he didn't. And he had ample opportunity right up until he took the cowards way out in 1945. No I reckon he was in it for his own ego and it's the ego which sees things in zero sum perspective. It's a relative beast and one which we all must tame.

I have taken a few college level sociological courses, which I recommend every one take. As well as some philosophy courses which I recommend everyone take, makes it hard not to respond in an off topic way to this. As well as a few beers . Forgive me please. Admin please delete. This is my personal belief, condendensed.

Arjuna's answer has triggered in me to respond to this. A much tought of subject for me, Ive not heard it put mathmaticly before. The Zero-sum theory,to simplify, I win you lose is much too narrow. It would mean that the otherside has value.To the ideologue, your society,your beliefs, if radically different enough, would mean your society/way of life, thinking has worth.

If you were to look at the essentialist philosophy ,and to paraphase Nietzsche, the most famous of the essentialists "God is dead, what's the point of exsitance", added to your or ignored(seek and you shall find/Question all) belief in God (if any) ,is the socialoligical view that we are indoctrinated by the society we live in (and our parents), is what defines what is right and wrong- Good or Evil.

If God donesnt exist or if your view of God (religion) or existance is radicalically different from those around you, then there is no win vs lose. There is only condemnation or extermination. It has happened in the past and is happening today all over the world. A ridgid belief system, condemns all who dont belive.

S! AK

[Vince_Tooket]

We can have a view of God and be totally in diasagreed (I'm not sure of the terms(sorry if not)) with the philosophy of our society. You can take the point of view of buddhist in exemple.
Something is sure: we cannot live without destroying life. Our body is made to absorb living organism to live (It doesn't mean that a society need to do the same thing), so with the philosophy of our society living become bad.
In my previous reply, I'm not refer to zero sum theory. The simply fact that population of earth growth and that we can produce (not only materials but also food) more than before prove that the sum of all ressources don't stay at zero level. The zero sum can be applied at universe level to the amount of energy, which, I think is the essence of the universe and so of God.

[Vince_Tooket]

1943 is to soon to surrender. The situation is not yet deseperate. Without Hitler's orders, the situation should certainly take another way.
Hitler was mentally deranged, and his take make worse when he command the final solution in 1941. We have to take in consideration this act that will influence all his military decision. When he has made this horrible **it, he must win at all of coast, without consideration of anybody. So that why he take part personally in plans of battles, and after command to fight to last man. His poor military ability (his better poker player than general) cause fall down of wermacht.

[sapper_astro]

A kindred spirit.

I find it next to impossible playing as the Germans if any Western Allied troops are present, especially Poms and ANZACS. Sometimes I can, but usually, no, hence why I am thinking of how to expand the Lamia scenario into an ongoing campaign (As allies).

On the Eastern front, I play as the germans....figure that one out.

[Grouchy]

In the begin I had problems playing the bad guys.
After meeting Ray, hearing his stories about his time in the army playing with 25pdrs, I always imagine Ray manning one of those allied 25pdr bty's.

I can tell you this guys....I'am having mucho fun now playing the bad guys [:'(]

[RedMike]

For me wargamming is not about politics, it's about tactical situations and I play any or all sides. I usually prefer the underdog.